The fat adapted approach or not

Triathlon Forum
21

Where are you getting this 60gm carbs per hour

This was from a consult with the dietician, but doing a little research (which i should have done before accepting this as “fact”)

From Hammer Nutrition (http://www.hammernutrition.com/hnt/294/)
Intermittent small carbohydrate-rich meals including up to 100 grams 3-hours prior to a workout, 60-70 grams carbohydrate per hour during workouts, and 200-225 grams long-chain glucose polymers or other complex carbohydrates 30-120 minutes after workouts is recommended to restore liver glycogen and muscle glycogen at maximal levels.

I see similar numbers when googling: absorption rate of carbohydrate grams per hour

I believe that ~60gm/hr is the maximum you can absorb… I am a bigger guy (6’3" and 250#) so I was told to be at the upper end of the spectrum

During a race I will consume:
I get 21gm/hr from Skratch Labs hydration +80 calories
I get 30gm/hr from Perpetuem (4 scoops in a water bottle that i target to consume over 3 hours) + 150 calories
I eat something every hour Clif Bar, Honey Stinger Waffle, Banana, energy gel, etc (whatever is offered on course)

22

So to “dumb this down” a bit for me, if I am not doing massive hours of zone 2 type training AND also working at a LCHF diet, is the use of Ucan pointless?
Case Study:
Woke up around 6:30am. Went on bike around 8:30am. Had a scoop of Ucan at 8am. At 9am had another scoop of Ucan. I felt fine during ride but was starving afterwards…

I do feel I swing high and low with energy when training so trying to flatten that out a bit. I thought this was a good solution for that. Loosing some weight would not be bad either.

23

Last winter I had a metabolic efficiency test performed which shows accurately how many calories I burn per hour as well as which percentage of them are from carbs vs from fat. (I did mine with running)

Everyone’s numbers are a little different, but for me my sweet spot was smack in the middle of Zone 2

When my heart rate is at 141 BPM – 54%of the calories I am burning are from fat and 46% are from carbs (these are my running numbers… but we’ll pretend they are the same).

If we pretend that our metabolic efficiency and caloric burn level are similar

When you start out you have a reasonably full glycogen store when you start (~500 grams or 2000 kcal)

In that first hour you are going to burn ~600 kcal… this will be 320 calories of fat and 280 calories of carbs

This leaves you with about 1620 calories in your glycogen stores

After that first hour you take another scoop of Ucan ( I am assuming Ucan SuperStarch which has 20gms of carbs)

Over the next 10-30 minutes that 20gms of carbs will add 80gms to your glycogen stores.

In the second hour of the ride, you burn another 280 calories of carbs

At the completion of the ride your glycogen stores are at 1520 kcal
You have also burned 640 kcal of fat.

Once the ride is complete, your body is looking for fuel to replenish your glycogen stores and protein to repair and build muscle which triggers your hunger reflex.

As for whether that scoop of UCan is pointless…

It is helping prolong the duration of your energy stores, however for a 2 hour ride you aren’t going to bottom that out anyways.
The bigger question revolves around how much insulin is being released and how insulin resistant you may (or may not be)

Now for the **huge **disclaimer… I am a computer nerd that has done a lot of reading on this, i am not formally trained in nutrition
I firmly believe that everyone’s body is a bit of a science experiment and what works for one person may not work for everyone.
I am not trying to encourage you to change your diet… go with what you feel works for you.
When in doubt, talk to a dietician that works with sports medicine… they will, presumably, give much more scientifically sound advice than random internet stranger

24

Continuing along with this approach, I am wondering if in the off season/pre-season this would be a good approach to shift body comp, loose weight. Not sure if there are any negatives from switching away from this once the harder sessions are coming in with more regularity?

25

Probably better to enter pre-season a few lbs heavy. It will naturally come off during training and racing as the season gets started. Less stress on the body this way.

26

Unfortunately, weight does not come off me very easily. I am 5’9 and for both IM’s that I have done, I can’t seem to get below 186. I am currently 193. I think if I could get to lower 180’s I could see some nice results…and hills wont suck as much.

27

Probably better to enter pre-season a few lbs heavy. It will naturally come off during training and racing as the season gets started. Less stress on the body this way.

I do not agree.

The negative energy intake required for weight loss is stressful to the body.
The offseason / pre / beginning base season is a time of lower training stress, this is the best time to make changes.

During the Build and Race phases, we want the body to be running well, without additional stressors. These phases require appropriate caloric intake for recovery and adaptation. Weight should be maintained during this time.

28

Continuing along with this approach, I am wondering if in the off season/pre-season this would be a good approach to shift body comp, loose weight. Not sure if there are any negatives from switching away from this once the harder sessions are coming in with more regularity?

I think that the concept of fat adaptation is beyond the scope of what you’re looking for as it’s not a “weight loss tool”.

Just try some simple rules:

  1. Don’t be afraid to eat, take a moderate portion, if you’re still hungry 15 minutes after finishing, eat more.

  2. Consume nothing after 8pm… except popcorn (It takes a long time to eat, it’s pretty low calorie, it helps solve the “i’m eating because I’m bored, stressed” conundrum).

  3. Consume no food or drink with “Natural Flavors” (This has nothing to do with the actual “Natural Flavor”, it’s just the absolute easiest way to know if a packaged food is “processed” and gives a very clear delineation to saying “No”).

29

If it is at all possible, it might be a good idea to sit down with a dietician that works with endurance athletes

I didn’t have great results with an extremely low carb diet (n=1)

The trend of training low carb and racing high carb has become increasingly popular lately. While this seems like it would make sense, if you go without carbs for a period of time when you bring them back for a race they will seem like rocket fuel. But I think there are some problems with this…

First of all, when you are low carb you will not carry as much water weight (because you don’t need as much water to break down fat as you do to break down carbs)
So when you take that first gel, your body is going to need to start pulling water from somewhere to digest that carb

The bigger problem is that there isn’t a simple “burn carbs”/“burn fat” switch. It is a complex process largely related around insulin (if you are insulin resistant / metabolic syndrome) it is a process to change. This is the reason that you feel like crap the first few weeks on a low carb diet.

While I’ve moved away from the low carb diet… you might want to read http://burnfatnotsugar.com/ (This is/was my primary care doctor…he is a huge proponent of low carb)

I’ve read a fair bit about this, but i still have a lot of weight that i am trying to lose.

My plan for the next (well forever):

  1. Eat less processed foods…you should know what most of the ingredients on the label are
  2. Dramatically reduce the junk (I love soda, chips, and sweets… but i also know that they are not to be a mainstay of my diet)
  3. Plan meals (that 6:45PM hill ride after work is going to leave me starving… plan to have a healthy snack after so i don’t hit a drive throught)
  4. Eat the healthy fats (nuts, seeds, avocado, cage free eggs)
  5. Do most of my workouts in Zone 2 (you need oxygen to burn fat, if you are gasping for air you will burn less fat)
  6. Operate at a caloric deficit (I had a metabolic screening to know what my daily “just breathing and existing” caloric burn is…I wear a heart rate monitor for all of my workouts. I am trying to take in 1000 calories less than my metabolic level + daily exercise)
  7. Avoid the splurge (Hey, i hit 13.5 hours of training this week… i am going to eat , because i’ve *earned it)

If this doesn’t cause me to lose weight… well, perhaps i am a “special snowflake” and I’ll try the next thing

30

Some good replies from you and xtrpickels.

Just read that you are trying to hit a 1000 calorie deficit per day. I don’t know if you have any time limits, but I would probably try and make it more like 500 calories - that would be 3-4 pounds of fat loss per month.

I’m on the other end of the scale from you (a little over 6", weighed 143 punds three months ago). Had a DEXA scan that said 10.6% body fat (I’m a Cat 1/Continental cyclist). It told me I should be able to shed at least 4-5% or 6-7 punds of fat. I’ve more or less done that now being 138 pounds after aiming for a 200-300 calorie deficit per day for the last two and a half month or so. Some days just staying at zero deficit is hard, some days a 500 calorie deficit seems OK, but I would likely struggle a lot trying to hit a deficit of 1000 calories each day or just on average - I think it would leave more or less no room for things like nuts and avocados that might be healthy but are also very calorie-rich. In other words, I don’t think it’s sustainable, which is required if you want to lose more than a couple of pounds. At least that’s my experience, I don’t know how other people will react, of course.

Anyway, seeing as you describe yourself a computer nerd I would suggest trying to keep track of your calories (if you don’t already). Even better, make a spreadsheet (or try an app) and try and track both calories and carb, fat and protein intake. You will soon find out where your calories come from and what things have a lot of calories without really filling you up. I’ve had good experiences with rice protein shakes - with water and perhaps a bit of skimmed milk and 30g of rice protein you can make a nice 150 calorie shake that actually fills you up a bit (not hugely, but it’s also only 150 calories, so you can always take two!). I find them very good in the evening if you’re feeling hungry but are running out of calories for the day - plus there is talk about getting some protein just before bed time is good.

31

(a little over 6", weighed 143 punds three months ago)… It told me I should be able to shed at least 4-5% or 6-7 punds of fat.

Was this advice from the Bale’s dietician before he started filming on The Machinist?

Sarcasm aside, did your performance (e.g. watts/kg) improve much over this period? It seems very light. Even Froome is a decent amount heavier and he’s on the skinny end of the scale

32

typically has something to do with not performing proper fueling for workouts and/or proper nutrition post workout to promote recovery.

I recently saw a dietician who has done a lot of work with one of the local running groups and this was pretty much the feedback i got from that visit.

The key take away from the visit was:

At most I can absorb 60gms of Carbs an hour
During long workouts/races, i SHOULD be trying to hit this number
Before I start a workout I should make sure that my carb stores are topped up
After the workout I should be replenishing my carb stores (+ some protein to help rebuild)

In other words… spot on advice from you!!! (Thank you)

Just remembered this infographic from Yann LeMeur
He does great, easy to understand, summaries of research:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aD8pGl5w9pA/Vi_5CGBK53I/AAAAAAAABxk/B-ejyJCL_Cc/s1600/CHO%2BLiver%2BMuscle.png

33

(a little over 6", weighed 143 punds three months ago)… It told me I should be able to shed at least 4-5% or 6-7 punds of fat.

Was this advice from the Bale’s dietician before he started filming on The Machinist?

Sarcasm aside, did your performance (e.g. watts/kg) improve much over this period? It seems very light. Even Froome is a decent amount heavier and he’s on the skinny end of the scale

Who’s this fat machinist guy you mention?

My season ended over a month ago, so hard to tell exactly. But my power does not seem to have dropped any, so my W/kg is up. Will have to wait until next season to see if it translates into better results. I’m living in a very flat area (Denmark), though, so the impact will probably not be as big as if I was living somewhere with big climbs.

34

Cool. I’m curious to know how it works out. I accidentally did something similar last year. I’m 5’6 and last year I went down to 128lbs from about 135lbs. Although I could ride all day my 1-5 min power suffered a LOT and my threshold power didn’t move at all. Although this gained me a watt/kg gain I wasn’t able to increase the watts side of the equation. I was away training in a remote-ish area, so when I got back to NYC and went riding with friends I kept getting dropped because I didn’t have the power to hang with the group on the shorter harder hills.

Now I’m back putting on weight (at about 138lbs now), the top end power came back eventually, and threshold watts are going up although the kg is probably going up at a similar rate. I figure if I spend winters putting on cuddling weight and increasing watts I can spend the summer trimming down trying to hang onto the power. I don’t know enough to know if this is a great approach, but it means I can eat ice cream this winter which makes me happy.

35

Since this is the off-season I haven’t really done any of those shorter durations with maximal power. I did set a new peak power PR in one of the last races in the season, i.e. about a month into the diet. I didn’t notice any decrease in power in the last races in those shorter durations. Up to around 2-3 minutes my W/kg is on the low side (compared to my competition), so I think I will notice if it gets even worse - I hope not.

Did you make sure to get enough protein? I have actually increased my protein intake so I get 2-3 g/kg each day to try and make sure I don’t lose muscle mass.

36

been fully keto-adapted for the past year and a half with terrific results! lots weight, never really hungry, do not eat before even longest runs/rides

in the past two weeks run a 100K trail run (under 14hrs) on a handful of sunflower seeds and rode 500K on road bike (in 18hrs net) with about 3800m elevation gain on two cans of tuna in oil and two premium icecreams on a stick (and lots of baked chicken wings thereafter)

never going back to carbs

37

Become more aerobically conditioned and you will burn more fat, thanks for increased mitochondrial biogenesis etc. etc.

Fat adaptation is different from metabolic flexibility.

Metabolic flexibility is what you are going for, not fat adaptation, you want to preserve the ability to burn carbs at higher intensities but increase the intensity up to which you burn fat.

Fat adaptation is trying to just burn more fat period.

The real ketogenic diet is a different thing, it requires remaining in ketosis ALWAYS, ketosis impairs ability to use carbs via enzyme changes at the mitochondria, but this is ok if you have ketones and amino acids floating about.

But having been on the ketogenic diet for 6 months and monitoring blood it’s hard to stay in. Steak for dinner? Ketosis gone!

You can help the metabolic flexibility process along by sometimes training low carb/fasted, you can also help it along by removing carbs where you don’t need them, i.e. outside of the training window.

But these interventions hold NOTHING to the impact of MORE AEROBIC TRAINING which will increase you ability to burn fat at all intensities.

This. Become fitter and you will burn more fat at higher intensities and be able to go longer without carbohydrate supplementation.

Keep your normal diet but start doing workouts in a fasted state, and/or start to lengthen your workouts without taking in a carbohydrate.

My n=1 has been to restrict carbs or calories in training for over ten years. I remember “bonking” after a two hour ride when I started the sport if no calories were taken in. I now go 4+ hours with nothing but water because I feel like I have become fitter and better at using fat for fuel on those workouts. Adding in a normal 300 - 400 kcal/hour while racing is what I do, and those calories feel like a “superdrug” allowing me to go harder and longer.

38

Since this is the off-season I haven’t really done any of those shorter durations with maximal power. I did set a new peak power PR in one of the last races in the season, i.e. about a month into the diet. I didn’t notice any decrease in power in the last races in those shorter durations. Up to around 2-3 minutes my W/kg is on the low side (compared to my competition), so I think I will notice if it gets even worse - I hope not.

Did you make sure to get enough protein? I have actually increased my protein intake so I get 2-3 g/kg each day to try and make sure I don’t lose muscle mass.

I was getting loads of protein, mainly through fish, but believe my overall calorie intake was at a big deficit so was losing weight. I’m guessing I lost just as much muscle as I did fat. Haven’t been able to figure it all out yet.