Swimming kick sets

Triathlon Forum
1

I’ve been out of running for the past week with ITBS, so I’ve been putting more and more time in the pool attempting to find my rebuild my lost form and find my ‘inner fish’.

For some reason or another, I figured that if I wanted to become a fish, I needed to start swimming like a swimmer and not a tri-geek, and a major part of workouts that was missing was kick sets. So added 300 kick (with fins) to the end of the workout.

That 300 kick kicked my ass, but by the last 50, I started to figure it out and started getting better at it. I also noticed my legs were burning in the places that I seemed to be having weakness issues with while running, so I think this may help my running as well as my swimming.

So if I’m serious about building my kick, what are good sets to do? Is it better to do them in the beginning/middle/end of the workout?

2

I’m no fish, but I do believe I’ve had decent results using pool time (kick sets included) as PT / rehab for ITBS symptoms and for generally working muscles I never knew I had…

My amateur suggestion is to add variety to your kick set along with moving it to the middle of your workout (not at the very end) so you have more energy / better form. Instead of just the typical kicking on your stomach (w/a kickboard, I presume), mix it up and alternate front / back, dolphin kick, breast stroke… don’t forget some head-lead / hand-lead laps on each side. And for god’s sake don’t do all your kicking with fins (probably not even half). Once you add in the variety, its not difficult to put together a nice 800-1000 yd kickset. If you really want some variety and good core strengthening, also throw in some sets of egg-beater kick (in the deep end) where you kick 60s w/palms out of water, 60s elbows out of water (the elbows out will be tough!) Do it for 5min at first… work up to 10min or more. You may be surprising at how your posture / core feels more solid both cycling and running after a couple weeks of this.

Good luck.

3

Do it without the fins…

4

You should not be serious about your kick…

Open water swimmers do not kick, - or not much. You get next to zero forward propulsion from kicking. an overemphasis on kicking will serve to separate out and uncoordinate the timing of your overall stroke and slow you down.

Besides these factors, - moving around two big legs will serve to tire you out and faster. The biggest problem in triathlons is wasted energy on a trivial part of the race. In practice, triathletes go out way too fast, and expend too much energy at the beginning of the race and die on the vine by working the swim way too hard.

Swimming is an upper body intensive sport. You’d be better served by spending that time in the weight room doing lat pulls and bench presses. The swim stroke is all about a coordinated upper body application of strength and force. Real swimmers, and really fast swimmers, use pull buoys and hand paddles when they want to tear apart their stroke and look at stroke timing issues.

What’s the biggest way to improve Tri swimming, - swim for an hour straight without stopping, - you are likely to see yourself logging more and more and more distance in that amount of time.

The best prep that you can give yourself for the swim part of a triathlon is to be able to REST while swimming and saving your energy for those parts of the race that matter. Having a relaxed recovery and knowing how to rest, is a far more important bit of experience to develop than a strong kick that provides next to no propulsion, and mostly servers as timing mechanism to help you breathe.

5

Not just a kick drill, but it adds reach and pull. The Scooter Swim Drill posted by the late, revered Doug Stern:

Place one hand on the middle of the middle of your kickboard. Keep your face out of the water and look STRAIGHT ahead (do not move your head). Place your free arm next to the board and push off the wall. Initiate your kick by thinking up, up, up. Point your toes all the time. Keep your kick going. Pull the free arm back by flexing your wrist and driving the elbow forward. Your elbow will stay near the surface of the water. As you pull that arm back push the kickboard forward with the hand on the middle of the board. Your opposite hip will open as you glide forward. Your free hand will reenter the water at the near end (end closest to you) of the kickboard. Let it glide forward and repeat the pull. At the end of the length switch arms and repeat with the other arm.

It’s helped me immensely and might be good just to add variety to you kick sets.

6

30 seconds vertical in deep end with 30s rest. hands on top of head. to increase difficulty raise your body more out of the water.

derek

7

You get next to zero forward propulsion from kicking. an overemphasis on kicking will serve to separate out and uncoordinate the timing of your overall stroke and slow you down.

hah no

You’d be better served by spending that time in the weight room doing lat pulls and bench presses

nope, learning a proper kick timing is more important than weights.

Real swimmers, and really fast swimmers, use pull buoys and hand paddles when they want to tear apart their stroke and look at stroke timing issues

again, no.

What’s the biggest way to improve Tri swimming, - swim for an hour straight without stopping

probably the worst advice you wrote. don’t do this unless youre in the 18-24 age group.

8

I respectfully disagree with the propulsion from kicking. I can kick 10X100 scy on 2 min fairly easily. The fast kickers on my team are faster yet so there can be quite a bit of propulsion from kicking.

I do agree that kicking will tire you out faster.

I don’t agree with swimming straight for an hour, I suppose that is a matter of opinion though.

I really feel that proper kicking keeps me straighter in the water and helps me time my stroke better.

jaretj

9

Yes,

Yes,

Yes,

and finally yes…

ciao…

10

You should not be serious about your kick…

Open water swimmers do not kick, - or not much. You get next to zero forward propulsion from kicking. an overemphasis on kicking will serve to separate out and uncoordinate the timing of your overall stroke and slow you down.

Besides these factors, - moving around two big legs will serve to tire you out and faster. The biggest problem in triathlons is wasted energy on a trivial part of the race. In practice, triathletes go out way too fast, and expend too much energy at the beginning of the race and die on the vine by working the swim way too hard.

Swimming is an upper body intensive sport. You’d be better served by spending that time in the weight room doing lat pulls and bench presses. The swim stroke is all about a coordinated upper body application of strength and force. Real swimmers, and really fast swimmers, use pull buoys and hand paddles when they want to tear apart their stroke and look at stroke timing issues.

What’s the biggest way to improve Tri swimming, - swim for an hour straight without stopping, - you are likely to see yourself logging more and more and more distance in that amount of time.

The best prep that you can give yourself for the swim part of a triathlon is to be able to REST while swimming and saving your energy for those parts of the race that matter. Having a relaxed recovery and knowing how to rest, is a far more important bit of experience to develop than a strong kick that provides next to no propulsion, and mostly servers as timing mechanism to help you breathe.

Ignore most of this post.

In a tri you don’t want to kick a lot because you’ll use your legs soon enough. But you can gain a lot of propulsion from kicking. I can kick 100’s faster than a lot of triathletes in my gym can swim. But a light kick in tri can help you maintain an even stroke and keep your hips up.

Swimming an hour straight is not a good way to get better. Work on your form first. If that is good make sure every workout has a purpose. Do sets for a reason. Rest intervals, swim intervals, even off strokes. They can all help build swim speed and proper form if done properly. Swimming long slow yards over and over is almost useless.

Personally I don’t need to kick much because I have a strong kick. But I have found that kicking helps a LOT with recovery and injury prevention. It really gets the bloodflow in the legs moving. No matter how sore I am getting in the water…my legs feel better with some kicking sets. I always have it in my w/u and w/d.

11

I respectfully disagree with the propulsion from kicking. I can kick 10X100 scy on 2 min fairly easily. The fast kickers on my team are faster yet so there can be quite a bit of propulsion from kicking.

Because you can kick at a certain, slow comparitively, time for a 100 yards does not mean that you gain propulsion relative to pulling. Again, - some people can actually swim faster with a pull buoy, - this means that 1. There stroke timing is off a bit. And, 2. (and most importantly), - that the upper is dramatically more active in the propulsive phase than the kick.

I really feel that proper kicking keeps me straighter in the water and helps me time my stroke better

12

For triathletes, kick sets are mostly about strengthening the core and improving run endurance. Very valuable for me, but to each his own…

13

I respectfully disagree with the propulsion from kicking. I can kick 10X100 scy on 2 min fairly easily. The fast kickers on my team are faster yet so there can be quite a bit of propulsion from kicking.

Because you can kick at a certain, slow comparitively, time for a 100 yards does not mean that you gain propulsion relative to pulling. Again, - some people can actually swim faster with a pull buoy, - this means that 1. There stroke timing is off a bit. And, 2. (and most importantly), - that the upper is dramatically more active in the propulsive phase than the kick.

I really feel that proper kicking keeps me straighter in the water and helps me time my stroke better

The only reason some people swim faster with a pull bouy is because they drag their hips/legs without it…and don’t kick w/out it anyway. To them it’s a crutch so they don’t have to try. No swimmer worth anything swims faster with a bouy while putting in actual effort to kick.

Why do you think they have rules stopping swimmers from underwater kicking the entire race for shorter events? They do it because someone like Phelps wouldn’t bother with breathing or taking a single stroke. Was it Michael Stewart in the 80’s that started the whole issue by dolphin kicking 75 of 100 meters at the olympics and setting a world record? I can’t remember for sure.

However I digress when it comes to tris. Focus on your stroke before you work on kicking. Kicking in a tri is just not that necessary…it’s not like you’re doing a 100 yard sprint. You still have to bike and run. I will also add that as the event gets longer…kicking becomes less useful. Big ole thighs take a lot of oxygen away from your upper body which needs it more. In a tri you should concentrate on your stroke more than your kick. The wetsuit will help you not drag your hips.

14

some people can actually swim faster with a pull buoy, - this means that 1. There stroke timing is off a bit. And, 2. (and most importantly), - that the upper is dramatically more active in the propulsive phase than the kick.\

You left off the biggest reason pulling with a buoy is faster, becasue it floats your rear end higher in the water, much like a setsuit would.

I agree and disagree with your hour swim theory. If it is in open water, then a great idea. You need to expirence and develope skills to swim without the rest of turns in the pool. Doing it in the pool is pointless…

And once again I agree and disagree with your kicking theory. In wetsuit swims, it is not important to have that skill, however in non wetsuit swims it is very important. Overall kicking is good for leg recovery as someone else mentioned, and in non wetsuit swims, it can not only speed you up, but promote proper body position.

Kicking sets are not a waste of time in any case, unless you are someone that only gets 2 hours a week in the water. Then maybe 5% of your yards should be kicking. I like to do about 20% usuallty, but I train for non wetsuit swims, and like my pool times to improve…

15

You should not be serious about your kick…

Open water swimmers do not kick, - or not much. You get next to zero forward propulsion from kicking. an overemphasis on kicking will serve to separate out and uncoordinate the timing of your overall stroke and slow you down.

Besides these factors, - moving around two big legs will serve to tire you out and faster. The biggest problem in triathlons is wasted energy on a trivial part of the race. In practice, triathletes go out way too fast, and expend too much energy at the beginning of the race and die on the vine by working the swim way too hard.

Swimming is an upper body intensive sport. You’d be better served by spending that time in the weight room doing lat pulls and bench presses. The swim stroke is all about a coordinated upper body application of strength and force. Real swimmers, and really fast swimmers, use pull buoys and hand paddles when they want to tear apart their stroke and look at stroke timing issues.

What’s the biggest way to improve Tri swimming, - swim for an hour straight without stopping, - you are likely to see yourself logging more and more and more distance in that amount of time.

The best prep that you can give yourself for the swim part of a triathlon is to be able to REST while swimming and saving your energy for those parts of the race that matter. Having a relaxed recovery and knowing how to rest, is a far more important bit of experience to develop than a strong kick that provides next to no propulsion, and mostly servers as timing mechanism to help you breathe.

As others have mentioned, these comments are completely OFF base, and all I can imagine is that they are in your AG and want to beat you.

The kick is THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of the stroke and provides the basis for speed and body position. It’s akin to riding your bike without holding the handlebars, versus with.

to JReed: It was Mel Stewart…

to TOENAIL: I’ll race you: you - no kick, no pull-bouy, and you can choose the distance; me - any kick I choose, local to me.

16

You should not be serious about your kick…

Open water swimmers do not kick, - or not much. You get next to zero forward propulsion from kicking. an overemphasis on kicking will serve to separate out and uncoordinate the timing of your overall stroke and slow you down.

Besides these factors, - moving around two big legs will serve to tire you out and faster. The biggest problem in triathlons is wasted energy on a trivial part of the race. In practice, triathletes go out way too fast, and expend too much energy at the beginning of the race and die on the vine by working the swim way too hard.

Swimming is an upper body intensive sport. You’d be better served by spending that time in the weight room doing lat pulls and bench presses. The swim stroke is all about a coordinated upper body application of strength and force. Real swimmers, and really fast swimmers, use pull buoys and hand paddles when they want to tear apart their stroke and look at stroke timing issues.

What’s the biggest way to improve Tri swimming, - swim for an hour straight without stopping, - you are likely to see yourself logging more and more and more distance in that amount of time.

The best prep that you can give yourself for the swim part of a triathlon is to be able to REST while swimming and saving your energy for those parts of the race that matter. Having a relaxed recovery and knowing how to rest, is a far more important bit of experience to develop than a strong kick that provides next to no propulsion, and mostly servers as timing mechanism to help you breathe.

As others have mentioned, these comments are completely OFF base, and all I can imagine is that they are in your AG and want to beat you.

The kick is THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of the stroke and provides the basis for speed and body position. It’s akin to riding your bike without holding the handlebars, versus with.

to JReed: It was Mel Stewart…

to TOENAIL: I’ll race you: you - no kick, no pull-bouy, and you can choose the distance; me - any kick I choose, local to me.

THANK YOU!!! I was getting ready to do a google search.
He was all the talk…and everyone wanted to see if he would go into oxygen debt and pass out on the deck.

17

Thanks for the drill ideas. I’m not sure I can visualize that scooter drill…maybe I just need to reread it a few more times.

I should clarify a point here…I’m not adding kicking to help my triathlon swimming. I’m adding it in to help my swimming swimming, and to help rehab my legs.

I just got back from the pool and did a 600 yrd kick set as part of my workout. 6x100, alternating flutter, dolphin and whip kick. All I can say is that my dolphin kick is so pathetic, I’m surprised the guard didn’t ask if I needed help.

Instead of working the kick sets into my normal swim, I’m thinking about splitting it up and doing a kick only workout. I’ll wake up early and do a 1000 yrd kick set in the mornings, then my usual swim workout at lunch. Does that sound like a good idea?

18

kick sets are a good thing. They build overall fitness, leg strength and core strength (particularly dolphin/butterfly kick) and leg/hip flexibility (breaststroke kick).

I do some kicking every workout…usually 200-300 yards. Usually at the beginning of a workout.

One thing that is good to do for technique and balance is a freestyle kick on your side with one arm (the lower one) extended.

19

You should not be serious about your kick…

Open water swimmers do not kick, - or not much. You get next to zero forward propulsion from kicking. an overemphasis on kicking will serve to separate out and uncoordinate the timing of your overall stroke and slow you down.

Besides these factors, - moving around two big legs will serve to tire you out and faster. The biggest problem in triathlons is wasted energy on a trivial part of the race. In practice, triathletes go out way too fast, and expend too much energy at the beginning of the race and die on the vine by working the swim way too hard.

Swimming is an upper body intensive sport. You’d be better served by spending that time in the weight room doing lat pulls and bench presses. The swim stroke is all about a coordinated upper body application of strength and force. Real swimmers, and really fast swimmers, use pull buoys and hand paddles when they want to tear apart their stroke and look at stroke timing issues.

What’s the biggest way to improve Tri swimming, - swim for an hour straight without stopping, - you are likely to see yourself logging more and more and more distance in that amount of time.

The best prep that you can give yourself for the swim part of a triathlon is to be able to REST while swimming and saving your energy for those parts of the race that matter. Having a relaxed recovery and knowing how to rest, is a far more important bit of experience to develop than a strong kick that provides next to no propulsion, and mostly servers as timing mechanism to help you breathe.

did you mean to put some of this in red font?

when you swim you want to engage your back muscles as much as possible…back is bigger than arms.
better rotation will allow you to use your back muscles more efficiently, and better roation equals a more streamlined position
an appropriate kick, usually a 2 beat kick, for distance swimming will allow you to rotate your body and use your back to pull.
you can either use your arms and back (in that order) to begin rotating and your pull, or your legs, back and arms ( in that order) to begin your pull.
the combination of your legs and back and arms is much more efficient than your arms and back.

20

The importance of the kick in distance swimming is less about propulsion and more about maintaining a constant speed through the recovery before the next arm reaches full pulling force. By timing the kick properly, a swimmer can maintain an almost constant speed even though the propulsive force applied by the arms is not constant through time. Without a properly-timed kick, the swimmer will slow down in the water in the weak part of his stroke and his next pull will have to bring him back up to speed. The kick is so important because water density is so high and it is very difficult to maintain a constant propulsive force with the arms alone.

The other importance to performing kick sets is to build leg endurance and power. In 2007-2008 I did very little cycling (maybe 1000 miles total) but lots of swimming with kick sets and endurance running. In my last triathlon of the year, my bike split was 32nd fastest out of over 600 men in the race. I believe that the kick sets were a big part of that. I don’t just do freestyle kicking but also lots of backstroke, fly, and breaststroke kick sets as well. YMMV. Good luck!