I was wondering if anyone out there who can run a sub 16 5k off Tri training could give an insight into their run training? At the moment I am around a 16:30 5k runner, off of about 40km/25 mile run weeks. Hoping to crack sub 16 by the end of the year. On running forums I see a lot of comments like “You need to be running 50-60 mile weeks”, but that really is not true, especially off Tri training. I’ll be looking to increase my distance a bit from where it’s at now, but only to a max of 55-60km weeks. This is alongside ~200km bike weeks.
If anyone can run a sub 16 5k, I’d love to see what your training looks like!
What does your current 40k/wk look like (long runs, speed sessions, tempos, etc.)?
How old are you?
40k/wk is enough for many runners to go sub-16 (look at a lot of high school varsity runners), but typically the intensity is extremely high.
Ex. in high school XC we were racing 5k 3X/week in season (Tue, Thurs, Sat invitational) in addition to interval workouts (we’d even do 800 reps post race in some cases). In college the volume was a lot higher (100k/wk+), but we only raced 1X/week (8-10k).
What does your current 40k/wk look like (long runs, speed sessions, tempos, etc.)?
How old are you?
40k/wk is enough for many runners to go sub-16 (look at a lot of high school varsity runners), but typically the intensity is extremely high.
Ex. in high school XC we were racing 5k 3X/week in season (Tue, Thurs, Sat invitational) in addition to interval workouts (we’d even do 800 reps post race in some cases). In college the volume was a lot higher (100k/wk+), but we only raced 1X/week (8-10k).
At the moment it’s an average of 4 runs a week, with 1 speed session/tempo, a longer run and a couple of easy runs.
There’s definitely room for more intensity. I’m 22.
What does the rest of your training look like and how long have you been doing it? The advantage of tri training is the endurance boost from the other two sports.
Is this goal time for your peak shape or lead up to A races? What distances do you typically train for?
I ran right at 16 (course was long) back in January on some tired work legs. At the time I was roughly 30mile/week almost all easy with some hill work. But I also had 7-10hrs/week biking and 4-5hrs swimming. All easy/strength.
It is simple really. If you are running 4 times a week and 25 miles, then there should be no easy runs. The 25 miles is fine for a triathlete, but you have to run them really fast. As I recall, Simon Lessing did around that mileage during the sprint season, and he had a pretty good 5k/10k time…Mils Stewart ran even less than 20 MPW, and he was pretty much unbeatable in the run in the last couple miles of any race…But easy run was never put next to anything they did in their training logs…
It is simple really. If you are running 4 times a week and 25 miles, then there should be no easy runs. The 25 miles is fine for a triathlete, but you have to run them really fast. As I recall, Simon Lessing did around that mileage during the sprint season, and he had a pretty good 5k/10k time…Mils Stewart ran even less than 20 MPW, and he was pretty much unbeatable in the run in the last couple miles of any race…But easy run was never put next to anything they did in their training logs…
^^^^This.
Possibly one long run, and three tempo/fartlek/speedwork sessions.
10x400 in 70sec. with rest until HR dropped to 120 was a key session for me. Even did occasional 200M repeats with 200M walk recovery to work on all out speed.
My run weeks were closer to 65-70k but I also wasn’t focusing on 5k. I usually did easy monday (8k), track speed workout 16x400/8x800/6x1k, etc (pick 1, 15k total), wednesday was something hard-ish OTB like 2x10mins threshold (12-14k total), thursday off, friday easy 6k, saturday easy 6k OTB, sunday long run (20-25k). You could switch wednesday and thursday and do another speed workout thursday.
This was in addition to 25k swimming and 300k cycling. Like others have said, it depends on your goals, what your body can handle, what you’re focusing on, etc. I ran sub-15 off this.
What does the rest of your training look like and how long have you been doing it? The advantage of tri training is the endurance boost from the other two sports.
Is this goal time for your peak shape or lead up to A races? What distances do you typically train for?
I ran right at 16 (course was long) back in January on some tired work legs. At the time I was roughly 30mile/week almost all easy with some hill work. But I also had 7-10hrs/week biking and 4-5hrs swimming. All easy/strength.
I’ve been doing tri for about 3 years or so now, and average around 7 hours on the bike, and 3 hours in the pool. This is a goal I’d like to try and reach by September.
It is simple really. If you are running 4 times a week and 25 miles, then there should be no easy runs. The 25 miles is fine for a triathlete, but you have to run them really fast. As I recall, Simon Lessing did around that mileage during the sprint season, and he had a pretty good 5k/10k time…Mils Stewart ran even less than 20 MPW, and he was pretty much unbeatable in the run in the last couple miles of any race…But easy run was never put next to anything they did in their training logs…
^^^^This.
Possibly one long run, and three tempo/fartlek/speedwork sessions.
10x400 in 70sec. with rest until HR dropped to 120 was a key session for me. Even did occasional 200M repeats with 200M walk recovery to work on all out speed.
Over the next few weeks I’ll start to swap a few easy runs for tempo’s etc, will do it gradually as I don’t want to get injured. Thanks for the help!
I am not that fast but have trained with plenty of athletes that are. What I would say is that as you crank up the intensity you need to be very in tune with how your body responds. Some people respond incredibly well to low mileage all out intensity whereas this will break others.
The people saying you need to be 50-60 miles a week are coming at this from the standpoint that many people can not stay injury free and maintain the intensity needed for them to succeed on a 20-30 mile per week program. If you take the Brownless as an example they battled running injuries through there ITU careers which is a real danger when you are doing a lot of peak intensity run workouts. Swimming and biking allows you to build cardio fitness without long runs but it doesn’t help build the ligament/tendon strength that is needed to keep you healthy. What I would suggest is building a running base and then slowly reducing miles while increasing intensity. At some point you will find your ideal balance. If you start by just hammering the miles you are likely to get injured.
Interesting topic, something i’ve wondered alot lately. Can’t believe the speeds that some people can run in triathlon.
As a cyclist trying to run fast (as a 21y/o) I can’t fathom even running 16 min 30s for a 5k. So my coach is an ex ITU champ and lets me build a foundation of running up to 50km a week for the past couple of weeks. Sadly I’ve got the coronavirus for the past 4 weeks which results in max running of 5km for now. But the idea was also building up with base and then lower volume and build intensity. Different approach than I would choose but pretty interesting to test out. He does this to all runners and also to himself. Alot of his coachee’s are sub 16min atleast so I’ll just keep fate (I was at ~18:30).
Being 80kg and almost 196cm I would be happy running sub 17 min in the coming years.
Interesting topic, something i’ve wondered alot lately. Can’t believe the speeds that some people can run in triathlon.
As a cyclist trying to run fast (as a 21y/o) I can’t fathom even running 16 min 30s for a 5k. So my coach is an ex ITU champ and lets me build a foundation of running up to 50km a week for the past couple of weeks. Sadly I’ve got the coronavirus for the past 4 weeks which results in max running of 5km for now. But the idea was also building up with base and then lower volume and build intensity. Different approach than I would choose but pretty interesting to test out. He does this to all runners and also to himself. Alot of his coachee’s are sub 16min atleast so I’ll just keep fate (I was at ~18:30).
Being 80kg and almost 196cm I would be happy running sub 17 min in the coming years.
Hope you are recovering well! Consistency above all else is the key, so I think there’s a bit of trying things out to see what your body can handle and then work from there.
I was wondering if anyone out there who can run a sub 16 5k off Tri training could give an insight into their run training? At the moment I am around a 16:30 5k runner, off of about 40km/25 mile run weeks. Hoping to crack sub 16 by the end of the year. On running forums I see a lot of comments like “You need to be running 50-60 mile weeks”, but that really is not true, especially off Tri training. I’ll be looking to increase my distance a bit from where it’s at now, but only to a max of 55-60km weeks. This is alongside ~200km bike weeks.
I used to be at the paces you are trying to hit. For me it was important to stay consistent and slowly build over time and avoid injuries. You still can improve your run fitness by the intervals you do on the bike as well. Weekly my main sessions would be track workout usually only about 4-5k of actual work plus warm up and cool down. Hill work was a weekly session, what worked for me was longer strength climbs and I used to focus on the uphill portion which was 1km and steady on the downs. For a 5k race you have to get used to the pace going out, it will often go out for the front guys under 3 min for the first 1k and then settle in, you are trying to hit an average of 320 per k so the body has to get used to running comfortably at those paces. There is also free speed available by looking at often neglected things such as how you are breathing and core strength. I have run with lots of people where the times you are trying to hit was easy with a lot of different approaches. Good luck finding what works for you.
monty has it pretty well explained. he and i were both pretty much sub-16 (but not by too much), off of tri training. at least i think we were sub-16; i don’t believe the mechanical clock had been invented yet.
here’s one very memorable training bloc i was in when running at my best, and i guess i’m a little embarrassed to write it, but, after a too-short warm-up, i’d run 16 minutes out on an out-and-back, turn around, note my turnaround spot, and then run back. i counted it as a new record if i got further out than i’d gotten before, as long as i got back in less time than it took me to go out. i always had to negative split. that was my rule.
if i did that today, i’d be toast in 3 weeks. but when i was a young 'un i could get away with stuff. you can give yourself a lot of rope with 25mi/wk. 1 x 10mi run, medium-stiff pace, and 3 x 5mi runs, pretty stiff pace, you can get very fast on that, esp if you’re also swimming/biking.
i was quite close to liz downing, who i’m sure you never heard of, but if you were a triathlete in the last 80s or early 90s she was a household name. this is when duathlon was called biathlon and it was a big part of multisport. liz didn’t lose a race in 5 years. liz rode one USA Cycling race in her entire life, and in that race she broke the women’s 40k national record by a minute and a half. she was a terrific talent. i was her bike sponsor throughout her career. she told me during 1 of her unbeaten years that she calculated all the miles for the year that she ran, divided them by the weeks in the year, and it came out to 11 miles a week. so, you don’t need big miles to run very fast if you’re a multisport athlete.
You certainly don’t need to be running big miles to go sub 16 if you are triathlete
My biggest week run wise was about 40 miles per week , every run however had some work above steady and I would do one hard brick on a Saturday / this built to a 2 hour ride mostly at half IM watts and 6 x 2 miles on the track at around 5-50 pace
I recall around the same time I ran a 5 K TT in the middle of 9 mile run in 16-05
I am 50 this year
Caveat all of the above of course in that I ran for 30 years before turning to Tri !
You do need a fair amount of quality , threshold and tempo work on lower miles for sure
I would highly reccommend a threshold progression. And by threshold pace, I mean the one based on your VDOT. Threshold training has done wonders for my run fitness, more so than any other type IMO.
Lots of comments about having for medium/hard runs. Last year I never ran slower than HM pace + 30s and 3x a week 25-30mpw. I barely progressed on that method.
n=1 but marathon training 5xWeek/ 35-45mpw did wonders for my bike fitness. between Jan 1 and March 28, I completed only 19 bike workouts. My bike ftp TR ramp test went from 290 to 311