ie. the position used by Landis and others.
I’m attempting to compile a list of people who are proven to be faster with it. Can anyone help me with the list of names?
It’s all part of a project that I’m doing at uni with the aim of working out what makes it work and therefore allowing people to know if it’s better for them without forcing them to go to a wind tunnel.
oops, my bad. Thought this was pervert thread.
I think you mean the Praying Mantis position.
Hmm, I guess it’d be a good place to start by getting the name right!
Yes, “preying mantis position”. Let’s go with that instead!
Getting closer 
Landis and Leipheimer have been successful with it. Cancellara tried it (see the Tour of California last year), then abandoned it. Now the UCI had changed the rules and nobody will be able to use it. Basically, they now say that forearms must be pretty much parallel to the ground. (That’s a synthesis of what the new rules state.)
I tried the mantis thing in my own time trialing last year. Had a couple of my worst races of the year with it. It’s nice and low (when your elbows go down like that, your shoulders and head come down, too), but I couldn’t generate power. Can’t say I really gave it much time for adaptation, though. I just didn’t like it. But it’s a moot point now.
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Is it banned in Triathlons?
no, but it totally depends on the person…whether comfortable or not, safe or not, and aerodynamically depends on shoulder width vs body etc (could be worse or better). there was some talk from Floyd’s guys i believe about it out there somewhere
ie. the position used by Landis and others.
I’m attempting to compile a list of people who are proven to be faster with it. Can anyone help me with the list of names?
It’s all part of a project that I’m doing at uni with the aim of working out what makes it work and therefore allowing people to know if it’s better for them without forcing them to go to a wind tunnel.
It is demonstrably faster for me (at least in close to zero yaw conditions) and I didn’t have to go to a wind tunnel to figure it out. I just “Chung’d” it! 
Landis and Leipheimer have been successful with it. Cancellara tried it (see the Tour of California last year), then abandoned it. Now the UCI had changed the rules and nobody will be able to use it. Basically, they now say that forearms must be pretty much parallel to the ground. (That’s a synthesis of what the new rules state.)
Well…yes and no. The rules DO NOT say that the forearms need to be parallel to the ground…and neither does the “clarification” that they issued. The only thing the UCI really clarified last year was that the aero extensions need to leave the base bar “level” (whatever that means)…even though the rules don’t really say that either . All that means is if you want to have your hands above the elbow pads, you need some custom bent extensions that put the attachment to the base bar “horizontal” and then curve up to where you want the hands. If you study the rules, you’ll see that they state that the hands can be anywhere in a box bounded by a line through the steering axis, the top of the seat, the forward extension limit line, and the top of the tire.
As you can see from the TdF photos, Levi didn’t really change his position a whole lot after this “clarification” came down compared to what he was doing earlier in the year. He basically only had to make sure he wasn’t running afoul of the “hand position can’t be above the level of the seat” rule (which I think at the TOC he may actually have been afoul…but not called on it).
Cancellara, on the other hand, was actually faster with the position. IIRC, it was only after being forced to rotate his bars down only minutes before a TT start (Tour de Suisse?) that he basically gave it up. I think the CSC guys just decided to not fight it and went flat to prevent any future potential problems…mostly because the “clarification” was so…umm…clear.
It was actually all pretty silly…
I tried the mantis thing in my own time trialing last year. Had a couple of my worst races of the year with it. It’s nice and low (when your elbows go down like that, your shoulders and head come down, too), but I couldn’t generate power. Can’t say I really gave it much time for adaptation, though. I just didn’t like it. But it’s a moot point now.
Interesting…my experience was completely the opposite. After testing it and finding it to be faster than the same position with arms level, I set some of my fastest times ever with that position. One thing I apparently did different than you, though, was that I actually raised the base bar up slightly to go along with the tipping up of the aero bars. This resulted in my head and shoulders being at the same height as with flat bars and I didn’t accidentally unduly close off my hip angle. I also found that the position is GREAT for being able to power over small rollers since I can use my arms to draw myself forward and just barely touch the tip of the saddle with my arse. This opens up my hip angle and almost feels like I’m running.
Oh yeah…I also did some extended climbing in the position (i.e. ~3 miles at 8% average grade) and when geared low enough that I can keep my rpms in a range of 75-85, I can put out within a handful of watts the same power as if I was climbing the same hill on my road bike. In the extended climbing, with the bike tilted up like that, I also tended to pull myself forward to do this.
So…YMMV
Is it banned in Triathlons?
Not as far as I know. Triathlon officials don’t care if anyone “looks like Floyd”
I would only attempt this position in a race, while you are camoflauged by hundreds of other spandex/aero helmet wearing triathletes. Doing normal training rides like this is far too dangerous with the risk of being hit in the head with a beer bottle, or run off the road.
I would only attempt this position in a race, while you are camoflauged by hundreds of other spandex/aero helmet wearing triathletes. Doing normal training rides like this is far too dangerous with the risk of being hit in the head with a beer bottle, or run off the road.
I’ll remember to quote that in my report!
you were thinking of “the Angry Crab”, Tony Kornheiser’s signature move.
was wondering how many people that have tried this position have found it successful and have stayed with it.
i have recently got a new p3c and am looking at testin different positions i do not have access to tunnel and will only have power measurment on a turbo.
what test should i use for loss in power
1/set heart rate for set distance/time
or 2/ max test for set time.
if people could advise on duration for tests
do people have pictures of there new position
cheers jc
was wondering how many people that have tried this position have found it successful and have stayed with it.
i have recently got a new p3c and am looking at testin different positions i do not have access to tunnel and will only have power measurment on a turbo.
what test should i use for loss in power
1/set heart rate for set distance/time
or 2/ max test for set time.
if people could advise on duration for tests
do people have pictures of there new position
cheers jc
Well…testing indoors only may get you half of the equation (i.e. looking at power vs hr or something like that on a trainer may not tell you anything). The other half is “what is the reduction in drag?” Short of going into a wind tunnel, the only other way to reasonably quantify that is through a “field test” using a mobile power meter.
That way you can figure out which position has the best power/drag ratio. In other words, it may be “worth it” to give up a little bit of power if the drag savings actually end up making you faster…and vice versa, of course (i.e. giving up some drag savings to get a lot more power).
All that really matters is “Am I faster?”…and that’s determined by power/drag, not solely the numerator or the denominator.
LEMOND:
(apologies for linking to Gear’s blog, but I have the issue here as well)…
g
Read this!
I think this explains it and many other positions.
LEMOND:
(apologies for linking to Gear’s blog, but I have the issue here as well)…
g
Yep…my hand position is actually somewhere between Mr. LeMond’s and what Levi and Floyd like to use…
It’s too bad Greg’s bars are tilted up though…the commissaires would make him tilt them down nowadays
How are you going to prove they are faster with it? Wouldn’t you have to test the person on the exact same course, under the exact same circumstances with two different aerobars to get this type of conclusion? Who is to say Landis couldn’t have gone even faster using another type of aerobar?
Just think what he could have done without the alleged PED’s!