Worth the read, RE: Injured US Troops, from WaPo

No matter who you are, no matter what your views on the war, I think we can all agree that in every way this is a gross disservice to those who serve our country. We all should write letters and emails to our local, state and federal representatives about these issues and tell them that they have to be systemically fixed without haste. My personal recommendation is that in your letter/email you ask that your representative/s make calls for addressing this issue in a way that places all the focus on the soldiers and does not even have a tinge of levying any political fault or blame. This issue should not be about winning more votes, but about protecting those that protect us.

And if possible, please keep any “It’s his fault” “No it’s his fault” arguments till the 10th post of the thread.

I don’t recall the URLs off the top of my head, but there are a few that I know of that if you are willing and able that you can donate your time or money to and would have very meaningful effects on the lives of injured or killed US soldiers and their families. If you have any that you are aware of I ask that you post them to this thread. Thanks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/13/AR2005101302166_pf.html

For Injured U.S. Troops, ‘Financial Friendly Fire’
Flaws in Pay System Lead to Dunning, Credit Trouble

By Donna St. George
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, October 14, 2005; A01

His hand had been blown off in Iraq, his body pierced by shrapnel. He could not walk. Robert Loria was flown home for a long recovery at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, where he tried to bear up against intense physical pain and reimagine his life’s possibilities.

The last thing on his mind, he said, was whether the Army had correctly adjusted his pay rate – downgrading it because he was out of the war zone – or whether his combat gear had been accounted for properly: his Kevlar helmet, his suspenders, his rucksack.

But nine months after Loria was wounded, the Army garnished his wages and then, as he prepared to leave the service, hit him with a $6,200 debt. That was just before last Christmas, and several lawmakers scrambled to help. This spring, a collection agency started calling. He owed another $646 for military housing.

“I was shocked,” recalled Loria, now 28 and medically retired from the Army. “After everything that went on, they still had the nerve to ask me for money.”

Although Loria’s problems may be striking on their own, the Army has recently identified 331 other soldiers who have been hit with military debt after being wounded at war. The new analysis comes as the United States has more wounded troops than at any time since the Vietnam War, with thousands suffering serious injury in Iraq or Afghanistan.

“This is a financial friendly fire,” charged Rep. Thomas M. Davis III (R-Va.), chairman of the House Committee on Government Reform, which has been looking into the issue. “It’s awful.” Davis called the failure systemic and said military “pay problems have been an embarrassment all the way through” the war.

Army officials said they are in the process of forgiving debts for 99 of the 331 wounded soldiers, all now out of the military. The other cases have not been resolved, said G. Eric Reid, director of the U.S. Army Finance Command. Complex laws and regulations govern the cancellation of debts once soldiers leave the service, he said.

Part of the problem is that the government’s computerized pay system is designed to “maximize debt collection” and has operated without a way to keep bills from going to the wounded, Reid said. In the past seven months, a database of injured troops has been created to help prevent that. Now, he said, the goal is to make “a conscious decision . . . on the validity of that debt” in every case.

Early this year, the Army reported that, in looking at a two-month period, it had identified 129 wounded soldiers – still active in the military – who had debts. Those were resolved. But the Army cannot pinpoint the full number of wounded active-duty troops with debts.

The House Government Reform Committee has for several years been looking at pay problems among service members. Last spring, the committee asked the Government Accountability Office to investigate debt among the war’s wounded and whether troops were being reported to collection and credit agencies. The findings are due early next year.

Although efforts are being made to correct such problems, Rep. Todd R. Platts (R-Pa.) said that for some troops, “we’ve so mismanaged their pay that . . . we’ve sent debt notices while they’re still in combat, in harm’s way.” Hounding wounded troops is unfathomable, he said. “For even a single soldier, this is unacceptable,” he said.

At the root of the problem is an outdated Defense Department computer system, which does not automatically link pay and personnel records. This creates numerous pay errors – and overpayments become debts, said Gregory D. Kutz, the GAO’s managing director for forensic audits and special investigations. “They’ve been trying to modernize it since the mid-1990s,” he said. “They have been unsuccessful.”

No one can say how many troops have pay problems across the military, Kutz said, but the GAO has found that, in certain Army National Guard and Reserve units, more than 90 percent of soldiers have had at least one overpayment or underpayment during deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan. Steps have since been taken to improve the system, but the problem will not be eliminated, Kutz said, until the larger computer system is reengineered.

Typically, troops get a boost in pay while in combat. When they come home, the system can take extra weeks to catch up with the change, and some people are overpaid. For wounded troops – still adjusting to their injuries and changed futures – a debt notice can be another bitter discovery.

“It was like I was being abandoned. I was no good to the military anymore,” recalled Loria, who served more than five years. “They figured the pay glitch was my fault and I was going to pay for it.”

Loria was a combat engineer in Iraq in February 2004 when he rushed out with other soldiers to rescue a comrade wounded by a roadside bomb near Baqubah. After helping load the soldier onto his Humvee, Loria started to drive away. A second bomb exploded.

“My whole body hurt,” he said, “and I felt like I was on fire.” He noticed that his hand and lower arm seemed to be hanging off to the side.

A week later, Loria awoke in a hospital bed at Walter Reed, his wife watching over him. He had to learn to walk again, and, worse, he had to accept that “I was never going to do something that required two hands.” Still, he said, he tried to remember that others died in Iraq and that “so many people in Walter Reed were 10 times worse off than myself.”

After he left the hospital, his financial trouble started. First, his wages were garnished. “I was missing car payments and phone bill payments and everything else,” he said. Then, when he was leaving the military, shortly before Christmas, his debts were laid out: $2,200 in travel related to follow-up hospital treatment, $2,400 for combat-related pay he should not have collected and several hundred dollars more for military gear that went missing after his injury.

The full force of his debt hit as he was trying to get to his family in New York for the holidays. “I had a quarter-tank of gas, three cats in my vehicle and no money whatsoever,” he said.

His outraged wife, Christine Loria, called the local newspaper in Middletown, N.Y., which published an article, and New York lawmakers became involved: Democratic Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Charles E. Schumer and Rep. Maurice D. Hinchey (D). Within a matter of days, the debts were cleared, and Yankees owner George Steinbrenner donated $25,000 to Loria.

Months later, home with his wife and stepson, Loria was stunned to receive a call from a collection agency. He owed $646 for housing: nine days of rent, damaged window blinds, a broken refrigerator tray.

“They call and they call and they call,” he said. “They’re nasty to me.” Sometimes, he said, he feels outraged. “I don’t know how much you want from me. I already gave you one arm and a part of a leg.”

As Loria battled with bill collectors, Ryan Kelly, 25, took his problems to the GAO. He did this at the suggestion of a friend and fellow volunteer at the Wounded Warrior Project, a nonprofit program in Roanoke for injured troops.

Kelly had been wounded in Iraq in July 2003, when his Humvee was blasted by a roadside bomb. “It blew my leg pretty much clean off,” he said.

Like Loria, Kelly spent months at Walter Reed, recovering and learning to walk again without his lower leg and foot. The Army staff sergeant struggled with questions about his future. Because he had been injured as a reservist, he was told, there was no guarantee he could deploy to Iraq again. “I didn’t want to stay in the Army if I was just going to be a warm body, filling a slot,” he said.

When Kelly left the military last year, he recalled, “it was an intense, emotional time.” He thought little of the final two checks totaling $2,700 because he was owed vacation and travel pay, he said. Later, he was bewildered as pay stubs continued to come in the mail, each blank except for a notation of a $2,230 debt.

Frustrated, Kelly called the Disabled Soldier Support System, a unit where a counselor told him the Army had mistakenly paid him for an extra 22 days. But Kelly said he was told it would all work out well because the military owed him for his leave and travel. A few weeks later, he said, "I got a check, and I thought, ‘Oh, that’s nice.’ "

But after he and his wife moved to Arizona, he received a bill for $2,230 – with the threat of a referral to a collection agency. “I was pretty speechless,” he said.

When Kelly called the GAO, he learned that the debt was already listed on his credit history.

“What benefit is the Army getting, aggressively going after disabled service members for $500 or $1,000 or whatever? Why not give injured service members a little leeway?”

That sentiment is common.

Tyson Johnson, 24, of Prichard, Ala., was stunned after being struck by a mortar round in Iraq to find a bill waiting for him when he came home from the hospital. It was for $2,700, the bonus he had been given when he enlisted.

“I definitely felt betrayed, because I went over there and almost lost my life,” said Johnson, a corporal when he was injured. His debt was resolved after his story made news. “I really didn’t need more stress.”

Sgt. Gary Dowd, 28, was caught in an ambush 30 miles north of Tikrit, Iraq, in 2003 and suffered multiple injuries, losing his left hand and forearm.

After 13 months of treatment, he retired from the Army early this year. Shortly afterward, he received a letter at his home in Tampa asking him to repay $600 for a survivor-benefit insurance plan he had opted out of when he signed his deployment papers.

There was no number on the bill to call – no way to protest. “I was pretty irked that they thought I owed them something,” he said. “I feel like I’ve given them enough.”

Although Dowd feels there is no ill intent, he said, "I do wish that once they realized they had an injured service member, they would flag them and say: ‘This guy has been in the hospital. He’s going through enough already.’ "

This could not have happened. How do I know? Art wrote…

“The US military and the United States value every citizen and every member of the military and go to heroic lengths to protect and defend them.”

And we know he’s never wrong. Hey Art, care to reconsider in light of the facts? Or do you consider this just another soldier whining unfairly about being mistreated by his government?

Thanks for the post Tri- We all need to be aware of how the government has and will continue to screw our Vets.

I find it interesting that many people concentrate on the numbers of dead but don’t look at the numbers of injured. A couple week ago when the death toll was at 1,943 I was thinking about this. The number of injured was 14,753. With a total number of dead/injured at 16,698, only 11.6% of the soldiers who were hit were killed. Looking back historically, I checked the numbers from VietNam it appears that if you got hit there you had a 27.5% of chance of dying, and in WWII this was more like 37.7%. Not that this really has anything to do with anything, but I found it interesting.

I find it interesting that many people concentrate on the numbers of dead but don’t look at the numbers of injured. A couple week ago when the death toll was at 1,943 I was thinking about this. The number of injured was 14,753. With a total number of dead/injured at 16,698, only 11.6% of the soldiers who were hit were killed. Looking back historically, I checked the numbers from VietNam it appears that if you got hit there you had a 27.5% of chance of dying, and in WWII this was more like 37.7%. Not that this really has anything to do with anything, but I found it interesting.

Not meant to debate your comments. This was discussed (not here) a while back. The number of soldiers who died in previous conflicts more often died enroute to or on the operating table. With the new technological advances in medical procedures more soldiers are surviving. I am sure there are some who would argue that yes they are alive but are not the same. I am quite sure if you asked those who survived they would agree they are glad they did. As a side note I ran the Army Ten Miler two weeks a go and several dozen amputees called Missing Parts in Action ran too. It was very moving to see them and really humbled me.

This could not have happened. How do I know? Art wrote…

“The US military and the United States value every citizen and every member of the military and go to heroic lengths to protect and defend them.”

And we know he’s never wrong. Hey Art, care to reconsider in light of the facts? Or do you consider this just another soldier whining unfairly about being mistreated by his government?

Thanks for the post Tri- We all need to be aware of how the government has and will continue to screw our Vets.

??? Dude you will turn anything into a negative won’t you. Did you even read the article or just the headline? What happened to Loria was nothing short of tragic and very unfortunate. It never should have happened. The article did say that the system was not set up to account for the circumstances that created this. Software programs were already in place and being used to process soldiers pay and benefits. It goes on to say that officials are aware and working on the problem. You couldn’t wait to jump in and start pointing fingers and blaming someone. Tridiot posted this as an opportunity for you and me and everyone else to write our congressmen to express our concern over this and make appropriate changes. My guess is you don’t even know who you local representative or senators are so won’t bother writing them. You would rather sit behind your computer fat dumb and happy writing garbage that is meant to inflame not help. Remember if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Right…more advanced medical procedures, technology, etc. Clearly a good thing. Did troops in VietNam wear body armor the way troops do today?

If troops in Iraq who were hit by enemy fire had the same mortality rate as in VietNam, we’d have more like 4,625 KIA.

Here are three of the sites I mentioned:

All are 501(c)(3) non-profit corporations, unless I’m mistaken.

I think armor, both body and vehicle types also have a lot to do with survival rates, along with improved treatment. If we had no body armor and slow evac like past wars, the death rates would be much, much higher.

The medical specialty of Trauma Surgery was largely born of the Vietnam war. Many medical lessons were learned there, and they’ve been applied accross the board. Not to mention advances in medicine/research since then, and their applications.

Also, you didn’t see to many troops humping flak vests in Vietnam. Their torsos and vital organs were more exposed to injury. Now, everyone’s got a flak vest. Kevlar helmets too - they protect against head injury better than the steel pots troops used to wear.

Back to the point of this thread: that’s disgusting.

Aren’t many of the Iraq deaths concussion related and caused by large roadside bombs. If armour cant stop them I don’t know if Kevlar can protect you against those.

You’re missing (or ignoring) the point: such things contribute to a lower mortality rate among those who are wounded. They don’t prevent deaths in 100% of the cases.

As in most comparisons there are probably a multitude of reasons for the different casualty rates between Vietnam and Iraq. Advances in battlefield surgery definitely have to play a part but you can’t ignore that the weaponry involved is quite different too as are the tactics employed by the enemy.

I may be way off base (thats me qualifying myself in case Tyrius reads this) but it appears to me that most of the troops injured and killed in Iraq were travelling in vehicles, armored or otherwise and were victims of roadside bombs, where as in Vietnam most troops did not patrol in heavy armour…something to do with trees and mud in the way.

Quite a shame that this is happening.

I don’t see any malice here, though. Just the result of a huge bureaucracy trying to handle payroll (a well recognized pain in the neck for ALL organizations) via an automated system, which doesn’t have the ability to account for all the variables.

Should special consideration be given to the wounded? I’d vote for that. I’d also vote for aggressive targeting of debt collection for cheaters of the system.

Designing a computer system on antiquated equipment (or even the latest stuff) that can reliably tell the difference would be a nightmare.

Some statistics… it was 331 known mistakes out of 16,000 wounded and 150K in country troups and how many million DOD employees?

331/15,000 = 2.21%
331/150,000 = 0.221%
331/DOD Emplyees - a fraction of the above.

There’s almost guaranteed to be that many screwups.

The important thing is that they get identified and fixed, which it seems to be is happening. Yes, it’s absolutely the LAST thing the wounded vets and their families need to deal with. But it’s not something to start a witch hunt over.

Just for information:

The specific system in question is the Defense Joint Military Pay System-Reserve Component (DJMS-RC), operated by the Defense Finance and Accounting Service (DFAS). Government admission is that DJMS-RC is falling apart at the seams, and that the human processes associated with the system (which address a lot of the flaws of the system, which are major) are all broken and extremely prone to failure.

The modernization project is the Defense Integrated Military Human Resources Systems (DIMHRS) system, which is to replace DJMS-RC. Info on that can be found here: http://www.dimhrs.mil/

To use a technical term, that project is a “cluster ferk”.

I guess you are too full of hatred and anger, not to mention shit, to have seen this in the original post:

“And if possible, please keep any “It’s his fault” “No it’s his fault” arguments till the 10th post of the thread.”

Way to take a thread and turn it ugly. I think you broke the land speed record on that one.

Devil’s advocate . . . we all know that the extra pay stops once we’re out of the war zone, why would you spend what you know isn’t yours. also, turn in your gear or pay for it. This stuff happens all the time, if you’re smart you get it fixed right away or at least set it aside in an interest bearing account. The disservice was done by his chain of command not checking on him and DFAS for letting the extra money roll in. But we’re all adults… those “stubs” also show exactly what you’re earning each month…and you don’t get combat pay out of the combat zone…shudda fixed it.

I generally agree with your assessment. Sure he was failed by his chain of command for not properly counseling him about what to be prepared for once he left the combat zone. Also, he was failed by DFAS and that screwy pay system that sucks in general. But this comment from him just killed me:

"“I was shocked,” recalled Loria, now 28 and medically retired from the Army. “After everything that went on, they still had the nerve to ask me for money.” "

Big surprise that the govt has the nerve to ask for money it’s owed? Anyone who’s spent any time in the military knows that if you are overpaid or owe the govt money, they will take it back. I’m shocked, shocked I tell you… The sad truth is that we are so busy focused on the task at hand that we tend to lose track of the guys we leave behind or have to send home sometimes and don’t follow up as much as we should. We always try to do better by our guys, but sometimes they fall through the cracks.

I gotta agree here. It would be nice for his command chain and/or the DFAS folks to “look out for” the wounded, and allow the wounded to focus on healing…

But OTOH, you just can’t get around that “personal responsibility” thing. The buck stops with him (or his family). When they noticed the extra money, they should have checked up on it. Maybe set the money aside until it was resolved that it really was theirs, or at least not been quite so upset that it was asked for.

Still, never having put on a uniform nor been shot at, I won’t presume to put myself in his shoes. Straightening out a payroll screwup in a desk job is worlds apart from coming home from combat on a stretcher and having to fix it.

This’ll probably come off as a harsh response, I don’t mean it that way, but he and his wife were probably a little more focussed on him surviving and then beginning his lengthy healing and rehab process, and not worrying about the government making a mistake and having to double-check them on that.

I agree that there is responsibility, but first and foremost in this situation I feel it is with the US government. If they overpay, you don’t send a bill collector on a recenly wounded soldier. And the fact that it happens with frequency, and that they haven’t fixed the HUMAN process of this all (like calling the people up, explaining the situation, apologizing, wishing them well on their recovery, and tell them they will put them on a repayment program) is what is so wrong.

While not the greatest show of all time, this exact sequence played out on “Over There” and it took the wife going down to the payment office, following up several times (I believe) and basically yelling at a number of people to fix the problem. Something to the effect of “My husbands leg got blown off, so at the time he wasn’t too concerned with where his helmet or gun were.”

I just expect and know that we can do better for people risking their lives. The history of DFAS and their system (and new system) are lengthy and extremely disappointing. The term “malfeasance” comes to mind.

I may be way off base

I think that’s becoming the norm rather than the exception.