learned this from a friend: 10x1 mile with every next mile going off at 6:30. So if you run a 6 min mile you get 30 seconds rest, if you run 6:15 you get 15 seconds rest.
Basically it mixes a tempo with a speed workout. If you can do this a 3-4 weeks out you should be pretty good.
Adding in a mid week 12-14 miler made a huge difference. When I broke 3hrs I was running around 70mpw.
Your goal in training for a successful marathon is two-fold:
I used a pesonally modified version of Phtz’s book (I removed the track workouts). I averaged 70mpw for the 10 weeks leading up to my taper. I focused on doing the following:
The key benchmarks for me were my races leading up to the marathon (NYC in early November 2:57). I ran two 10k’s in September and one half marathon and one 10 miler in October. All of my races were close to the corresponding Macmillian times for my marathon.
Be able to run your last 20 miler easily in the 7:15 - 7:30 range feeling better as the run goes on 3 weeks out.
Be able to knock out your 12 - 15 milers in the middle of the week and still have a mid-week tempo session where you are comfortably hitting 6:30-ish for your tempo pace.
Granted, I’ve never run a sub-3 marathon, I’ve never even came close. But then, I’ve only run 1 open marathon and it was at the very beginning of my running career. I know the mpw quotes in this thread are all reasonably typical, but they are still seem* *mindbogglingly high to me.
I was running somewhat near (but not at) the paces described in this thread during my last IM build. My mid-week tempo could be 10+mi at 6:50 if I pushed it, granted yes that’s a pretty big difference from 6:30. My 20miler’s were pretty comfortably in the 7:30 range and my IM run split was honestly pretty comfortable to come in right around 3:30.
That was at 30-35mpw. I’m definitely not saying I’m anywhere close to being able to run a sub-3 open, but doubling the running mileage still seems like a huge stretch to me. I’ll have to take your guys word for it.
The point of marathon training is to build your endurance up so that you can run marathon close to your LT pace (90-95%). That only comes with mileage.
Be able to run your last 20 miler easily in the 7:15 - 7:30 range feeling better as the run goes on 3 weeks out.
Be able to knock out your 12 - 15 milers in the middle of the week and still have a mid-week tempo session where you are comfortably hitting 6:30-ish for your tempo pace.
Granted, I’ve never run a sub-3 marathon, I’ve never even came close. But then, I’ve only run 1 open marathon and it was at the very beginning of my running career. I know the mpw quotes in this thread are all reasonably typical, but they are still seem* *mindbogglingly high to me.
I was running somewhat near (but not at) the paces described in this thread during my last IM build. My mid-week tempo could be 10+mi at 6:50 if I pushed it, granted yes that’s a pretty big difference from 6:30. My 20miler’s were pretty comfortably in the 7:30 range and my IM run split was honestly pretty comfortable to come in right around 3:30.
That was at 30-35mpw. I’m definitely not saying I’m anywhere close to being able to run a sub-3 open, but doubling the running mileage still seems like a huge stretch to me. I’ll have to take your guys word for it.
You were also riding and swimming which does build your abilities and allowed you to come off the bike in shape to be able to run.
My mid-week semi-long runs were in the 14 - 15 range. My daily average run was around 8. Even my “recovery” runs were in the 5 - 6 range and usually came on double days. When you are wiped doing a 15 miler on a Wednesday and then have a 7 mile tempo run at 6:25 pace on Thursday morning (and still feel good doing it) then you will understand the need for higher mileage. My peak week I was putting in over 10 hours … just running. My peak IM weeks were around 16 hours and that included a 5+ hour long weekend bike ride.
Run training and tri-run training are two different animals that just happen to look sort of the same on the surface.
Edit: You probably have the ability to run sub-3 with the right training with a 3:30 IM split. 
Be able to run your last 20 miler easily in the 7:15 - 7:30 range feeling better as the run goes on 3 weeks out.
Be able to knock out your 12 - 15 milers in the middle of the week and still have a mid-week tempo session where you are comfortably hitting 6:30-ish for your tempo pace.
Granted, I’ve never run a sub-3 marathon, I’ve never even came close. But then, I’ve only run 1 open marathon and it was at the very beginning of my running career. I know the mpw quotes in this thread are all reasonably typical, but they are still seem* *mindbogglingly high to me.
I was running somewhat near (but not at) the paces described in this thread during my last IM build. My mid-week tempo could be 10+mi at 6:50 if I pushed it, granted yes that’s a pretty big difference from 6:30. My 20miler’s were pretty comfortably in the 7:30 range and my IM run split was honestly pretty comfortable to come in right around 3:30.
That was at 30-35mpw. I’m definitely not saying I’m anywhere close to being able to run a sub-3 open, but doubling the running mileage still seems like a huge stretch to me. I’ll have to take your guys word for it.
It seems imposing coming from tri, but a dedicated run focus means a lot of free time run. If you are used to only training 10hrs per week and build to that running for a 3hr marathon, you’ll be 70-80 mpw.
Look at it this way, a 2.5hr run leaves you with 7.5hrs over 6 days.
If you have a mid-long run like Pfitz likes, that’s another 1.5 hrs off.
That leaves you with 5 hrs over 5 days. Break these up with short (30’) double days or an easy hour.
I personally had an hour of track stuff one day or another tempo, 90’ day every week and everything else was easy-8s.
The important thing is to keep it easy enough that you can hit the fast days on pace.
No bike/swim really frees up your time to run.
–edit–
I did B2B just before my sub-3 with an easy 3:37 maybe? 3:3x, I know. I was in no real hurry to finish after a terrible day being a twat on the bike and walked most of the last mile eating pretzels and visiting with a 1st looper. I would say a 3:30 on a flat course puts you comfortably at a sub-3 stand alone.
I might be missing the point slightly and not really addressing the essence of your question (which is really i think how to get faster - period)…but which marathon did you set your existing PR at ? Is it considered a hard course ? An easy course v a difficult course (within the bounds of reasonableness) is good for ~10 minutes. Just a thought. And couple that with all the good advice you have already received you should be home and dry. (FWIW - i am running London, cool and flat next April specificially to try to break 2:49:49 - never going to happen at NYC.)
Agreed. My existing PR was at the NJ Marathon, which is flat and the weather was favorable (low 60s). My goal race is also flat (bar two early bridges), and not many turns. Weather conditions could be anywhere from high 50s to low 80s, but most typically high 60s/low 70s. So the course challenges will be the bridges and possible warmer weather. Hence the plan is to train for 2:55 and hope that gives me enough of a cushion to still break 3 if conditions are a bit harder.
Appreciate the responses. Definitely trust you guys that it’s a different animal than tri training. The topic interests me because my big races are over for the season and I’m mulling a fall marathon rather than just sitting around and getting fat.
The mpw sounds off putting to my current level of motivation, but then again, while I’d like to do ‘well’, I also certainly wouldn’t have to go sub-3 to be happy.
good for you. wanting to be a faster runner pure and simple is the way to go at your goal. you will get immense satisfaction from acheiving it. I was just mildly curious if a little ‘help’ from the course was possible/probable. good luck to you. come back and let us know how it goes.
Thanks - will report back… Good luck in London!
How do you guys who are running 65+ MPW stay mentally motivated? Is it just pure drive? I’ve been averaging 48 MPW, 5 runs a week, for the past 7 weeks, and there’s a bunch of times when I’m 8 miles into 12 after work, and I just wish it was over. I can’t imagine adding another 20-35 MPW, but I’m afraid that’s exactly what I will have to do to BQ.
How do you guys who are running 65+ MPW stay mentally motivated? Is it just pure drive? I’ve been averaging 48 MPW, 5 runs a week, for the past 7 weeks, and there’s a bunch of times when I’m 8 miles into 12 after work, and I just wish it was over. I can’t imagine adding another 20-35 MPW, but I’m afraid that’s exactly what I will have to do to BQ.
I run ~70mi/wk in marathon training and wish I had time and injury avoidance ability to run more.
Easy for me. running is my first love. I’ll skip a swim or ride long before I skip a run.
Easy for me. running is my first love. I’ll skip a swim or ride long before I skip a run.
Same here. I just love it. Also, there’s always a race coming up that I need to be working towards.
For me it’s a matter of perspective. Ironman training takes up so much time … Going to the pool, driving to a place where I can actually bike, etc. Once I switch from ironman training mode to pure running mode, it become refreshing to not have to log in as many hours. Plus, I like running. I’m borderline BQ material so that keeps me motivated to not drop off in the mileage.
I’m looking to knock 13 minutes off my marathon PR to go sub-3 hours. So a question to those in the 2:55-3:00 range:
I have 20 weeks.
Thks!
Ran 2:58 for a flat marathon at the Gold Coast, AU.
I guestimate my shape was17:45-18:00 5k or 37:30 10k. I did mostly tempo track work as my hard sessions and best performances were @ 6:04pace ] and a 45min run at 6:12 pace (6 weeks and 4 weeks out respectively). Both were hard workouts but manageable and did not disrupt my weekly running load.
How do you guys who are running 65+ MPW stay mentally motivated? Is it just pure drive? I’ve been averaging 48 MPW, 5 runs a week, for the past 7 weeks, and there’s a bunch of times when I’m 8 miles into 12 after work, and I just wish it was over. I can’t imagine adding another 20-35 MPW, but I’m afraid that’s exactly what I will have to do to BQ.
You’re looking at it wrong.
When I write out my key workouts and build-up for a marathon, I am making a ceiling.
When I leave out in the morning for a 60’ run, every time I look at my watch I think “I can only run X more mintues” instead of “I have to run X more minutes.”
When I am doing threshold/tempo/marathon paced runs, it’s the same. I think, “I can ONLY run hard for 20 minutes today.”
What I’ve found is when I am running too hard, too often, my passion declines and it becomes a chore. Tis happens during iM build because there isn’t as much time for easy stuff. When I run lots of easy miles, I crave the hard stuff and more of the easy stuff.
I was definitely in sub 3:00 shape for Boston this year (36:34 10k three weeks out), but the heat killed those chances. I followed the Pfitz 18/70 plan, and thought it was excellent. I’m running NYC in November and will be doing a modified 8-week version between Vegas 70.3 and NYC.
My key workouts were the 4-5 long runs with 10-14 miles at marathon pace and a weekly speed workout, either a tempo run (in between 10k and HM pace) or something at the track (like 800’s, 1200’s, or 1600’s). I also think that having a midweek 12-15 mile run really helps out.
I’m looking to knock 13 minutes off my marathon PR to go sub-3 hours. So a question to those in the 2:55-3:00 range:
I have 20 weeks.
Thks!
i heard Paul Ryan ran a sub 3 marathon, try contacting his campaign directly for advice