Yasso question -- Am I killing myself?

Triathlon Forum
1

Did my second week (1 session per week) of Yasso’s, in preparation of a 1/2 mary in 4 weeks and a mary in March.

I know what “speed” you should be doing the Yasso’s at (your goal mary time, translated into minutes and seconds). While I’m doing 10 of them at this (fairly aggressive) goal pace, it’s tough. I’m in Zone 4 for the first few, but by the end my hr is up at Zone 5a and even a couple of Zone 5b. On a scale of 1-10, the last few in particular are about a nine.

Since I’m new to Yasso’s, am I competely doing them wrong, or is this the right way about it?

2

Maybe you’re goal pace is unrealistic?

Or you had a bad day training or were flat. Maybe nutrition, sleep and/or recovery were off. You could have placed the 800’s in a less optimal time during your weekly structure. Many answers to the same question.

What’s your marathon PR and what’s your goal for this one?

3

Given that I’m completely unqualified to give coaching advice, I’d still say that sounds too hard and that those intensities won’t give you the most bang for the buck (training adaptation vs. recovery time/chance of injury)

A lot of people have posted their experiences with Yasso 800s, and more than a few said that thee wasn’t a good correlation between Yasso 800 pace and race time.

4

Here’s where I get a few “you idiot” responses.

Never done a mary before. Did a half last year at 1:40, but still had a fair bit of gas in the tank (raced conservatively). I think I’m generally in better shape now, too.

My goal is to finish the marathon in 3:15 (yeah, I know…agressive for a schlub like me), so I’m running these suckers at about 9.3 miles per hour on a 1% incline on a treadmill. About 3:15 for each 800 metres (half mile).

EDIT: About 2.5 minutes recovery b/w each.

6

Sounds like you may be a bit ambitious. I think the Yasso idea is sound, but getting them done is tough. I’ve tried them a few times, but TEN 800s close to Zone 5 is more than I have ever done. But I run them too fast: I am more likely to do 6X800 at 2:40-2:45, which is too fast (for me) … I guess if I could hold back and do them at 3:00, I could work my way up to 10 … Anyway, a few of my marathon running friends and I favor:

  1. Mile repeats (5 or 6x1 mile) at 30 to 60 seconds faster than marathon pace with about 3 min. (400m) jog in between.

  2. Running at marathon pace or a bit faster (tempo-ish) during the middle and/or end of a longish run. Example: 15 mile run, first 5 easy (get progressively faster) then miles 5-13 at marathon pace, last 2 easy cool down.

I’m no expert, but after 4 marathons and a lots of halfs, it seems those workouts work better than 800s … good luck!

7

I think you should be working up to 8-10 of them at your goal marathon pace, not starting at 10. I’ve used Yasso’s in the past for marathon training, and it seems to have worked for me - every time except for once I hit my goal time. And the last couple of 800s in each workout were really hard - hit my maximum HR. So I don’t think you’re doing them wrong, necessarily, but I don’t think you should start out doing 10 of them.

8

The idea is to work up to 10 800’s. The idea is to have a 400 recovery jog between the intervals. The interval speed shouldnt be an all out sprint but rather a strong pace using a similar running action to your normal running style (not a 100 sprint style).

We just had Bart Yasso out for a party and speech last weekend. He is a very interesting charactor. He had a slide show from different races throughout the world - it was very funny. If you have the chance to hear him speak, dont miss it.

9

Like others have said and will continue to say, there is no substitute for frequency and mileage. A 1:40 half (even if you could have gone 1:35) makes a 3:15 a tall order, IMO. I run 1:21 for the half, but still haven’t been under 3 hours in a marathon. The culprit? Mileage: The most I run is 55 mpw, when I know I need to put in a half dozen 60-70 mile weeks. So I probably shouldn’t be giving advice.

10

I’ve used the Yasso 800’s and they are a good workout. They also give you a fairly realistic idea of what kind of shape you are in. If you ran a 1:40 half and plan to run a 3:15 marathon (which it sounds like will be your first, but I may be mistaken), I think that goal is not very realistic. So, the Yasso 800’s at 3:15 may be too hard.

The Yasso 800’s are also predicated on the fact that you have been doing the long runs for the aerobic base. And doing ten for your second session is quite a bit.

All that being said, I can’t interval train nearly as fast on a treadmill as on a track. Something about the track seems to get me to run harder (probably all of the intervals in high school).

Your half in 4 weeks will give you a very good idea of your marathon fitness. If you can run 1:30-1:35 comfortably, 3:15 is probably reasonable, as long as you do the long runs. Make sure to do some tempo runs as well.

Good luck.

Richard

11

You’re not an idiot, just inexperienced. We all progress in our knowlegde of the sport and have those “duh” moments where we look back and wonder how we didn’t kill ourselves. “If only I had known then, what I know now” syndrome.

But you did something correct by asking questions.

First, since it’s your first marathon focus on just finishing and running the entire run. I know this sounds weak, but running a marathon is not easy. Finishing one is relatively simple, just uncomfortable, but you want to run the thing, not Oprah it in.

You’ll find this will keep you coming back to do more. Too lofty a goal on the first try usually kills all motivation to continue. Plus there’s nothing worse than finding out at mile 22 you were a little ambitious about your ability. Pain doesn’t fade quickly in the mind.

Second, until you’ve logged serious miles, speedwork isn’t going to help you much. Right now w/o knowing more, I’d make the assumption endurance is your main limiter. Just go run alot and you’ll get faster. The more experienced you become the more “need” for a little speed work, but still not alot. I always err on the side of less intensity.

So the long run is the most important run each week. If you are dropping running frequency and/or distance during the week or long run, then drop the yasso’s. They are doing more harm than good. If you can bounce back after the yasso’s and crack a medium day of 8-12 feeling decent, then stick with them. It’s all about recovery and consistency in training, not one special session a week.

Do you jog your recovery during the track session? I ran the 400 and 800 in college and can drop quick 800 repeats on a walk break. Make me jog and my pace slows significantly. Your training for a 26 mile run, not the 800m, build endurance every way you can.

That said, you may get more benefit from a fartlek type run right now.

13

don’t call em “marys”…runners will laugh at you. And Tibbs is correct, your goal should be to get up to 10 reps after 6-8 sessions…not start with 10.

14

I’ll take a different view…

First good for you. Now… Forget about the Yasso 800’s as a physical workout. Think of it as positive reinforcement. You DID 10-800’s at 3:15. According to Bart Yasso you have a shot a running a 3:15 mary. Put that in your back pocket of positive steps towards your goal. Nothing more, nothing less. If you enjoy the Yasso’s then do them. Don’t rely on them, but do them when you feel like it. Spend the rest of your workouts do the necessary training to get you the rest of the way to your goal.

Good luck. I’d love to hear how your races go.

FWIW I’m right there with you. Running a half on Sunday and shooting for near 1:30. Doing a mary in late April and would like 3:15. I did 10-800’s on the track in 3:15 a few months ago, but I moved and now don’t have a track to try them again. Right now I’m just trying to build on my long run and increase the weekly mileage.

15

justin…they’re marathons, not “marys”

:wink:
.

16

I agree with what you say. I think a marathon now is a strength thing, not a speed thing.

I’ve got my first one coming up and my view on this or mile repeats is to say: “wait until you do a 22 mile long run, to train for your first marathon,” and ask this question again, because its an eye opener and indictment to every known thinking of anaerobic intervals and repeats I ever did. If you are stopping at say 12-15, and that’s where your endurance is, and going back and doing repeats or Yasso’s, I say drop the Yasso’s and keep running, slow: wait until you meet the party waiting to fire up the band for you at mile 22 or so.

Long, longer and then longer to get those hips and quads and hip flexors to get strong.

When the bitch reaper gets you, even if you drink and hydrate absolutely perfectly, your ass muscles get tight, your quads get tight, feet, everything, its like running on stilts.

I thought it was going to be an aerobic capacity issue, but it turns out at least for me, its moreso a muscle strength and body, pounding issue, in the leg and butt muscles.

17

Exactly. Marathons are not fast. IM’s are not fast. We’re not fast.

Must keep repeating this to myself, I’m not fast. Now I can maintain a decent speed for a long time, that’s what it takes. Most beginners would be better off training like ultra runners (not their volume, but attitude and focus on lsd first)

18

what’s a yasso?

19

This dude called Bart Yasso worked out that for most runners if they can run say 10 x 800 meter repeats in say 3 minutes 10 seconds, with short rest, they should, provided the training has been done, be capable of a 3 hrs 10 minute marathon. They have been nicknamed Yasso’s 800s.

The calculation/indicator supposedly works for runners of all abilities.

20

“When the bitch reaper gets you, even if you drink and hydrate absolutely perfectly, your ass muscles get tight, your quads get tight, feet, everything, its like running on stilts.”

That’s the case for me, too. Problem is, I never feel too bad running 8 min/miles for 23 miles (once I build up to it). It’s always and only hits when I try for 7’s in the race. And it comes on at mile 21 and I hobble in at 10 min/miles and then I am injured for 2 months. Just like so many other guys … One of the biggest reasons I started to do ‘diversify.’ Marathon aren’t healthy:-)

21

I believe they are supposed to be that hard. I think (I’m not Bart Yasso) they were designed as a way to help people pick a pace for their interval workouts, not specifically as a way to predict marathon time. As it turns out, your marathon time in hours and minutes gives an 800m time in minutes and seconds that is probably pretty similar to the pace you would run a 5k which happens to be an outstanding level of effort to work vo2max pace. I think 5k or level of effort corresponds to the 5a, 5b level of effort you saw.

Keith

22

With Yasso’s 800’s you are supposed to start with 4 and add one more each week, topping out at 10 2 weeks before your full marathon. Your rest interval (jogging) should be equal time to the work interval. I prefer not to shoot for a specific time with these, rather go as fast as you can given the amount of rest, and keep them consistent. For example you should be shooting for a range of no more than about 4 seconds between your fastest and slowest 800. Anything more than that and you need to learn to judge your pace better. Then, take your average time for the 800’s and this will yield a predictor of what you can run a marathon in. I don’t think it works as well the other way around, the way you are doing them, hoping to run a 3:15 and going out and trying to hit them at 3:15. It is probably making you run too hard and throwing the prediction value of the workout off. Not to mention it is probably affecting your next couple of workouts in a negative way. This workout should not be super tough, more like a good hard tempo run, never really going above AT. Also to make this predictor work, you also have to do the supporting training, plenty of long runs and some long runs at race pace also.