I was talking to some fellow fanatics post AC 70.3 yesterday. Lots of crashes, which are easily attributable to the rain and bike concentration due to 3 laps. That said, I saw some really strong cyclists powering by me only to do really dumb things (like leaning into an apex at very high speed and discovering that a man hole cover isn’t nice to that in the rain, or a couple of other times blasting into a turn and then hitting the brakes during the turn…). Yard sale city!
Couldn’t help wondering if Zwift is amping the power/skill ratio and maybe leading to more accidents…
Considering all the people who claim they do 90+ percent of their riding indoors due to various reasons…I would not be surprised if those people are crashing more often during races. If they were someone who was already fast and rode a lot outdoors prior then I wouldn’t be so worried. But I think there is a good chunk of people who started as novice cyclists and would take technical areas very cautiously. Then they found indoor training and really ramped up their fitness without ramping up their handling skills to support their new found speed. Especially if the course is technical…and wet.
I don’t of course know if they were Zwifters and thats not what I said in my post. I, and a few others, were just speculating about whether or not the rise of a lot of indoor training might lead to it…what do you think?
Indoor riding yes … regardless of platform, and to be more specific, newer riders who have spent little time ever riding outside and / or in a group etc etc. and they are the ones causing the concerns on course
I saw a similar thing yesterday at Augusta. Super strong 60yo female passed me on a tight right turn, did not hold her line, pushed into my inside apex and drove me onto the shoulder. Then, 20 meters up, she quickly veered to her left to pass another competitor just as someone else started to pass on her left. She also turned a very high cadence, around 110, hips rocking all over the place and bike barely holding a line. Just looked really odd and unsafe. My immediate thought was that she must never ride outdoors. Her strength was impressive though.
I could see that. I’m not running out to match any data to a theory, but you tri guys do talk a lot about Zwifting and riding indoors pretty much only and then showing up to an event.
I’m about 50/50 indoor and outdoor with at least once a month being in a fast moving and aggressive group of riders.
You can’t ride any kind of bike race at the limit, even pacing a tri, if you don’t have handling skills.
That said it’s more than just a few things to, it’s many:
-not braking hard mid-turn
-hitting apexes
-missing metallic or large painted surfaces (pick your line)
-how to handle small skids and panic stops
-bunny hop a minor issue
-be able to load and unload your tires before hitting a pothole
I know people on here are scared of road riding, but it’s not a very nice thing to be doing that and then showing up ill equipped at a race.
Certainly you gain valuable necessary skills riding outdoors you cannot get riding indoors. But you can also miss out on valuable skills riding outdoors but only on roads you like to ride on and that don’t challenge your skills and only riding in nice weather. Personally that is why I think one scheduled group ride a week you never miss should be a key part of anyone’s cycling. Aside from the fitness benefits, it will make you ride on some roads you don’t pick and in all kinds of weather.
-not braking hard mid-turn
-hitting apexes
-missing metallic or large painted surfaces (pick your line)
-how to handle small skids and panic stops
-bunny hop a minor issue
-be able to load and unload your tires before hitting a pothole
It has nothing to do with Zwift. Triathletes in general have never been able to do those things.
Lack of these skills is never surprising in a BOP’er, but is surprising in a FOP’er and probably more dangerous with those people. Of course, those FOP’ers generally have no idea that they are lacking basic skills.
I think indoor training in general does lead to stronger more confident riders with shite handling skills. Disclaimer: I love my turbo and have used it to work on many aspects of my performance with great results. That said…
There are a few TTers and triathletes who primarily do their riding on turbos and who can’t hang in the road groups around here despite great w/kg. There handling and road instincts are pure shite. Not all, but most.
It is turning in to turbo season in this part of the world and I am already puckering thinking about those idiots around my on the road this spring who don’t know how to simply handle their bikes.
I guess Zwift is quite a strong word here but it might be true. Triathlete are already notoriously bad at bike handling, Sooo many T1 crash or any kind of crash, if rider spend 20% or less time on real bike then it can’t get better.
It goes in hand with the toxic behaviour of triathlon in general, full time job hard working people that add tons of training volume to feed pointless ambitions. It’s about the journey guys !
It used to be that you didn’t get to go play with the big boys with the big engines until you were asked, and had demonstrated that you could safely do it. That wasn’t a problem because the only way you got fast enough was to ride a lot with the slower groups. There was no “indoor” training, you rode outside, in all kinds of weather, and you became a competent bike handler at the same time you became a strong rider. Skill and power didn’t gap.
Now anyone with some motivation, the time, and the equipment, can get a much bigger engine than they have skills. We see this all the time in the club rides at the top end. Someone shows up that can climb with us but can’t hold his line, or doesn’t understand pace lining, etc. Those people are either tolerated carefully and corrected on the spot (if they are close) or told not to come back (if they are simply nowhere close). That has been causing problems for the club, but so far safety has won out over ego and bitching.
Even someone like me, that started out racing a Panasonic 500 in the mid 80’s with leather basket pedals and no helmet, still has to “get back in the groove” when I pull the bike off the trainer in March and go back out with the club. It doesn’t take long, but I have to understand that I can’t hand bottles back and forth at 20 mph right away, and I need to brake a little earlier and choose my lines a little more conservatively.
Add all this to the fact that we are talking about triathletes to start with, with bikes that handle like a Ugo, and it would not surprise me if we start seeing a lot more accidents. It’s easy to blame Zwift, but Rouvy and several other programs do the same thing.
How many of those people you talked to might not have been there at all from being hit by a car or crashed in training, but were there because they trained indoors instead?
How many of those people you talked to might not have been there at all from being hit by a car or crashed in training, but were there because they trained indoors instead?
^^^THIS^^^
I live in the city and don’t want to get killed by a car or killed by a human for my $$$ bike. Plus I have family and a job. It saves me 45 min of commuting somewhere safe each way.
nothing to do with zwift… I see the sketchyness all the time. In fact I was talking with a buddy at the rear of a recent group ride… both of us whining about the matches we have to burn because we are too far back. There are just a few riders and a few new ones I noticed that I just wanna stay clear from. My buddy is coming back from a pretty bad wreck so I get where he is coming from.
I could see that. I’m not running out to match any data to a theory, but you tri guys do talk a lot about Zwifting and riding indoors pretty much only and then showing up to an event.
I’m about 50/50 indoor and outdoor with at least once a month being in a fast moving and aggressive group of riders.
You can’t ride any kind of bike race at the limit, even pacing a tri, if you don’t have handling skills.
That said it’s more than just a few things to, it’s many:
-not braking hard mid-turn
-hitting apexes
-missing metallic or large painted surfaces (pick your line)
-how to handle small skids and panic stops
-bunny hop a minor issue
-be able to load and unload your tires before hitting a pothole
I know people on here are scared of road riding, but it’s not a very nice thing to be doing that and then showing up ill equipped at a race.
well I don’t know if I’ve ever tried bunny hopping while in aero. I’m maybe 40/60 or 30/70 indoor/outdoor. I’m not much into group riding as I haven’t done it that much but I’ve never had issues when I have done it. I would consider myself at least a semi-competent bike handler as I’m at least not erratic and I do actually practice holding a line. I know one issue is people tend to death grip the handle bars. just relaxing a bit helps a lot. I think also many people just aren’t actually paying attention to what’s ahead of them.
How many of those people you talked to might not have been there at all from being hit by a car or crashed in training, but were there because they trained indoors instead?
I don’t view OP as a knock against indoor training as a whole, and I am sure your claim has merit.
That said, it’s pretty obvious that shifting 75% of training time indoors is going to have impacts on real bike comfort. It’s just like cars; you can give a 17 year old a Corvette and they’ll just go crash it. Compare that to the kid who grew up karting and worked their way through a few slower cars learning how to handle it and they’ll be fine.
I don’t think it’s possible to ever really pin down how much of an impact Zwift et al has on handling abilities, but any reduction in TITS is going to have an impact.
Good point Jaret. I didn’t mean Zwifters specifically, but of course mean all the rest as well. I guess I titled it Zwift, because that’s what I’m on when I’m indoors. I even say to my wife, I’m going to Zwift now…a little bit like calling all clear tape scotch tape. Sorry bout that! Any thoughts on the general question?