I kind of disagree with Frank. I stopped using PC’s from mid Jun to mid Sep and was able to get back on them and ride OK. Not fast and long, but OK (40K ride the first day in the 90-100 RPM range, sitting up). I think the strength and endurance developed in the hamstrings and hip flexors holds over for quite some time though.
smartass’s and perfections usual inane comments aside, i agree with both my man mr day, and devashish.
i have gone to riding the PC’s more as arefresher, and plan to ride them all winter again on the rollers in basement. i think they are easily worth the asking price for winter-bound use on rollers, btw. it appears to me that this is how many, if not most of the guys who have them end up usig them, and i beleive it is fine and dandy. the added benefit of being PC-traned is still readily eveident on all my fixed gear, singlespeed, and road rides/races that i enjoy apart from the PC’s. adaptation is quickly re-ramped up, it seems, and benefit is slow to depart, in my view and experience.
i have no desire to race on them, and see little reason to do so. the nature of the cranks does impart limits to things in handling, and comfort, and even just coasting in a tuck. if you can pedal PC style as you choose on regular cranks, why impose those limits on your ride? moreover, there ARE times when a fellow just doesn’t WANT to pedal PC style for anyone of numerous reasons . . . say you need to bunnyhop a hedgehog and then sprint over torn up gravel to chase back on. or something.
racing on them just seems to be a sort of need to prove something, which from mr day’s perspective seems understandable. he continues to have to deal with idiot know-it-alls who have zero first hand knowledge of them or their effects attempting ( inexplicably ) to sound as if they do. but, as a user i found them to be much simpler than that, and the benfits easier to enjoy afteri acknowedged the obvious experiencial fact that they worked and then just used them as i saw and felt suited. the continued bluster around them is plain stupid, from the best user standpoint, IMHO. they are one of the coolest training thing ever, and should just be used as such as motivation, need, and circumstance allow - just like any training plan/device/product.
You’re 100% right Francois… but remember that in swimming there are drills that are extremely hard to do and that have close to ZERO transfer to your swimming efficiency.
oh yes, i agree with francois in addition to devashish and mr day.
francois, i think you gotta remeber that users such as you and i do not need to continue to have PC’s PROVE themselves to us. we know that we ride better when we have adequate rest, for example, and we try to get it. we do not need to rest optimally every single day in order to try to defend the obvious fact that better rest makes us better riders. smilarly, we do not feel the need to use PC’s optimally every day, either. we know they work, what they do, and we work them in the best we can or as we see fit.
mr day DOES have to do that ( PROVE them), with regard to PC’s, due to the idiot know-it-alls i referenced above. hence, his continuing issuance of what might be termed optimal use of them. i personally feel both interpretations can co-exist, but life is easier when you just get to enjoy them, that is for sure.
t-t-n, I’m glad you’re back, I missed your religious-like defense of PC’s, I find it quite amusing, for example, the use of the word “we” on this last post 
.
Yeah… most people say bad things about heroin without even trying 
thank you for the warm greeting, smartass. i likewise continue to enjoy your inane and uniformed commentary, such as this last post, for example! never one far away with you and PC, as always.
Frank, it appears that we do have a number of >2 season PC riders, who used them to get adapted (including myself) and now feel that the max benefit is mixed use. I really did not get to go with the “mixed use approach this year”. I was exclusively on PC’s from April till mid June and then exclusively on PC’s from mid June till mid Sep. I was able to go back to PC riding in a reasonable fashion. I am interested in seeing how the PC’s work next year. I plan to use them four days a week for bike commuting typically 30-90 min each day depending on the route I take and then use my tribike with conventional cranks on the midweek hard 90k ride and the weekend long ride. I would imagine that at some point (like TTN noted), that most users will come around to this “mixed use” if they acquire 2 bikes. If not, they will leave them in the garage, as they will also want to ride conventional cranks for things like high speed descents down Izouard, bunny hopping railway tracks and riding like the rest of their buddies, without the fear of being dropped during a surge at 140K into a ride, when you are 60K away from home. Trust me, this has happened to me, and it really sucks having to come back solo, knowing that there is no real reason why you might have not been the guy doing the surging and spitting guys out the back if you were on conventional cranks.
I think the “mixed usage model” will also optimize stomping muscles and pulling muscles. I truly feel that my “stomping muscles” don’t do as much work as they do when riding PC’s cause they are limited by the pulling muscles. You may arguably the claim that I am not fully adapted, but any product that requires 2 years and over 15000K for full adaptation would be one that the majority would be somewhat uninterested in (in my opinion).
I think that after some time, the mixed usage model is the way to go.
SMC says “I think that alone says a lot about the effect of PC’s on pedaling dynamics”
Perhaps. I personally think it says more about how hard it is to retrain the brain after 10-50 years of doing something another way.
Frank
Dev wrote: " I think the strength and endurance developed in the hamstrings and hip flexors holds over for quite some time though."
Strength and endurance is one thing. Unconscious brain coordination is another. If either one goes away, it doesn’t matter if the other is there. I don’t say it goes away immediately. Just that it will go away. The better the base, the slower it probably goes away.
Agreed to the two components, and yes they do deteriorate somewhat, but they are quick to come back. Thus the mixed usage approach which might offer the best of both “types of pedalling”
Here’s my question. Just what kind of information, study, evaluation, results…whatever will any and or all of you need before you are willing to accept even the most remote possibility that PCs actually provide some benefit. I don’t know exactly what kind of benefits PCs claim to make but I’m guessing this is the heart of the matter. But seriously, at what point does the mud slinging stop? As mentioned in someone elses post…we’re all so willing to accept the fact that Cervelo provides a worthwhile advantage for the cost but not so for PCs…why is that? Has anyone seen windtunnel data that confirms this? For that matter has anyone ever seen any wind tunnel data that doesn’t confirm what the maker set out to prove? Do we need a bunch of unbiased researchers to take every bike in every make and model in every size…at every wind angle into a wind tunnel and come up with the be all and end all of aero bikes? I guess even that wouldn’t help much given that at some point in time someone other than the person doing the test will have to be riding those bikes…throwing all that hard earned data out the window once more.
Frank…not sure if your study/experiment…whatever will get the results you desire…but I for one hope so. If for no other reason but to give you some satisfaction that all your hard work has finally paid off. What other people think at this point is moot…let them build their own product and try to make a living off it by getting bashed by people that should be supporting innovation.
Dev writes: “Trust me, this has happened to me, and it really sucks having to come back solo, knowing that there is no real reason why you might have not been the guy doing the surging and spitting guys out the back if you were on conventional cranks.”
Dev.
Hate to say this but I think this says you are still not completely adapted than mixed usage is the way to go. Mixed usage may be the best way if one “needs” these little psychological lifts during training. But if one is adequately adapted to the PC’s they should be able to do everything they do on regular cranks for the same amount of time. If they cannot, then they are not completely adapted and need a better base. If one is completely adapted it shouldn’t matter which cranks are on your bike (other than the weight). What other explanation could there be?
Why do you think 2 years is an inordinate amount of time to fully adapt to the PC’s. How long did it take you to peak your pushing muscles when you started getting serous about racing a bicycle. I suspect it was a lot longer than 2 years. Why do you think the pulling muscles would be any different? Not that mixed usage is not compatible with improvement but, in my opinion, getting the optimum benefit requires being able to see the forest in the trees and exclusive use (at least in training) for well beyond two years.
If it took two years of struggling for people to see any benefit we wouldn’t sell any of these. Thankfully, it doesn’t. The question really is, what does it take to see complete and optimum benefit? Smart people can differ on this and we will have to wait to see the results of a lot of people using different techniques to be able to make anything other than guesses.
Frank
gotta love mr day. mr day there are definitely times out on the road that a fellow is lacking a little snap with those gold rascals on the bike. like i said, maybe you need to bunnyhop a hedgehog, sprint over some gravel, and then ride a speed tuck down a huge hill to stay in the bunch or they will gleefully leave your sorry ass to ride home alone just you did one of them last week. cain’t do it on the PC’s.
i dig mine the most, as you know, but do enjoy the mixed use paradigm. as noted, i do not need them to proove themselves to me anymore.
and, to kentiger. you are correct. how many of us accept the idea that for best performance we need to get good sleep, for example. have you read a study about it? where is the proof, i say !!! let us see the research paper ! etc. it is stupid. they are a simple training tool, that gives easily seen feedback and results, just like getting a good nite’s sleep makes you say " hey whaddyaknow i slept well and now i feel great". who knows why the idiots with no experience with them think their uninformed views are valid . . . . . something about heroin, was it? yah, that made sense - it is a puzzle - that is certain.
I guess my point is that asking most people to spend 2 years and 15,000K on PCs and still not being “fully adapted” is a tall order that many will have insufficient patience to endure (thus the PCs found in garages and eBay). I don’t need the psychological lift of punishing my training partners, in fact I typically bury most of the them when it counts in racing, but I do like the social aspect of training with friends and having to either finish a ride solo, or slow down and hold the others back is not my idea of fun. If I am not having fun, then I am not interested in training.
Perhaps I will never “adapt” in the optimal way, but I like riding both types of cranks, so I’ll settle for the mixed usage model now that I have two complete bikes. I suspect that this is in line with what a few others are experiencing at this point in the “customer usage cycle”.
devashish. i agree. i see PC as similar to another niche bike, in the long term. think of it like a fixie that actually does what people think a fixie does, for example. it would be a bigger freak than me that would or could just ride PC for all time after the initial adaptation period, even as much as i dig them. for most people - certainly over time i would hazard to say a PC bike is essential or highly advised. like a fix, an older steel long chainstay bike set up with big fat tires would be close to perfect, in my view. or something like a surly long haul trucker / or cross bike. cheap, sturdy, comfy, and practical - something to just go train like a dog on. nice. no controversy, just a killer training device.
If it takes mixed usage for any one person to use the product, then that is optimum for that person. It is what, I suspect, most customers do. I simply am stating I don’t believe it is the optimum use of the product if one is interested in extracting all of the potential of the product. I accept that everyone uses them differently. I simply put forth my opinion as to how they should be best used if the user wants to get the most speed improvement bang for the buck. It is not in my best interest to give lesser advice, especially in view of my claims. If people choose to do something different, and many do, that is their choice. If I find out that there is good evidence to support these other methods of use are better then I will revise my recommendations for “optimum” benefit for everyone.
It makes no sense to me why the very serious athlete would want to do anything that risks back sliding (which you have noted), even if it comes back quickly (which you state). To me, mixed use makes no sense to facilitate adaption and mixed use just makes no sense once one is adapted, if one wants to maximize the speed benefits. That is my story and I’m sticking with it, at least for now.
Frank
ttn,
Which do you believe has most to offer in a TT,
to be able to use maximum arm resistance when
generating the pedal power while riding at speed
in the saddle, or trying to get some extra power
by pulling up the rising leg.
PC’s are excellent for teaching the circular pedaling
style but there, what they have to offer ends.
perfection. what they have ofered and provided me certainly does not end there, i’m afraid. after two years on them i can stand and clear hills in a huge ass gear on my singlespeed with a technique and rapid recovery heretofore unavailable to me. i can enjoy a very active and rapid/strong ride on my fixed gear using muscles and coordination i never had before, nor was going to ever. i can sit in groups and recover super fast light pedalling with a sweet full circle stoke, or active upstroke/absent downstroke sorta thing. other things, too. as for your question about arms resisting and whatever, who knows, and what has that got to do with PC? what can i say, they build coordiation and muscles that make the pedals go 'round like nothing else out there. this is a good thing. oddly, at no time do i ever really think that i am - as you allude - adding power in the upstroke, per se. i am just doing things better, stronger, more coordinated, and with a greater number of options than i did before. i have been riding bikes a very long time, and attributing these things i see and feel to PC is as sure as saying when i sleep i wake up less tired. it is simple, and plain. nothing real controversial about it, they do what they do and if you rode them for two years you would know that also.
perfection. what they have ofered and provided me certainly does not end there, i’m afraid. after two years on them i can stand and clear hills in a huge ass gear on my singlespeed with a technique and rapid recovery heretofore unavailable to me. i can enjoy a very active and rapid/strong ride on my fixed gear using muscles and coordination i never had before, nor was going to ever. i can sit in groups and recover super fast light pedalling with a sweet full circle stoke, or active upstroke/absent downstroke sorta thing. other things, too. as for your question about arms resisting and whatever, who knows, and what has that got to do with PC? what can i say, they build coordiation and muscles that make the pedals go 'round like nothing else out there. this is a good thing. oddly, at no time do i ever really think that i am - as you allude - adding power in the upstroke, per se. i am just doing things better, stronger, more coordinated, and with a greater number of options than i did before. i have been riding bikes a very long time, and attributing these things i see and feel to PC is as sure as saying when i sleep i wake up less tired. it is simple, and plain. nothing real controversial about it, they do what they do and if you rode them for two years you would know that also.
Yes, you have confirmed what I have just said, they
helped you perfect the circular pedaling style.
Using pulling up power when out of the saddle on
hills can be done by anyone with or without PC’s
and it can be beneficial but it’s when you try to
use pulling up power when at speed in the saddle
that you lose this advantage, it’s to do with balance
on the saddle.