Whiteface+Epicman Lake Placid June 10/11 info/Q&A thread

Triathlon Forum
1

Whiteface + Epicman June 10/11 Lake Placid
Some of you guys have been asking for details on our annual Epicman training day outing to Lake Placid to “scout out the IMLP race course”. There are enough vets kicking around that you can ask questions, but I promised to post something in the last few weeks of lead up, so here we go. If you post more questions on this thread, myself or others who have gone can get you answers on how things work.
This is your chance to pay homage to ST celebrities like Chris G, Murphy’s Law and Tetsuoni who can make you hurt on the bike or in the bar!
In today’s triathlon era of 365 day advanced sellouts, 6 day hotel minimums, catered training camps, training by numbers, on line live event coverage and designer nutrition programs, there are some things that actually have not changed.
Stripping things to the bare essence, triathlon is about you, the water, the bike and some running shoes.
When Collins and the boys did the first Ironman in the late 70’s that’s what it was. A bunch of guys getting together and pushing themselves over what seems like an insurmountable distance.
We’re now on year 12 of Epicman in Lake Placid
Epicman is a grass roots training day with a bunch of guys and girls getting together to train on the course fully self supported.
No registration, no timing, no awards, no aid stations, no on course neutral support vehicle. Imagine yourself out there training all day on the Ironman Lake Placid course. Now add a bunch of like minded people that just happen to show up to join in on the fun.
Course
We cover ~3K of swimming in 50 minutes (or beach to beach to beach, whatever gets you out close to 50 minutes ), 180K of riding and 21K of running. Since this year the out and back is closed due to construction, on each loop we’ll climb up to the whiteface toll gate. This will make the ride tougher than the actual race day at Ironman Lake Placid. Run starts after you are done the ride on the IMLP course. You can do as much or as little as you want. If you finish the full 50 min swim, full 2loop bike with 2 climbs to the toll gate and full 21.1K run, my friend Chris Macknie has a surprise gift for you.
Who do I ride with?
Contrary to previous years, we won’t have any large groups aiming at 5:30, 6:00, 6:30. Just grab a group of 3-5 friends or jump in with some other folks and ride together. Quite frankly the intimacy of a small group of people works out better than being in a train with 30-50 people, and we consume less road space which is a good thing given that local drivers don’t like to take a detour around skinny guys in lycra with shaved legs….everyone wins with smaller groups on the road.
Other Details
Here are the rest of the details for the training day:
This is a self supported grass roots training day that I concocted in 1999 and we want to keep the same spirit. There are lots of organized camps that you can pay big $$$ for much higher service. I’m just inviting you to train on the same day as a bunch of us.

Things we will do and you should know of: It is self supported…bring your own nutrition Your car is your Tzone…park it by the beach Swim starts at 6 am , June 11, 2010 at Mirror Lake Bike starts at 7 am sharp Please ride on the right side of the road Bring a pump and patch kit. There is no support and no one to bail you out. Imagine that you are going to ride solo. You can stop wherever you want with your friends for breaks. Consult the guys and gals in your group on where they want to stop Do not attack the bike course, pace yourself out and have consideration for the guys you are riding with. Try to ride with people of similar ability. If you are a 10 hour guy, don’t ride with 13 hour guys and hammer them into the ground Put some “aid” on the run course by the horse crossing sign on River Road fofr the run…assume that whatever you put out there might be consumed by others Bring your breakfast, there is nothing open at 5 am in LP on Friday There is no cost and no timing. This is just a group of dudes arriving at the same place at the same time to train. Bring digital cameras and take lots of pictures…you could be the star of the post event write up If you have not done an Ironman before and if you think that you cannot finish Epicman in 9 hours or so, it is highly recommended that you cut the run short. It is better to do that than to do an 11+ hour training day and be shelled for all of June which is your key month for Ironman LP. You pretty well need to be “trained” to race LP next weekend to do this day and recover quickly. Bring extra goodies in your car to share with other athletes: gels, coke, chips, pretzels, banana, gatorade, water, infinit, chocolate bars, old pizza…whatever you think might help yourself and other get through. Pack all your nutrition for the day and have bags for gear for each sport just like you would do for an Ironman…easier to find in your car which WILL become a mess if you share the cars with another athlete. You can do as much or as little of the day as you wish. No one to report to but yourself. Drafting, fins, neoprene socks and gloves, all of which might get you DQ’d on race day are permitted. In fact, get it out of your system NOW!!! If you have a loved one to give you outside assistance, no worries. If you want to draft a transport truck riding up through High Falls Gorge, no one will stop you J
Since this is a training day where you do everything yourself, there has, nor will there ever be a cost or registration.
Whiteface Mountain Hillclimb on Thursday Evening
If you can get to Lake Placid early come join us for a climb of Whiteface mountain on Thursday at 4 pm from the tennis courts at Mirror Lake beach. This climb is identical to Alpe D’Huez in difficulty and duration and elevartion….just less switchbacks and more steady climbing. Times range from 50 minutes to 75 min or so. Perhaps one of the best rides in the North East that many triathletes never do. This is your chance. Many of us do the Whiteface climb and the Epicman swim+bike, and do a shorter run….you’re choice. But if you go to Lake Placid enough, not doing Whiteface is a missed opportunity. Recommended gearing is 34x27 or a triple, although you can survive grinding it out in a 39x25. You can read about last year’s climb here:
http://www.xtri.com/features_display.aspx?riIDReport=5703&CAT=27&xref=xx
Accommodations Deal
If you call the Northwoods Inn (518) 523-1818 and say you are going to Lake Placid to do Ironman training with the Epicman guys they will give you a rate of $65 per nite for June 10th and June 11th.
Sincerely
Dev

2

Dev,

Is the bike still 112 miles or is it shorter and tougher? I have never been on the Whiteface Climb, so I don’t know where the toll gate is, but assume it is a ways up based upon your post.

Sam

3

Toll gate is approx 3m of climbing at 8% grade. So, it is technically shorter going up and down, than out and back on Hazelton Rd.

At the risk of wussifying Dev’s beloved event, I would honestly prefer doing some other out-and-back variation, than going up to the toll gate 2 (more) times.
Continuing on 9N past Jay and up to Ausable Forks and back, or making the R at the L turn on 86 in Wilmington and going out and back on 19A/Bonnieview Ave, both seem preferable - and closer in difficulty, distance, and topography - to Hazelton.

I’ll go sip on my white wine spritzer now…

4

I will joining your event and am looking very forward to it. Two questions:

  1. Why use the whiteface toll gate as the out and back instead of the detour stated on the website? It seems the detour connects you to the orginal out and back after the bridge. And if there are some LP newbies, at least they will get to experience some of it. Personally, I like the harder whiteface tollgate option.
  2. I will arrive on Thursday but most likely not in time for the whiteface climb. Is there a place afterwards that everyone is meeting for some food/beers? And if so, can you set a time?

Thanks!

5

Hey guys,

I am already getting some push back on the dual tollgate climbs and suprisingly enough from ML of all people, who is the originator of the “ML stupidity challenge version of Epicman”!!!

Last year I got flack for wussifying and offering a duathlon option (that option is dead this year on account of good water temps). Now I try to add some character to the training day and I literally have to pull out the “waaaaambulance” to service the whining :slight_smile:

Time wise it is not any different than the out and back, probably marginally shorter. TSS wise, its gonna be harder. I understand that for newbies, they will get a slightly harder experience on the bike than the “real event”, however, this should make them mentally stronger for the “real event”.

…then again, for some of us, this is the real event, and life is not all about preparing for “A racing events” but sometime about “A training days”.

I’m in a tough spot having to cater to studs, vets, newbies and MOP guys.

Part of what gives Epicman character is that it is tough, but there is a ton of comraderie involved and when it’s all said and done, Chris Macknie (Rolldown) is making an “finisher medal” that states that you did 10,000 feet of climbing…do you really want to miss out on the “hardware”?

On the one hand it is great for Newbies to have the “Pre IMLP experience”.

I started Epicman 12 years ago when there where no camps there to give myself “the pre IMLP experience”.

Now there are a ton of camps that you can pay big $$$$$$ for and show up and get the entire pre IMLP experience catered.

While Epicman has stayed more or less consistent over the years, one of the things that the training day prides itself on is being detached from mass commercialization and having its own character, generated by a combination of the course, lack of support, the guys who show up and the war stories and smack talk before and afterwards.

Going to the tollgate twice is about sustaining Epicman’s differentiation from other "mainsteam “paid for camps”. ML added the Whiteface “Prologue” hillclimb a few years ago and “it stuck” because it gave the event character.

Finally, I am trying to morph some of the best features of our Irontour Camp with Epicman weekend.

If people want the pre IMLP experience, go sign up for a paid camp. If you want the “FULL EPICMAN experience”, join us in training, and while your legs may hate the second toll gate climb and you’ll curse at me (as I will to myself), when all is said and done, you’ll have a big smile on your face…and it’s not like it has not been done before…we’ve done it before at the Irontour training camp.

6

Well said.

7

I will joining your event and am looking very forward to it. Two questions:

  1. Why use the whiteface toll gate as the out and back instead of the detour stated on the website? It seems the detour connects you to the orginal out and back after the bridge. And if there are some LP newbies, at least they will get to experience some of it. Personally, I like the harder whiteface tollgate option.
  2. I will arrive on Thursday but most likely not in time for the whiteface climb. Is there a place afterwards that everyone is meeting for some food/beers? And if so, can you set a time?

Thanks!

LP Pub and Brewery across the street from the swim start. We will be there about 5 minutes after we are done with Whiteface.

8

Well said.

Says the guy who has never done Epicman before.

We’ll see if you are singing the same tune Friday afternoon… Cartman. :wink:

9

It seems some guys called and did not get the $65 rate at Northwoods. May have been a lack of communication between the manager and front desk. I’ll call today to sort it out.

10

Hey guys,

I am already getting some push back on the dual tollgate climbs and suprisingly enough from ML of all people, who is the originator of the “ML stupidity challenge version of Epicman”!!!

Last year I got flack for wussifying and offering a duathlon option (that option is dead this year on account of good water temps). Now I try to add some character to the training day and I literally have to pull out the “waaaaambulance” to service the whining :slight_smile:

Time wise it is not any different than the out and back, probably marginally shorter. TSS wise, its gonna be harder. I understand that for newbies, they will get a slightly harder experience on the bike than the “real event”, however, this should make them mentally stronger for the “real event”.

…then again, for some of us, this is the real event, and life is not all about preparing for “A racing events” but sometime about “A training days”.

I’m in a tough spot having to cater to studs, vets, newbies and MOP guys.

Part of what gives Epicman character is that it is tough, but there is a ton of comraderie involved and when it’s all said and done, Chris Macknie (Rolldown) is making an “finisher medal” that states that you did 10,000 feet of climbing…do you really want to miss out on the “hardware”?

On the one hand it is great for Newbies to have the “Pre IMLP experience”.

I started Epicman 12 years ago when there where no camps there to give myself “the pre IMLP experience”.

Now there are a ton of camps that you can pay big $$$$$$ for and show up and get the entire pre IMLP experience catered.

While Epicman has stayed more or less consistent over the years, one of the things that the training day prides itself on is being detached from mass commercialization and having its own character, generated by a combination of the course, lack of support, the guys who show up and the war stories and smack talk before and afterwards.

Going to the tollgate twice is about sustaining Epicman’s differentiation from other "mainsteam “paid for camps”. ML added the Whiteface “Prologue” hillclimb a few years ago and “it stuck” because it gave the event character.

Finally, I am trying to morph some of the best features of our Irontour Camp with Epicman weekend.

If people want the pre IMLP experience, go sign up for a paid camp. If you want the “FULL EPICMAN experience”, join us in training, and while your legs may hate the second toll gate climb and you’ll curse at me (as I will to myself), when all is said and done, you’ll have a big smile on your face…and it’s not like it has not been done before…we’ve done it before at the Irontour training camp.

Well, the Whiteface Prologue didn’t technically “stick”, since I was freaking shelled on the run in '07, having done it the evening before.
I admitted to everyone about my hubris and lack of respect for the E.dot event, and I would never do something so stoooopid again… until 2 years later. :wink:

I do know that, both times I have done the Prologue, I have been literally crawling back thru Wilmington and High Falls Gorge on the 2nd lap of the bike for E.dot proper. I honestly cannot imagine how much higher the level of suck is going to be w/ a toll gate climb thrown in prior. Other than the annoying hill towards the end of the and-back on Hazelton Rd, it’s mostly a sit and cruise ride thru there, you can recover a bit. Replacing that w/ 20-30 mins of granny gear grinding - ouch.

And then running 13m after that?

Do you do that at IronTour?? That might explain why you get 4-6 doodes for IronTour, vs. 40-60+ peeps for E.dot. Just sayin’.

11

Has anyone done the full E.dot AND the W’face prologue, back-to-back? Seems to me that the only people whose plans may be crippled by the multiple toll gate climbs are the ones that want to go for the full shot (prologe + E.dot) and bring home the medal. I gather that most folks doing W’face will short the E.dot run regardless of the bike course.

While I will undoubtedly regret the 2 (possibly 3) toll gate climbs, I’m inclined to side with this layout as I find the out and back (and most alternatives) to be the vanilla part of the course.

12

Hey ML, no we did not do the full 13 mile run at Irontour, just the 30 minutes…the next day we followed up with a long run.

Guys, hear me out for a second.

What we have effectively are 5 different training options:
Option 1-Hard training: Whiteface Hillclimb only (1 day of pain, least recovery, watch the other guys suffer on Friday at Epicman) Option 2: No Whiteface, Epicman swim+bike+reduced run 20-30 min (1 day of pain, easy recovery) Option 3-Harder training: Whiteface+Epicman swim+bike with toll gates with reduced 20-30 min run (2 days of pain, more recovery) Option 4- Harder training: Epicman without Whiteface the day before but with toll gate climbs and full run (1 day of pain, much more recovery) Option 5-Hardest training: “All you can eat version” = Whiteface+Epicman with tollgates+full run (2 days of pain, maximum recovery)
There is something in here for everyone. You can do “part or all”. Your selected level of pain/stupidity is your own choice. No one is forcing anyone to do it all. Hopefully this clarifies!

Chris will have some medals for anyone who does the dual toll gate climbs be it in option 4 or 5 (basically full epicman bike course) and full run. No medals unless you do the full run. I personally will be going for option 3 with IM France too close for a long run.

If someone chooses to not do the toll gate climbs, but does 40K of additional “flat riding” be it with a right turn at the bottom of Keene and adding 20K per loop (10K out 10K back) or if they meander over to the out and back from the corner at Wilmington at the base of the toll gate climb, we’ll have a supply of last year’s medals. But the toll gate climbs are the “official course” for this year…choose what you want to do.

For anyone sticking around on Saturday morning, there will be a group who did option 2 and 3 above (reduced runs) who will do their longer run on Saturday. Its not part of the “official epicman agenda” but a good option if you are not an ubertrained stud that can bounce back from options 2 and 3 without digging youself a massive training hole that takes a month to recover from! Options 2 and 3 are not bad choices if you have some “near term racing” and want to perform without being completely cooked.

Dev

13

OK, guys, I called Northwoods and they are able to do $65. Just say you are there for Epicman. Thursday evening is no problem, but get your reservation in for Friday as they are selling out.

Dev

14

I think that I am going for the chase the skinny guys up the hill and then take Friday as it comes plan. A big part of the “problem” last year was that ML had to make a pit stop leaving town the first time and thought we were behind everyone. Natch we determined the best plan was to hammer until we caught up and then sit in and hang on. Too bad we were actually out front and the first group we caught after the downhill was those team psycho folks and Mrs Fleck. Not a good way to start the day.

This year I am sure that we will be much smarter, but then there is always Murphy’s Law to consider, not the man the myth the legend but rather the concept :slight_smile:

15

This is why I have suggested “groups of 3-5”…no “timed groups to chase”, just hang with your buddies and thus any remaining post Whiteface testosterone may be used hammering the guys in your group vs chasing another random group. Plus there are “no planned pitstops”…each group stops where they want. In effect, by not imposing pit stops there will be high entertainment value in watching those who disregard nutrition and blow early!

16

This is why I have suggested “groups of 3-5”…no “timed groups to chase”, just hang with your buddies and thus any remaining post Whiteface testosterone may be used hammering the guys in your group vs chasing another random group. Plus there are “no planned pitstops”…each group stops where they want. In effect, by not imposing pit stops there will be high entertainment value in watching those who disregard nutrition and blow early!

Not sure I have ever been in an edot group bigger than 5 or 6, not for very long anyway. No one will have to beg me to stop and eat.

So is it your plan to get in a small enough group that you do not have to YELL at people all day this year? Edot just wouldn’t be the same if you were not threatening someone with the frame pump :wink:

My plans to go up to the camp where I could ride up a respectable hill this weekend got crushed so I am gonna have to rely on my AZ experiences to get me up the big hill next week. Such is life…

17

If you hang around for the weekend there is the Wilmington-Whiteface Road Race Saturday and the Saranac Crit on Sunday.

18

Hey ML, no we did not do the full 13 mile run at Irontour, just the 30 minutes…the next day we followed up with a long run.

Guys, hear me out for a second.

What we have effectively are 5 different training options:
Option 1-Hard training: Whiteface Hillclimb only (1 day of pain, least recovery, watch the other guys suffer on Friday at Epicman) Option 2: No Whiteface, Epicman swim+bike+reduced run 20-30 min (1 day of pain, easy recovery) Option 3-Harder training: Whiteface+Epicman swim+bike with toll gates with reduced 20-30 min run (2 days of pain, more recovery) Option 4- Harder training: Epicman without Whiteface the day before but with toll gate climbs and full run (1 day of pain, much more recovery) Option 5-Hardest training: “All you can eat version” = Whiteface+Epicman with tollgates+full run (2 days of pain, maximum recovery)
There is something in here for everyone. You can do “part or all”. Your selected level of pain/stupidity is your own choice. No one is forcing anyone to do it all. Hopefully this clarifies!

Chris will have some medals for anyone who does the dual toll gate climbs be it in option 4 or 5 (basically full epicman bike course) and full run. No medals unless you do the full run. I personally will be going for option 3 with IM France too close for a long run.

If someone chooses to not do the toll gate climbs, but does 40K of additional “flat riding” be it with a right turn at the bottom of Keene and adding 20K per loop (10K out 10K back) or if they meander over to the out and back from the corner at Wilmington at the base of the toll gate climb, we’ll have a supply of last year’s medals. But the toll gate climbs are the “official course” for this year…choose what you want to do.

For anyone sticking around on Saturday morning, there will be a group who did option 2 and 3 above (reduced runs) who will do their longer run on Saturday. Its not part of the “official epicman agenda” but a good option if you are not an ubertrained stud that can bounce back from options 2 and 3 without digging youself a massive training hole that takes a month to recover from! Options 2 and 3 are not bad choices if you have some “near term racing” and want to perform without being completely cooked.

Dev

I’m down with that.

My name is ML, and I approve this message.

Looking at Option 3, with an outside chance of Option 5, if I’m feeling saucy.

And there’s also Option 6, which is Whiteface, 2 loops of the bike w/ some other out-and-back (other than the toll booth climbs), and the full run.
Formerly known as the ML Stupidity Challenge - aka, the traditional full E.dot festivities, with the Prololgue tacked on beforehand.
That’s kinda what I was planning on, before the whole Hazelton Rd closure nonsense reared its ugly head.

19

I’ll miss the Epicman by a day, but I’ll be up in Lake Placid for my own Epicman on Saturday (June 12). I was hoping to climb WhiteFace on Sunday. I know I’ll need to work around the LP marathon which is also that weekend (June 13).

Will any of the tri course roads be closed on Saturday for the Wilmington-Whiteface road race?

Friday (June 11) - arrive mid day. Ride run course and possible get in a swim.
Saturday (June 12) - 2 loops of tri course (est 6 hours). Short break, then 1 loop of run course (easy pace - 9:00 - 10:00 min/mile)
Sunday (June 13) - climb Whiteface in morning or swim. Leave for home (Maryland) by noon.

PM me if you are interested in joining me for any of the above.

Mark

20

Sunday (June 13) - climb Whiteface in morning or swim. Leave for home (Maryland) by noon.

Sorry, but I got a chuckle out of this line. I stay away from “or” in my training plans. Kind of like saying, I’m going to go outside and power lift my car 100 times OR sit on the couch eating potato chips. Nevertheless, I’d absolutely love to hang around through saturday and sunday to partake in more fun, but I have a sneaking suspicion that my legs will be puking sometime friday evening. Have fun, ride safe.