Where are all the 2A absolutists?

Most of these groups want to completely gut the NFA, GCA and any other gun control law so that law abiding citizens can keep and bear any arm that they feel that they need to fight against tyrannical governments. If the 2nd Amendment is implicated by a rule or law, it is the government’s burden to show that it falls within the nation’s history and tradition of firearms regulation that existed around 1791.Do you think it makes sense, and if so why, to strictly apply (let’s call them) mores/laws/etc from 1791 now? I’ve always struggled with this idea. Culture changes. Ideas change. Laws change. Social expectations and responsibilities change. But words, once written, don’t.

Welcome to nutter “originalist” thinking.

Most of these groups want to completely gut the NFA, GCA and any other gun control law so that law abiding citizens can keep and bear any arm that they feel that they need to fight against tyrannical governments.

Unfortunately, that train has left the station long, long ago:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WOSqCjMRXWA&pp=ygUJbnJhIGdhbWVz
https://youtu.be/WOSqCjMRXWA?feature=shared
.

Same. It’s a safety device. It doesn’t increase the lethality of a weapon.

Never used one. But doesn’t it also reduce the noise level, such that it might make it easier for someone to commit a gun crime with a somewhat lower chance of detection? No, it won’t be remotely silent, but slightly less people would hear the gun shot, yes? Or zero people if they are far away from the crime location.

Suppressors also lessen the noise emitted by a firearm when it is used for self-defense in your house. They can allow you to hear your family speaking after shots are fired, so that you can help them if required.

Some countries require that hunters use suppressors.

Same. It’s a safety device. It doesn’t increase the lethality of a weapon.

Never used one. But doesn’t it also reduce the noise level, such that it might make it easier for someone to commit a gun crime with a somewhat lower chance of detection? No, it won’t be remotely silent, but slightly less people would hear the gun shot, yes? Or zero people if they are far away from the crime location.

Suppressors also lessen the noise emitted by a firearm when it is used for self-defense in your house. They can allow you to hear your family speaking after shots are fired, so that you can help them if required.

Some countries require that hunters use suppressors.

What is the reason they are restricted in the usa?

Most of these groups want to completely gut the NFA, GCA and any other gun control law so that law abiding citizens can keep and bear any arm that they feel that they need to fight against tyrannical governments. If the 2nd Amendment is implicated by a rule or law, it is the government’s burden to show that it falls within the nation’s history and tradition of firearms regulation that existed around 1791.

Do you think it makes sense, and if so why, to strictly apply (let’s call them) mores/laws/etc from 1791 now? I’ve always struggled with this idea. Culture changes. Ideas change. Laws change. Social expectations and responsibilities change. But words, once written, don’t.

Originalists think of the Constitution and Bill of Rights as a contract that was created between the people and the government.

If you were to enter into a contract today, would you want it interpreted 100 years from now differently than you intended at the time it was signed?

The 2nd Amendment is telling the government that the people can use any arm that they deem fit to protect themselves against crime or tyrannical governments. The existing government can be killed, removed, and replaced if they don’t do what the people want.

Same. It’s a safety device. It doesn’t increase the lethality of a weapon.

Never used one. But doesn’t it also reduce the noise level, such that it might make it easier for someone to commit a gun crime with a somewhat lower chance of detection? No, it won’t be remotely silent, but slightly less people would hear the gun shot, yes? Or zero people if they are far away from the crime location.

Suppressors also lessen the noise emitted by a firearm when it is used for self-defense in your house. They can allow you to hear your family speaking after shots are fired, so that you can help them if required.

Some countries require that hunters use suppressors.

What is the reason they are restricted in the usa?

The NFA restricts suppressors because of concern that they would be used by criminals to conceal the sound of gunfire (as you previously suggested).

However, you can pay for a suppressor, go through the paperwork, get approved, buy a $200 tax stamp, and the suppressor magically becomes safe and legal.

Don’t get me wrong, l do not support our idiotic and inconsistent mish mash of state and federal gun laws. But l am also not a fan of completely unrestricted access to essentially limitless firepower in just crazy quantities, which all allows for our extraordinarily high rate of senseless gun deaths.

But, unfortunately, it will be a cold day in hell when lobbyists and repubs allow for a sane discussion about what laws actually make sense.

Originalists think of the Constitution and Bill of Rights as a contract that was created between the people and the government.

If you were to enter into a contract today, would you want it interpreted 100 years from now differently than you intended at the time it was signed?

The 2nd Amendment is telling the government that the people can use any arm that they deem fit to protect themselves against crime or tyrannical governments. The existing government can be killed, removed, and replaced if they don’t do what the people want.

I love contract law. Most litigation involving contracts arises because of changed conditions, unanticipated expenses or delays, failures to perform all the requirements under the contract, etc. Any one of these things can be used to argue that the original contract should not be in effect.

Consider when a supplier breaches an agreement to send you certain bikes. Are you still required to pay for the bikes? What if the government breaches its duty to promote life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in that gun violence is the leading cause of death for children and teens? What if new deadly technology is an unanticipated changed condition? Are we required to fulfill the contract term that you believe says there can be no restrictions on guns?

There is no contract or contract term that is like the unerring word of God. You might not like the proposed change to the contract, but you are not the only person who has entered into this contract with the government. When a majority of the people demand a change to the contract, the contract will be modified.

Originalists think of the Constitution and Bill of Rights as a contract that was created between the people and the government.

If you were to enter into a contract today, would you want it interpreted 100 years from now differently than you intended at the time it was signed?

The 2nd Amendment is telling the government that the people can use any arm that they deem fit to protect themselves against crime or tyrannical governments. The existing government can be killed, removed, and replaced if they don’t do what the people want.

I love contract law. Most litigation involving contracts arises because of changed conditions, unanticipated expenses or delays, failures to perform all the requirements under the contract, etc. Any one of these things can be used to argue that the original contract should not be in effect.

Consider when a supplier breaches an agreement to send you certain bikes. Are you still required to pay for the bikes? What if the government breaches its duty to promote life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in that gun violence is the leading cause of death for children and teens? What if new deadly technology is an unanticipated changed condition? Are we required to fulfill the contract term that you believe says there can be no restrictions on guns?

There is no contract or contract term that is like the unerring word of God. You might not like the proposed change to the contract, but you are not the only person who has entered into this contract with the government. When a majority of the people demand a change to the contract, the contract will be modified.

Whichever group has the most “firepower” gets to create the new contract.

Originalists think of the Constitution and Bill of Rights as a contract that was created between the people and the government.

If you were to enter into a contract today, would you want it interpreted 100 years from now differently than you intended at the time it was signed?

The 2nd Amendment is telling the government that the people can use any arm that they deem fit to protect themselves against crime or tyrannical governments. The existing government can be killed, removed, and replaced if they don’t do what the people want.

I love contract law. Most litigation involving contracts arises because of changed conditions, unanticipated expenses or delays, failures to perform all the requirements under the contract, etc. Any one of these things can be used to argue that the original contract should not be in effect.

Consider when a supplier breaches an agreement to send you certain bikes. Are you still required to pay for the bikes? What if the government breaches its duty to promote life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in that gun violence is the leading cause of death for children and teens? What if new deadly technology is an unanticipated changed condition? Are we required to fulfill the contract term that you believe says there can be no restrictions on guns?

There is no contract or contract term that is like the unerring word of God. You might not like the proposed change to the contract, but you are not the only person who has entered into this contract with the government. When a majority of the people demand a change to the contract, the contract will be modified.

Whichever group has the most “firepower” gets to create the new contract.

Do you believe in the rule of law or the rule by firepower?

The rule of law is the basis for your contract arguments. If you reject the rule law, you reject the notion of an enforceable contract. You’re rejecting the Constitution itself.

It reduces the noise level by 20-30 dBs on average. Which is a lot. It basically takes something that is very (or very, very loud) loud to merely loud. I don’t think it would make an appeciable difference in the level of criminal detection. In an urban environment, most gunshots, particularly smaller calibers, don’t carry very far.

For example, a few weeks ago my squad and I responded to a hostage/DV situation. Dense urban neighborhood filled with older single family homes. Informant shows up at the house and sees a female and a male inside. Female screams for help. Informant retreats to the end of the cul de sac, maybe 100 yards away.

An officer and I get there within a few minutes. Female is dead inside from 2 gunshot wounds. Male is dead from one gunshot wound.

No one heard a shot. Neighbors two houses down were outside. The informant, who knew something was up, heard nothing.

The gun was a 9mm pistol. No silencer.

Your on the job experience is most definitely sobering.

I follow what you are saying about silencers. But l am puzzled, if they have so little effect (other than perhaps preserving the ears of a gun user), then why in the world are they so restricted and regulated in usa ?

I don’t know why they are so closely regulated. It makes no sense to me. They are very basic devices, essentially a tube with some chambers and baffling. A basic machine shop could make a silencer pretty easily.

Don’t get me wrong, l do not support our idiotic and inconsistent mish mash of state and federal gun laws. But l am also not a fan of completely unrestricted access to essentially limitless firepower in just crazy quantities, which all allows for our extraordinarily high rate of senseless gun deaths.

But, unfortunately, it will be a cold day in hell when lobbyists and repubs allow for a sane discussion about what laws actually make sense.

Almost every senseless gun death occurred after the NFA act took away and made automatic weapons difficult to obtain. That law was also passed on a voice vote, which everyone should watch. No votes were actually counted.

The cause of the “high rate of senseless gun deaths” has absolutely nothing to do with automatic weapons no matter how you want to explain it. There are plenty of reasons for it.

It’ll be a cold day in hell before anyone in this country can have a reasonable sane discussion about anything.

Almost every senseless gun death occurred after the NFA act took away and made automatic weapons difficult to obtain.

I’m not an expert on the NFA. But l am very interested to learn more. So are you saying that the NFA’s passage accelerated or increased the rate of US per capita gun deaths? Is the relationship causal or correlation? Can you share your evidence?

Almost every senseless gun death occurred after the NFA act took away and made automatic weapons difficult to obtain.

I’m not an expert on the NFA. But l am very interested to learn more. So are you saying that the NFA’s passage accelerated or increased the rate of US per capita gun deaths? Is the relationship causal or correlation? Can you share your evidence?

I’m saying it had nothing to do with what we witness today. If you want to find the causes look elsewhere. Firearms aren’t the problem. A soldier just lit himself on fire outside an embassy recently. He could’ve shot himself, but didn’t. The method of murder or suicide matters not. Preventing the behavior that leads to them is the key.

There is a growing and serious drug addiction problem along with an increasing mental health crisis in this country. All of that is condoned and supported in the name of diversity though.

The real killer you are looking for is stupidity. We are living in an existential crisis of morons being led by morons getting mentally ill people to commit mass murder. Heck you probably celebrate and demand mass murder yourself.

P.S. you don’t want learn anything about firearms or the NFA. You’re just going to regurgitate whatever the TV tells you to like all the other cool people.

I’m saying it had nothing to do with what we witness today. If you want to find the causes look elsewhere. Firearms aren’t the problem. A soldier just lit himself on fire outside an embassy recently. He could’ve shot himself, but didn’t. The method of murder or suicide matters not. Preventing the behavior that leads to them is the key.

There is a growing and serious drug addiction problem along with an increasing mental health crisis in this country. All of that is condoned and supported in the name of diversity though.

The real killer you are looking for is stupidity. We are living in an existential crisis of morons being led by morons getting mentally ill people to commit mass murder. Heck you probably celebrate and demand mass murder yourself.

P.S. you don’t want learn anything about firearms or the NFA. You’re just going to regurgitate whatever the TV tells you to like all the other cool people.

Let’s check that we are understanding you correctly:

The clear correlation between the US’ high murder rates and high gun ownership rates is irrelevant - you say there is no causal link between access to deadly weaponry and resultant deaths?
Rather, the issue is “stupidity”.
The murder rate in the USA (all cause, not only guns) at between 5 and 10 times that of other developed nations can be fully explained by their excess stupidity and mental derangement? Stop talking about guns, just look at how fucked in the head they are?

Like DSW, I look forward to reviewing your evidence. Once your premise has been persuasively established, all conversations in the LR will better proceed on the understanding that the Americans in general are up to 1000% more stupid than the rest of us.

I guess junk food bears no responsibility for America’s obesity epidemic either.

Almost every senseless gun death occurred after the NFA act took away and made automatic weapons difficult to obtain.
I’m not an expert on the NFA. But l am very interested to learn more. So are you saying that the NFA’s passage accelerated or increased the rate of US per capita gun deaths? Is the relationship causal or correlation? Can you share your evidence?
I’m saying it had nothing to do with what we witness today. If you want to find the causes look elsewhere. Firearms aren’t the problem.

Again, this is interesting. But do you have any evidence for this?

Also, if it helps, I don’t watch tv. Occasionally we stream docs or fiction, but we watch zero tv or news shows.

P.S. l’m very sorry this topic is so emotional for you.

Originalists think of the Constitution and Bill of Rights as a contract that was created between the people and the government.

If you were to enter into a contract today, would you want it interpreted 100 years from now differently than you intended at the time it was signed?

The 2nd Amendment is telling the government that the people can use any arm that they deem fit to protect themselves against crime or tyrannical governments. The existing government can be killed, removed, and replaced if they don’t do what the people want.

I love contract law. Most litigation involving contracts arises because of changed conditions, unanticipated expenses or delays, failures to perform all the requirements under the contract, etc. Any one of these things can be used to argue that the original contract should not be in effect.

Consider when a supplier breaches an agreement to send you certain bikes. Are you still required to pay for the bikes? What if the government breaches its duty to promote life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in that gun violence is the leading cause of death for children and teens? What if new deadly technology is an unanticipated changed condition? Are we required to fulfill the contract term that you believe says there can be no restrictions on guns?

There is no contract or contract term that is like the unerring word of God. You might not like the proposed change to the contract, but you are not the only person who has entered into this contract with the government. When a majority of the people demand a change to the contract, the contract will be modified.

Whichever group has the most “firepower” gets to create the new contract.

Do you believe in the rule of law or the rule by firepower?

The rule of law is the basis for your contract arguments. If you reject the rule law, you reject the notion of an enforceable contract. You’re rejecting the Constitution itself.

This world has always been controlled by those with the most “firepower”.

The biggest, baddest caveman would knock some of the other dudes out and take whatever he wanted. If someone challenged him, they would have to knock him out or kill him to be in charge and make the rules.

Remember the Declaration of Independence:

"The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security".