Then why is it that many, many, swimmers to 90% of their best time when swimming with a pull buoy?
Front crawl beater kick has almost no resemblence to butterfly, breast stroke kick, - or upside down butterfly kick as in those other strokes, they have a much higher percentage of propulsion gains.
However I digress when it comes to tris. Focus on your stroke before you work on kicking. Kicking in a tri is just not that necessary…it’s not like you’re doing a 100 yard sprint. You still have to bike and run. I will also add that as the event gets longer…kicking becomes less useful. Big ole thighs take a lot of oxygen away from your upper body which needs it more. In a tri you should concentrate on your stroke more than your kick. The wetsuit will help you not drag your hips.
Agree with that totally…as well as keeping your head down, - head down = hips up.
Quoted "Again, - some people can actually swim faster with a pull buoy, - this means that 1. There stroke timing is off a bit. And, 2. (and most importantly), - that the upper is dramatically more active in the propulsive phase than the kick.
While what you said is true, it could also mean that:
- their body position is better with a pull buoy and/or
- their kick is slowing them down
I can kick a 100 in 1:40, that’s faster than a lot of people can swim. I do agree that it’s not an efficient use of my energy, but to say there there is zero propulsion from kicking is simply not true.
jaretj
Then why is it that many, many, swimmers to 90% of their best time when swimming with a pull buoy?
I don’t see the best swimmers at my pool swimming 90% of the time with a pull buoy. I do see a lot of try-athletes swimming 1:45 100s over and over and over with a pull buoy between their legs. I do see good swimmers using a pull buoy in their pull sets and with hand paddles, but that is only part of the workout, not the whole thing.
It is absolutely true that your wetsuit keeps your legs to the surface much like a pull buoy. However, the belief that this means you don’t need to kick when wearing a wetsuit shows that people don’t understand that the kick isn’t about keeping your legs at the surface; in distance swimming, kicking is there to keep you from slowing down during the weak part of your pull. It also provides a little bit of extra propulsion. It is very true that in a triathlon you may not kick with a lot of force unless you are trying to get to the front or do a pass in the water. However, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t work on your kick.
Here’s a pretty good triathlete named Dave Scott talking about kicking drills for triathletes.
As others have mentioned, these comments are completely OFF base, and all I can imagine is that they are in your AG and want to beat you.
The kick is THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of the stroke and provides the basis for speed and body position. It’s akin to riding your bike without holding the handlebars, versus with.
to JReed: It was Mel Stewart…
to TOENAIL: I’ll race you: you - no kick, no pull-bouy, and you can choose the distance; me - any kick I choose, local to me.
I hate to be one of “those guys” but the name you’re looking for is Dave Berkoff. He set the American record in the 100yd back by doing it all essentially underwater. I trained with Mel at Tennessee and while he was an amazing kicker and did a lot of underwater work in practice, he did very little in races. I would also add that one could argue that Jessie Vassallo was the first to take underwater kicking seriously in the early-80’s…
That’s pretty funny,…
Although I’m a bit rusty currently, - I won the 500 yard freestyle at USMS Nationals in 31-35 age group a few years ago. Two years ago, I went 18:20 at the Olympic Club invitational 1500, negative splitting by 500. (Cycling has helped me swimming).
The kick is THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of the stroke and provides the basis for speed and body position. It’s akin to riding your bike without holding the handlebars, versus with.
I can’t possibly describe how off that statement was. The kick IS important, - just not for propulsion in the front crawl. The kick facilitates body position, timing, and breathing, plus the compensatory roll. And, I can demonstrate it, - a pull buoy is a simple test to demonstrate it.
As I mentioned, if someone swims nearly as fast with a pull buoy, - then their STROKE IS MESSED UP. However, - it is an indicator of how much more important upper body and torso strength and timing, and streamline position are than the kick. As others have mentioned, - in a race, - swimming with grace, balance, timing, and especially REST is critical.
Why waste energy on a trivial aspect of a trivial component of the event?
My argument is not that the kick is not important, - my argument is that the KICK is important: - but not as propulsion, - but overall coordination, the facilitation of breathing, and overall balance of the stroke. THE GOAL in triathlon is to balance going fast with expending the least amount of energy. I would rather the swim take up to an hour and go 15 minutes slower in the swim, if the conserved energy saves me an hour on the bike or on the run. Races are won and lost on the run or the bike.
Hello,
Please read my post more carefully.
I don’t see the best swimmers at my pool swimming 90% of the time with a pull buoy. I do see a lot of try-athletes swimming 1:45 100s over and over and over with a pull buoy between their legs. I do see good swimmers using a pull buoy in their pull sets and with hand paddles, but that is only part of the workout, not the whole thing.
That is true, - but it has absolutely NOTHING to do what I said about pull buoys.
However, the belief that this means you don’t need to kick when wearing a wetsuit shows that people don’t understand that the kick isn’t about keeping your legs at the surface; in distance swimming, kicking is there to keep you from slowing down during the weak part of your pull.
I disagree, - there is no weak part of the pull, (in theory). There COULD be a pause when you “catch” with one of your hands. Or, - when you breathe. Either way, or no way, the kick is IMPORTANT to help maintain body position, streamline position, overall stroke coordination and facilitate smooth breathing and compensatory roll from that breathing.
I would agree with your last statement.
jaretj
Although I’m a bit rusty currently, - I won the 500 yard freestyle at USMS Nationals in 31-35 age group a few years ago. Two years ago, I went 18:20 at the Olympic Club invitational 1500, negative splitting by 500. (Cycling has helped me swimming).
Impressive, but I believe Sho’s resume is even more so…
I disagree, - there is no weak part of the pull, (in theory). There COULD be a pause when you “catch” with one of your hands. Or, - when you breathe. Either way, or no way, the kick is IMPORTANT to help maintain body position, streamline position, overall stroke coordination and facilitate smooth breathing and compensatory roll from that breathing.
Okay, I see your point. I think maybe we just have some different terms for what is essentially the same thing. “Weak part” of the pull is a bad way to say it, what I mean is that propulsive force from the arms isn’t constant through time (at least for most of us). The pull is most powerful once the elbow reaches 90 degrees and is less powerful until that point. A well-timed kick adds a little extra propulsion during the less powerful part of the pull, helping to maintain a more constant speed. And I totally agree about helping to maintain body position and streamlining.
can we get back on topic now?
I wanted to know HOW to improve my kick…not if I should or should not. Honestly right now I don’t care about triathlon swimming. I am swimming to become an all around better swimmer and not a ‘fast enough for triathlon’ swimmer.
So…
How many yards a week should I be targeting? I have enough time that I’m not sacrificing any other training time. I was thinking of a 1000 yard kick workout in the mornings, then my typical swim workout in the afternoon. That would be 5k of kicking and (right now…slowly climbing) 15k swimming per week.
Apologies,
You are correct, and I agree with most everything that you say…
I was being a bit dramatic,… (I did not mean zero propulsion; but minimal propulsion).
That being said; I still do stand by the fact that in distance swimming, and front crawl for distance swimmers, - less than 10% of your propulsion comes from the kick; unless you’re not using your arms, and/or killing yourself dead tired by over kicking.
I can kick a 100 in 1:40, that’s faster than a lot of people can swim.
That is seriously impressive. But because you’re a really fast kicker over a short distance in a pool, - does not equate to the critical aspects of distance racing, - where REST and stroke efficiency are critical.
The whole point of my somewhat over-dramatized comments is balance, and how overemphasizing, or picking apart different components of things can cause people to go down the wrong path. Swimming is about timing, balance, streamline, and focused application of effort with ones arms and upper body; and yes, - the kick too. But, the kick’s main job is to achieve a gestalt working in conjunction with one’s whole body to maintain timing, streamline position, and breathing. The power phase of the swim stroke has to eminate from the upper body, hands and arms, with the kick working in a supporting role, - not the primary propulsive one. Even though it is very possible that one can propel themselves with the kick, - but compared to swimming (with both arms and legs), - it is much less propulsive.
As fast as you are at kicking, you are still dramatically slower than if you were swimming. If you can kick 100 yard repeats at 1:45, then you probably have no trouble doing a bunch of 100 yard repeats swimming under a minute. If you can’t, then your stroke or your upper body strength is off…
can we get back on topic now?
I wanted to know HOW to improve my kick…not if I should or should not. Honestly right now I don’t care about triathlon swimming. I am swimming to become an all around better swimmer and not a ‘fast enough for triathlon’ swimmer.
So…
How many yards a week should I be targeting? I have enough time that I’m not sacrificing any other training time. I was thinking of a 1000 yard kick workout in the mornings, then my typical swim workout in the afternoon. That would be 5k of kicking and (right now…slowly climbing) 15k swimming per week.
I can totally relate. It took me a long time to be able to have an acceptable kick. I started doing master’s swimming in 2007 and it wasn’t until over a year later that I felt my kick really click to the point where I was able to keep up with the others in class during kick sets. During this time I was swimming 3-4 times a week and kicking 300-500 yards each time. It was really frustrating because EVERYONE would pass me during kick sets.
One thing that really helped me was watching the Olympics in 2008 on our big HD TV. You could really see what the swimmer’s feet were doing. I remember that the next day I went to the pool and my kick sets were faster and it felt much easier. Since then I am able to keep up with the other swimmers during kick sets. But by this time I had many thousands of yards of kicking in my legs so maybe it was easier for the brain to add this information.
Bottom line is that it may take a while and there is no magic bullet. For me it was lots and lots of crappy slow kicksets for months and months on end followed by an “aha” moment.
I have 3 kick sets that can help you and breaks up the monotony of kicking with a board, do a 6 kick and roll-kick 6 times on your right performa catchup and then 6 kicks on your left I usually do 200 with fins and 200 without, 3-3-3 three strokes breath left while breathing do 3 kicks rotate with three strokes and breath on the right with 3 kicks while breathing repeat, I also do 200 with fins and paddles and 200 with just paddles, catch up drill with fins and paddles, and cath up with just paddles, then I do 600 kick with the board 300 with fins and 300 without. You will definitely feel it and it helps develop proper roll and breathing. Hope this helps.
In light of that…
I apologize.
Sorry for jumping on the kick soapbox!! 
But, my answer to your question is zero time. As it’s my contention that if you want to be an overall better swimmer, (like you said), separating out the kick from the rest of the stroke is a bad thing. Unless you’re sure that your stroke is so efficient, and/or that when you kick, - you are incredibly slow. I have seen some people kick and go backwards. That would be one instance where I would have folks work on their kick independent from swimming, and/or stroke timing.
I didn’t mean to disrespect you or your question, - but answer it with my best opinion, based on my experiences.
I’ve been unable to run for about 3 weeks (okay I was…I can now! I am running with a stupid grin on my face!) so I’ve been adding things to help keep the leggies moving. I’ve done a lot more bike time and since I am a fishie and have been my whole life, a lot more pool time because I like it (yes, I like swimming!)
I always do a kick set…every workout… closer to a race, easier, etc. Minimal kicking for me is about 400 yards. I’ve done kick sets that are 1000+. I was fortunate enough to have great coaches growing up and I’ve pulled some of my old workouts and gotten some from my friends who swam in college. Kick is super important. Especially since you are replacing running.
I kick less in a triathlon because I’m going to be using my legs for 2 more parts of the race. But I kick in practice hard b/c it increases your level of fitness! Just like someone said, moving big ole quads around is tough.
Do kick sets…but also make sure that your pull and the rest of your form is in good shape. That way you’re getting the extra benefit of kicking, but you’re still improving on the part of the swim you use most during triathlons.
As a side note… traditional up/down kicking isn’t as forwardly propulsive as somewhat “toed in” kicking…watch some good underwater videos and notice the direction the toes are pointed.
That’s pretty funny,…
Although I’m a bit rusty currently, - I won the 500 yard freestyle at USMS Nationals in 31-35 age group a few years ago. Two years ago, I went 18:20 at the Olympic Club invitational 1500, negative splitting by 500. (Cycling has helped me swimming).
So, is that a “no” you don’t want to race?
I’ve been giving this some thought. A great way to improve your kick is two fold: increase ankle flexibility; and by mixing up the kick in practise - I would suggest a non-stop 500 kick with every third 25 fast, maintaining even pace on the non-fast portions.
These two items will generate speed, strength, flexibility and endurance.
Good luck
Some interesting responses to your question… but aside from issues related to propulsion, a set I like is mixed swim/kick:
6x200’s, alternating swim/fly-kick on back/flutter kick. On the flutter interval, pay close attention to body rotation, use a 6-beat kick as you’ll probably take forever doing kick set w/2 beat. This helps reinforce body roll for the subsequent free interval where you’ll be swimming. Try to do the fly on back interval using your whole body, like a quick “quiver” that starts with the arms and propagates towards feet, rather than a large slow leg-centric kick. repeat. Oh, and NO kickboard and no fins.
edit: if you do the fly-on-back right, your abs will be on fire; you might have to work up to 200’s
What’s the biggest way to improve Tri swimming, - swim for an hour straight without stopping, - you are likely to see yourself logging more and more and more distance in that amount of time.
In case no one corrected this yet, I’ll do it for you.
The best way to improve tri swimming is to do vo2 max and threshold sets.