Landis mentioned in his book that the position was due to his hip more than other reason.
Persaonlly I don’t think you can generalise much when it comes to finding a individuals position. Even when you ignore comfort and sustainable power output what works for one person in a wind tunnel deosn’t allways work for another.
Interesting…my experience was completely the opposite. After testing it and finding it to be faster than the same position with arms level, I set some of my fastest times ever with that position. One thing I apparently did different than you, though, was that I actually raised the base bar up slightly to go along with the tipping up of the aero bars. This resulted in my head and shoulders being at the same height as with flat bars and I didn’t accidentally unduly close off my hip angle.
I think this is probably where I erred in my attempt at this position. I got too excited to see how low the dropped elbows got me and didn’t account for how much it closed off the hip angle. But also, I attempted this during the hottest part of the year and at a time I was pretty burned out. I wouldn’t say I gave it a real fair shot.
Lately I’ve been riding with a hand position that looks quite a lot like what Lemond has going in that photo posted earlier on this thread. It’s not a mantis, but it’s not flat forearms, either. I REALLY like it. I’m observing all that you observed. It seems to be a very powerful position when the road tips up … slightly or moreso. It’s also very comfortable for extended rides. First race of the years is three weeks out now and I can’t wait to see how it feels full-on.
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I thought Tk’s move was the penguin dance…picture me moving my shoulders up and down in an extremely silly way…
About that pic of Lemond… He’s riding a funny bike, with a downward-sloping top tube. The BARS are pointing up because he’s got HUGE risers under the pads – needed them because the funny bike was geared toward putting the bullhorns lower than standard drops on a roade bike. So while it looks like he’s riding “mantis” style, his arms are pretty much parallel to the ground.
About that pic of Lemond…
I’ve seen that pic of Lemond and video and all that many, many times over many, many years. I remember that first race where he slapped on those bars like it was yesterday. I’m an old geezer. Despite the fact that is, indeed, a funny bike, his forearms are tilted up slightly … as are mine at present. Not mantis-style, but not horizontal, either.
Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvwtOQYQ-E
I just noticed that, towards the start, he gripped the bar a bit differently than he was doing towards the end. More elevated hands initially. More choked up and horizontal later.
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Landis mentioned in his book that the position was due to his hip more than other reason.
True…he needed to keep a more open “hip angle” because of the bad hip. But, he also went into the tunnel and found it was actually a pretty fast position as well.
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=WHATS_NEW&WHATS_NEW.ID=67&PRSET_VERSION=5
Hmmm…low drag AND a more open hip angle…gee I wonder why Levi likes it as well? 
Tk’s move was the penguin dance
aaahh, the penguin dance…that Kornheiser is quite a stud, isn’t he?
Wilbon: Pardon the Interruption, but I’m Mike Wilbon. Tony, Joe Torre might lose his job. What would you do if you lost yours?
Tony: I’m Tony Kornheiser, I don’t know, probably get back into porn.
Wilbon: BACK into porn?
Tony: Late 60’s, early 70’s, my signature move was called the Angry Crab. I won awards for that.
Have we definitively determined that the mantis position was not due to an attempt to get around the 75cm UCI rule? Raising the hands reduces the forward extension?
Have we definitively determined that the mantis position was not due to an attempt to get around the 75cm UCI rule? Raising the hands reduces the forward extension?
I wish I could remember where I heard this. Dang … getting old is rough sometimes. Anyway, when I was looking at the Trek TTX frames and found they had nothing smaller than a 54cm, I wondered how in the world Levi fit on that. I was told his frame was NOT custom and that his adoption of the mantis thing was in part to allow him to achieve a low position on a frame that was too large for him. As I said earlier, dropping the elbows like that lowers the shoulders and head.
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Have we definitively determined that the mantis position was not due to an attempt to get around the 75cm UCI rule? Raising the hands reduces the forward extension?
I’m sure it partially is…after all, if that rule wasn’t in place Landis probably could’ve gone all “Superman” with his arms and have ridden just as far forward. That might actually be an even faster position in a drag sense.
Then again, he would’ve looked like Obree…and we can’t have that now, can we?
The point is that in order to get his torso low enough to have a reasonable drag and also accommodate his requirement for a more open hip angle, to be within the rules he couldn’t have his arms flat…unless, of course, they were pulled in under his chest…oh wait…there’s that dang Obree guy again
I tried the mantis thing in my own time trialing last year. Had a couple of my worst races of the year with it. It’s nice and low (when your elbows go down like that, your shoulders and head come down, too), but I couldn’t generate power. Can’t say I really gave it much time for adaptation, though. I just didn’t like it. But it’s a moot point now.
Interesting…my experience was completely the opposite. After testing it and finding it to be faster than the same position with arms level, I set some of my fastest times ever with that position. One thing I apparently did different than you, though, was that I actually raised the base bar up slightly to go along with the tipping up of the aero bars. This resulted in my head and shoulders being at the same height as with flat bars and I didn’t accidentally unduly close off my hip angle. I also found that the position is GREAT for being able to power over small rollers since I can use my arms to draw myself forward and just barely touch the tip of the saddle with my arse. This opens up my hip angle and almost feels like I’m running.
Oh yeah…I also did some extended climbing in the position (i.e. ~3 miles at 8% average grade) and when geared low enough that I can keep my rpms in a range of 75-85, I can put out within a handful of watts the same power as if I was climbing the same hill on my road bike. In the extended climbing, with the bike tilted up like that, I also tended to pull myself forward to do this.
So…YMMV
I did some field testing with it too, I found that power went down, speed went down slightly, and it felt rubbish! Curiously, having my hands angled down a little bit lets me get out significantly more power than hands level. Also with the Landis position the bike was ungainly, esp. through corners as I assume my centre of wotsit was higher
Xav
great photo.
but note one critical thing: greg’s aerobars are angled way up, but his forearms are actually near level.
I did some field testing with it too, I found that power went down, speed went down slightly, and it felt rubbish! Curiously, having my hands angled down a little bit lets me get out significantly more power than hands level. Also with the Landis position the bike was ungainly, esp. through corners as I assume my centre of wotsit was higher
Xav
Did you change your base bar level with the changes? If not, sounds to me like you prefer a more open hip angle. Just as tilting the hands up drops the shoulders, tilting them down should raise them if you don’t change the base bar height. That makes your “hip angle” more open. Just a thought.
I did some field testing with it too, I found that power went down, speed went down slightly, and it felt rubbish! Curiously, having my hands angled down a little bit lets me get out significantly more power than hands level. Also with the Landis position the bike was ungainly, esp. through corners as I assume my centre of wotsit was higher
Xav
Did you change your base bar level with the changes? If not, sounds to me like you prefer a more open hip angle. Just as tilting the hands up drops the shoulders, tilting them down should raise them if you don’t change the base bar height. That makes your “hip angle” more open. Just a thought.
The base bar stayed the same height, so I probably was changing the hip angle now you mention it. It’s all very technical 
I’m just desperately trying to hit the big 4 for 20min, getting there but don’t want to look like a brick wall in the process
Xav
Has anyone actually heard any figures?
I’m knocking together a presentation as to why it’s worthwhile and being able to give a number or two will help me justify actually doing this.
PS. I’ll post the results on here at the end (About May time) so that you can all find out what makes it work!
The postion that Landis et al adopted is nothing new. When the aero bars first came out it’s the postion that we all rode it. We thought that assuming the tuck and hand position (up higher and more in front of the face) of a downhill skier was what was best, and for the first few years, thats the way we all rode( See pic below of some bozo named Fleck, IMH circa '93) Then things changed and the forearms started to become more paralell to the ground and then in the extreme case like Jan Ullrich, actually be angled down to the ground. I am not an aerodynamic expert, but visually the original positioning, or as it’s now called, the Praying Mantis postion, looks more aero. However, I would assume that the wind tunnel has put some truth and facts to this.
Has anyone actually heard any figures?
I’m knocking together a presentation as to why it’s worthwhile and being able to give a number or two will help me justify actually doing this.
PS. I’ll post the results on here at the end (About May time) so that you can all find out what makes it work!
For me, it measured out to be ~1s/km faster than an equivalent “level arms” position (at yaw angles close to zero since I’m using a field test method in low wind conditions to measure). I’m talking basically the difference in these 2 positions below, but with the equipment shown in the second pic…and before anyone says anything, my seat was slightly too high in the second pic
It looks like Fleck’s seat is too high
Just thought I’d chip in.
More seriously, from what I’ve read it seems like the determining factor for whether to use the praying mantis is flexibility–specifically if your shoulders get narrower when you bring them into that position. Leipheimer is superflexible (he’s way into yoga); most of the rest of us aren’t.
Knocked this up last night, based on some somewhat simplistic calculations and thought you lot might like to see it:
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