The fat adapted approach or not

Hi all,

I have been trying to pay attention to these two camps on nutrition and racing to find out what works best for me

a) The fat adapted approach where you teach your body to burn fat instead of carbs. It would seem that UCAN is a good fit for this approach
b) separate your calories from your hydration and eat real food to properly fuel your workouts. Options like OSMO and Scratch seem to fit this bill amongst other options…

Here is where I am getting caught up:

1 - Some say that if you go the route of reduced calories to allow the body to adjust to burn fat, the opposite happens. Your body holds onto the fat to save for the future as opposed to burning it.
2 - I tried the OSMO/real calories in training and racing IMLP and I found I was constantly eating and eating a lot…which kind of was hard to manage.

I know this discussion goes much deeper then the above but thats where I am at right now. Just trying to figure out the above two…

following
.

I’d start here

and also wonder why the company that used to be all about “separate your calories from your hydration and eat real food to properly fuel instead of gels, etc” now sells gummy candies.

Hi all,

eem that UCAN is a good fit for this approach
b) separate your calories from your hydration and eat real food to properly fuel your workouts. Options like OSMO and Scratch seem to fit this bill amongst other options…

Are OSMO and Scratch ‘real food’?

Hi all,

I have been trying to pay attention to these two camps on nutrition and racing to find out what works best for me

a) The fat adapted approach where you teach your body to burn fat instead of carbs. It would seem that UCAN is a good fit for this approach
b) separate your calories from your hydration and eat real food to properly fuel your workouts. Options like OSMO and Scratch seem to fit this bill amongst other options…

Here is where I am getting caught up:

**1 - Some say that if you go the route of reduced calories to allow the body to adjust to burn fat, the opposite happens. Your body holds onto the fat to save for the future as opposed to burning it. **
2 - I tried the OSMO/real calories in training and racing IMLP and I found I was constantly eating and eating a lot…which kind of was hard to manage.

I know this discussion goes much deeper then the above but thats where I am at right now. Just trying to figure out the above two…

I think you are mis-interpreting the fat burning concept. It’s not about reducing calories. Its about increasing the fat content of the diet to stimulate fat preference in fuel utilization, not about caloric restriction. Once that adaptation occurs (that’s where the argument is right now - does it really happen or not), then the need for calories from exogenous carbohydrates is reduced and therefore the need for high caloric input is reduced (as a byproduct of using the stored fat versus glycogen from sugar conversion). So its not really caloric restriction, more like substrate utilization shift. You are not dropping the calories to allow the fat to burn, you are training your system to burn fat first regardless of how much sugar is available. If it does not need the sugar, then you can reduce the input accordingly. It works for some people better than others and depends highly upon the intensity of the training and racing you plan to do. I would not see the concept being very useful for International distance racing or even some fast HIM events, however when you get into IM and ultra-distance cycling/running, there is some evidence (not case studies, more n=1 stuff) to suggest there may be something worth looking at.

I spent about a year on low carb / very low carb diets… no bread, no pasta, no starchy vegetables (from potatoes to carrots).

The key piece of literature is: http://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-Low-Carbohydrate-Performance/dp/0983490716/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1444845332&sr=1-1&keywords=art+and+science+of+low+carbohydrate+performance

At a very high level, the book’s assertions are:
When running on glycogen you can only hold a very small amount of fuel
Your body has an almost unlimited amount of fat that can be converted to fuel (lipogenesis)
If your body is in this keto adapted mode, hydration (and electrolytes) are important but your fuel comes from fat

I went all in for about a year

Sadly for me, this did not improve performance (actually it hurt it)
I never got that the energy to go all day mode.
It did not help me lose weight
This was not a lifestyle that i could maintain long term
The weight that i lost came back incredibly fast (digesting carbs takes water, eliminate the carbs and you will temporarily dehydrate your digestive water stores… begin eating carbs and the weight returns)

Ultimately, the thing that had me abandon this is…if low carb/fat adaptation was as good as claimed… why isn’t everyone doing this?

(Currently i am on an everything in moderation diet and trying to hold a minor caloric deficit… which isn’t causing the weight to go as fast as i would hope either)

I think you are mis-interpreting the fat burning concept. It’s not about reducing calories. Its about increasing the fat content of the diet to stimulate fat preference in fuel utilization, not about caloric restriction. Once that adaptation occurs (that’s where the argument is right now - does it really happen or not), then the need for calories from exogenous carbohydrates is reduced and therefore the need for high caloric input is reduced (as a byproduct of using the stored fat versus glycogen from sugar conversion). So its not really caloric restriction, more like substrate utilization shift. You are not dropping the calories to allow the fat to burn, you are training your system to burn fat first regardless of how much sugar is available. If it does not need the sugar, then you can reduce the input accordingly. It works for some people better than others and depends highly upon the intensity of the training and racing you plan to do. I would not see the concept being very useful for International distance racing or even some fast HIM events, however when you get into IM and ultra-distance cycling/running, there is some evidence (not case studies, more n=1 stuff) to suggest there may be something worth looking at.

There is no disagreement in the field about whether you can alter substrate utilization through dietary manipulation or not. Even Louise Burke (the largest proponent against increased fat utilization) et al. agree that you can influence fat oxidation etc. The question is whether it improves performance.

The short answer is no, it does not. You will not run of bike faster because of increased fat oxidation. There has been much research into this area. Ultimately fat oxidation is limited and it just cannot provide enough energy for higher levels of exertion. One particular flaw, however, is that it is mostly centered around distances such as 10K, which leads us to the “Moderate Answer”.

The moderate answer is that we know it doesn’t make you faster, however, it may help you slow down less. This may be achieved by focusing substrate utilization on fat, which is in abundance for all of us, allowing the sparing of glycogen stores. If this were to be beneficial it would be beneficial in events with very monotonous, low to moderate, intensity levels. If you event requires a high power output (whether sustained like a 40k TT or surges like a road race) then there is no benefit.

The long answer is that perhaps by training low and racing high you can get the best of both worlds. There may be increased mitochondrial biogenesis through increased stimulation of PCG-1a in a low glycogen environment. You’ll feel like crap. Your training intensities will be low. However, if used as an appropriate tool (Like intervals, Base rides etc) you may be able to use dietary manipulations to improve mitochondrial function and hence performance. Often, most people get this wrong and do more harm than good, which is why I rarely fully describe how to do it or give advice that people ought to do it.

I think you are mis-interpreting the fat burning concept. It’s not about reducing calories. Its about increasing the fat content of the diet to stimulate fat preference in fuel utilization, not about caloric restriction. Once that adaptation occurs (that’s where the argument is right now - does it really happen or not), then the need for calories from exogenous carbohydrates is reduced and therefore the need for high caloric input is reduced (as a byproduct of using the stored fat versus glycogen from sugar conversion). So its not really caloric restriction, more like substrate utilization shift. You are not dropping the calories to allow the fat to burn, you are training your system to burn fat first regardless of how much sugar is available. If it does not need the sugar, then you can reduce the input accordingly. It works for some people better than others and depends highly upon the intensity of the training and racing you plan to do. I would not see the concept being very useful for International distance racing or even some fast HIM events, however when you get into IM and ultra-distance cycling/running, there is some evidence (not case studies, more n=1 stuff) to suggest there may be something worth looking at.

There is no disagreement in the field about whether you can alter substrate utilization through dietary manipulation or not. Even Louise Burke (the largest proponent against increased fat utilization) et al. agree that you can influence fat oxidation etc. The question is whether it improves performance.

The short answer is no, it does not. You will not run of bike faster because of increased fat oxidation. There has been much research into this area. Ultimately fat oxidation is limited and it just cannot provide enough energy for higher levels of exertion. One particular flaw, however, is that it is mostly centered around distances such as 10K, which leads us to the “Moderate Answer”.

The moderate answer is that we know it doesn’t make you faster, however, it may help you slow down less. This may be achieved by focusing substrate utilization on fat, which is in abundance for all of us, allowing the sparing of glycogen stores. If this were to be beneficial it would be beneficial in events with very monotonous, low to moderate, intensity levels. If you event requires a high power output (whether sustained like a 40k TT or surges like a road race) then there is no benefit.

The long answer is that perhaps by training low and racing high you can get the best of both worlds. There may be increased mitochondrial biogenesis through increased stimulation of PCG-1a in a low glycogen environment. You’ll feel like crap. Your training intensities will be low. However, if used as an appropriate tool (Like intervals, Base rides etc) you may be able to use dietary manipulations to improve mitochondrial function and hence performance. Often, most people get this wrong and do more harm than good, which is why I rarely fully describe how to do it or give advice that people ought to do it.

I mean this with no-disrespect…but can you state that in much simpler terms…that went way over my head.

I would like to add that I really thought i found my answer with OSMO this year. In years past Perform, Cytomax, and the Gatorade that is now on IM branded races left me so thirsty, parched and dying for water during long training days and racing. OSMO has 100% solved the hydration end of things for me. But, at IMLP trying to get in around 200 calories from food had me packing so many Cliff Z bars and Honey Stinger Waffles that I thought I have to figure out a simpler approach…

Agree with your post, the “performance” benefit may vet itself out in ultras (lower intensities) first as it will be the best event to exploit the relative substrate shift to fat oxidation with higher fat diets/training. There are some argued secondary gains such as potentially lower nutrition requirements during the event due to relative increase in fat oxidation which is in plentiful supply versus carbo in the body.

Expect some more from this group on the subject:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/846278

Cheers!

I dont have specific answers to your questions but I will share my experience and hope it helps:

I tried it for 1 year. Primarily used UCAN and I really like the stuff. With the fat adaptation I feel like I got better at using fat however, I just got really good at going slow. IOW I could not train or race at the same intensity(speed) that I could previously or can now. My primary distance is 13.1 and as others have said above, its the longer distances that you probably get the benefit from the fat utilization.
Now that I am back on the carbs…the intensity is back and the speed is back. I believe it MAY be worth a try because it may work better for you.
During the ‘fat training’ I did have a more leveled out energy throughout the day(workouts) and general day to day activities. My energy now is a little more up and down. That makes perfect sense though considering the higher glycemic index foods vs the fatty foods. just my n=1

I dont have specific answers to your questions but I will share my experience and hope it helps:

I tried it for 1 year. Primarily used UCAN and I really like the stuff. With the fat adaptation I feel like I got better at using fat however, I just got really good at going slow. IOW I could not train or race at the same intensity(speed) that I could previously or can now. My primary distance is 13.1 and as others have said above, its the longer distances that you probably get the benefit from the fat utilization.
Now that I am back on the carbs…the intensity is back and the speed is back. I believe it MAY be worth a try because it may work better for you.
During the ‘fat training’ I did have a more leveled out energy throughout the day(workouts) and general day to day activities. My energy now is a little more up and down. That makes perfect sense though considering the higher glycemic index foods vs the fatty foods. just my n=1

I’ve been doing it on and off for 18 months and my experiences broadly match these. ‘Smooth energy’ was the biggest change for me and great for work. I also became more lean, but I’m pretty sure this is because my protein intake increased and I was satiated on fewer calories (I kept a food journal for a couple months which confirmed I was undereating generally), rather than my body becoming a ‘fat burning machine’. I was about 140lbs (@ 5ft6) and dropped to 128lbs at which point I felt very weak even though I could do a 7 hour bike ride with no issues. Maybe I just executed the nutrition strategy incorrectly but now I follow the rules more loosely

Research ketogenic diet.

The studies that carboholics mention prove fat is not a great fuel source, dont realize it takes a long time to adjust to this fuel source.

http://paleorunner.org/2013/11/high-intensity-exercise-on-ketogenic.html/

I spent about a year on low carb / very low carb diets… no bread, no pasta, no starchy vegetables (from potatoes to carrots).

The key piece of literature is: http://www.amazon.com/...ohydrate+performance

At a very high level, the book’s assertions are:
When running on glycogen you can only hold a very small amount of fuel
Your body has an almost unlimited amount of fat that can be converted to fuel (lipogenesis)
If your body is in this keto adapted mode, hydration (and electrolytes) are important but your fuel comes from fat

I went all in for about a year

Sadly for me, this did not improve performance (actually it hurt it)
I never got that the energy to go all day mode.
It did not help me lose weight
This was not a lifestyle that i could maintain long term
The weight that i lost came back incredibly fast (digesting carbs takes water, eliminate the carbs and you will temporarily dehydrate your digestive water stores… begin eating carbs and the weight returns)

Ultimately, the thing that had me abandon this is…if low carb/fat adaptation was as good as claimed… why isn’t everyone doing this?

(Currently i am on an everything in moderation diet and trying to hold a minor caloric deficit… which isn’t causing the weight to go as fast as i would hope either)

What I have read is that the human body basically runs on carbs - even when going to a fat adapted or ketogenic diet. When on a fat adapted diet or ketogenic diet, when fats are used for fuel they are first converted to carbs and then used as fuel which is inefficient. So if the primary fuel is carbs, why not eat carbs?

Some suggest that the reason for weight retention during triathlon training (or other types of workouts) is potentially a complex issue but typically has something to do with not performing proper fueling for workouts and/or proper nutrition post workout to promote recovery.

Become more aerobically conditioned and you will burn more fat, thanks for increased mitochondrial biogenesis etc. etc.

Fat adaptation is different from metabolic flexibility.

Metabolic flexibility is what you are going for, not fat adaptation, you want to preserve the ability to burn carbs at higher intensities but increase the intensity up to which you burn fat.

Fat adaptation is trying to just burn more fat period.

The real ketogenic diet is a different thing, it requires remaining in ketosis ALWAYS, ketosis impairs ability to use carbs via enzyme changes at the mitochondria, but this is ok if you have ketones and amino acids floating about.

But having been on the ketogenic diet for 6 months and monitoring blood it’s hard to stay in. Steak for dinner? Ketosis gone!

You can help the metabolic flexibility process along by sometimes training low carb/fasted, you can also help it along by removing carbs where you don’t need them, i.e. outside of the training window.

But these interventions hold NOTHING to the impact of MORE AEROBIC TRAINING which will increase you ability to burn fat at all intensities.

Diet modification is about health and body composition. Efficiently utilizing fat for energy and delay of glycogen depletion is best obtained by hours of steady aerobic exercise. There are intensity short-cuts to muscular endurance, but efficient fat burning requires significant training volume.

typically has something to do with not performing proper fueling for workouts and/or proper nutrition post workout to promote recovery.

I recently saw a dietician who has done a lot of work with one of the local running groups and this was pretty much the feedback i got from that visit.

The key take away from the visit was:

At most I can absorb 60gms of Carbs an hour
During long workouts/races, i SHOULD be trying to hit this number
Before I start a workout I should make sure that my carb stores are topped up
After the workout I should be replenishing my carb stores (+ some protein to help rebuild)

In other words… spot on advice from you!!! (Thank you)

I spent about a year on low carb / very low carb diets… no bread, no pasta, no starchy vegetables (from potatoes to carrots).

The key piece of literature is: http://www.amazon.com/...ohydrate+performance

At a very high level, the book’s assertions are:
When running on glycogen you can only hold a very small amount of fuel
Your body has an almost unlimited amount of fat that can be converted to fuel (lipogenesis)
If your body is in this keto adapted mode, hydration (and electrolytes) are important but your fuel comes from fat

I went all in for about a year

Sadly for me, this did not improve performance (actually it hurt it)
I never got that the energy to go all day mode.
It did not help me lose weight
This was not a lifestyle that i could maintain long term
The weight that i lost came back incredibly fast (digesting carbs takes water, eliminate the carbs and you will temporarily dehydrate your digestive water stores… begin eating carbs and the weight returns)

Ultimately, the thing that had me abandon this is…if low carb/fat adaptation was as good as claimed… why isn’t everyone doing this?

(Currently i am on an everything in moderation diet and trying to hold a minor caloric deficit… which isn’t causing the weight to go as fast as i would hope either)

What I have read is that the human body basically runs on carbs - even when going to a fat adapted or ketogenic diet. When on a fat adapted diet or ketogenic diet, **when fats are used for fuel they are first converted to carbs and then used as fuel **which is inefficient. So if the primary fuel is carbs, why not eat carbs?

Some suggest that the reason for weight retention during triathlon training (or other types of workouts) is potentially a complex issue but typically has something to do with not performing proper fueling for workouts and/or proper nutrition post workout to promote recovery.

No, this is absolutely incorrect. The glycerol backbone of a triglyceride molecule can be used to create glucose under certain conditions, but the fatty acids cannot be converted to glucose. Fatty acids are oxidized to generate ATP. The human body runs on both fats and carbs.

typically has something to do with not performing proper fueling for workouts and/or proper nutrition post workout to promote recovery.

I recently saw a dietician who has done a lot of work with one of the local running groups and this was pretty much the feedback i got from that visit.

The key take away from the visit was:

At most I can absorb 60gms of Carbs an hour
During long workouts/races, i SHOULD be trying to hit this number
Before I start a workout I should make sure that my carb stores are topped up
After the workout I should be replenishing my carb stores (+ some protein to help rebuild)

In other words… spot on advice from you!!! (Thank you)

Where are you getting this 60gm carbs per hour, are you saying specifically for you or there is a study out there that saying this is the maximum absorbable to athletes, IE regardless of intensity/sport/duration/body weight, body composition.

I have assigned under 250 cal per hour once over the past 12 years (for IM bike, run is generally less)

Maurice