Sub 16 5k off Tri Training

Triathlon Forum
21

monty has it pretty well explained. he and i were both pretty much sub-16 (but not by too much), off of tri training. at least i think we were sub-16; i don’t believe the mechanical clock had been invented yet.

here’s one very memorable training bloc i was in when running at my best, and i guess i’m a little embarrassed to write it, but, after a too-short warm-up, i’d run 16 minutes out on an out-and-back, turn around, note my turnaround spot, and then run back. i counted it as a new record if i got further out than i’d gotten before, as long as i got back in less time than it took me to go out. i always had to negative split. that was my rule.

if i did that today, i’d be toast in 3 weeks. but when i was a young 'un i could get away with stuff. you can give yourself a lot of rope with 25mi/wk. 1 x 10mi run, medium-stiff pace, and 3 x 5mi runs, pretty stiff pace, you can get very fast on that, esp if you’re also swimming/biking.

i was quite close to liz downing, who i’m sure you never heard of, but if you were a triathlete in the last 80s or early 90s she was a household name. this is when duathlon was called biathlon and it was a big part of multisport. liz didn’t lose a race in 5 years. liz rode one USA Cycling race in her entire life, and in that race she broke the women’s 40k national record by a minute and a half. she was a terrific talent. i was her bike sponsor throughout her career. she told me during 1 of her unbeaten years that she calculated all the miles for the year that she ran, divided them by the weeks in the year, and it came out to 11 miles a week. so, you don’t need big miles to run very fast if you’re a multisport athlete.

Thanks for the insight! Sadly I hadn’t heard of Liz but I will definitely do some research now.

22

This is a fascinating thread.

Maybe the OP should ask the same questions on letsrun to compare with the weekly mileage they suggest.

23

This is a fascinating thread.

Maybe the OP should ask the same questions on letsrun to compare with the weekly mileage they suggest.

Letsrun would suggest about 80 mile weeks haha

24

Or even all of the BarryP threads on this site. I know it’s a sound plan that has helped a lot of people, but the alternatives in this thread (run a few times FAST) are refreshing to see (and more up my alley).

25

Or even all of the BarryP threads on this site. I know it’s a sound plan that has helped a lot of people, but the alternatives in this thread (run a few times FAST) are refreshing to see (and more up my alley).

Agree - When I was at my fastest for a 5k, it was a 5k 4 or 5 times a week. Never longer and never slow (slow as defined by me)

26

You really only need to drop your pace 10 seconds a mile to reach your target time for a 5K. Recommend you consider focusing on run leg speed in a couple of workouts per week. Here is a theoretical tri workout week for you to adopt and adjust as needed to meet your needs. The bike and run are in miles. You will need to convert to kilometers if interested. The swim distances can be meters or yards depending on capabilities. The qualifiers are that I don’t know what your bike or swim paces are, but assumed 23 mph average in an Olympic distance tri with your swim pace at 1:35. I put the run pace at 5:15, which is a bit quick but gets you on track for your 5K goal. The snap shot week of workouts are for your peak week before you taper a week or two prior to your race/time-trial run date. Also assumes you ramped up smartly to the distances and paces over a period of time. Sounds like you are there now but again, that’s an assumption. For the run speed days, focus on WED & SAT in the fartlek sections to reach runs at the targeted 5:20 per mile pace. Most people race under fartlek conditions, few do a set pace throughout a track or road race unless under pacer type conditions. Hence, you should train as you race. Finally, consider including 3 to 5 pick-ups of 150 meter in distance just before run workout warm-downs. You should run all-out at the top end of the 150’s. This will make the 5:10 mile pace feel reasonable. A couple of other things to consider, you may not have to wait until the end of the summer to reach your target if your base is strong now. The more tri racing you do will wear down your legs and reduce some true run leg speed.

https://www.palmtreesahead.com/
https://www.palmtreesahead.com/coconut-workout-guide

Sub16-5K-v2.gif

27

monty has it pretty well explained. he and i were both pretty much sub-16 (but not by too much), off of tri training. at least i think we were sub-16; i don’t believe the mechanical clock had been invented yet.

here’s one very memorable training bloc i was in when running at my best, and i guess i’m a little embarrassed to write it, but, after a too-short warm-up, i’d run 16 minutes out on an out-and-back, turn around, note my turnaround spot, and then run back. i counted it as a new record if i got further out than i’d gotten before, as long as i got back in less time than it took me to go out. i always had to negative split. that was my rule.

if i did that today, i’d be toast in 3 weeks. but when i was a young 'un i could get away with stuff. you can give yourself a lot of rope with 25mi/wk. 1 x 10mi run, medium-stiff pace, and 3 x 5mi runs, pretty stiff pace, you can get very fast on that, esp if you’re also swimming/biking.

i was quite close to liz downing, who i’m sure you never heard of, but if you were a triathlete in the last 80s or early 90s she was a household name. this is when duathlon was called biathlon and it was a big part of multisport. liz didn’t lose a race in 5 years. liz rode one USA Cycling race in her entire life, and in that race she broke the women’s 40k national record by a minute and a half. she was a terrific talent. i was her bike sponsor throughout her career. she told me during 1 of her unbeaten years that she calculated all the miles for the year that she ran, divided them by the weeks in the year, and it came out to 11 miles a week. so, you don’t need big miles to run very fast if you’re a multisport athlete.

Thanks for the insight! Sadly I hadn’t heard of Liz but I will definitely do some research now.

by the way, you could also do this on 4 days a week, but make one of your days a 2x run day, with at least 1 if not both of those 5mi runs pretty brisk. 2 runs in 1 day steps things up a notch.

28

I agree with most of what has been said.

I ran somewhere in the 15:45 range last year off of less than 35 miles a week of running, never running more than 3 times in a week, all on the treadmill. They key was quality and consistency and I broke it down as follows:

M - 30 to 45’ swim w effort, 30’ trainer ride with some intervals
T - 10 mi run, 3 to 5 mi of tempo work likely around 10 km race pace
W - 60’ masters swim, always a big long set w lots of paddles
T - 10 mi run, 3 mi of interval work in the 400 meter up to 1 mi range
F - 30 to 45’ swim w effort, 30’ trainer ride with some intervals
S - 14.5 mi run, 6 to 10 mi at half marathon pace plus 15’
S - 60 to 90’ trainer ride that was mostly aerobic

Intensity works well for me and I feel I can recover better from it than I can from higher volume.

If I felt a bit tuckered I would ease up on the bike efforts to keep the quality on the runs, rinse and repeat. One other key is really listening to the body and being in tune with how it feels. It is really easy for a niggle to develop into something more serious with high intensity.

If I ran 50 to 75 mi a week, maybe I’d be quicker or maybe I’d end up injured and grumpy…

29

This is a fascinating thread.

Maybe the OP should ask the same questions on letsrun to compare with the weekly mileage they suggest.

Letsrun would suggest about 80 mile weeks haha

Yeah you’d get laughed out of the room for being a serious runner at 40k/week :wink:

They’d also tell you to run doubles and drop the cycling and swimming as they’re clearly doing nothing for your running and are thus worthless.

30

Letsrun would suggest about 80 miles a week.

Let’s not confuse what would help one (or a few) guy(s) run 16 minutes with what will make you the best runner you can be. Some people can run a 16 min 5K off a few miles a week. Most cannot even come close to that. When I was coaching high school runners I coached them based off what they were actually willing to do, but when I talked with them I would use examples from elite runners. An elite 5K guy is going to be running from 100-140 miles per week depending on background.
80 miles per week was for the 1500 runners.
The problem for most people is the patience it takes to build up run volume and the dimishing returns you receive from more and more volume/training.
When you decide to try and run well off very low mileage, you are basically saying that good enough is good enough.

31

Letsrun would suggest about 80 miles a week.

Let’s not confuse what would help one (or a few) guy(s) run 16 minutes with what will make you the best runner you can be. Some people can run a 16 min 5K off a few miles a week. Most cannot even come close to that. When I was coaching high school runners I coached them based off what they were actually willing to do, but when I talked with them I would use examples from elite runners. An elite 5K guy is going to be running from 100-140 miles per week depending on background.
80 miles per week was for the 1500 runners.
The problem for most people is the patience it takes to build up run volume and the dimishing returns you receive from more and more volume/training.
When you decide to try and run well off very low mileage, you are basically saying that good enough is good enough.

I am not sure where you are getting those mile estimates but they are real high. I had a quick looked at weekly numbers for Ryan McLeod (14.20 5km/29.18 10km/UK Half-marathon champ) when he was at his peak. He is a prolific strava user so the data is easy to look at. He was doing 60-80 mile per week at peak half-marthon training with a biggest week of 102 miles. I know its a single example but it is very close to what I have seen for other national champion standard athlete. If by elite you mean the guys in the Olympic finals then maybe you are correct. The idea that Ryan was only running 80 miles per week because he was settling for being good enough is insulting though.

32

Definitely achievable without changing much at all. I never ran sub 16 for 5k (mainly because I never did any 5k races) but did 9.30 for a track 3k race and have a 33 minute road 10k time. I too ran 4 times per week. One long, two harder and one brick or easy. Harder efforts were track repeats (800s or mile) and tempo road efforts. Maximum weekly run mileage about 25. In hindsight I would probably include some much shorter and quicker efforts over 200/300 metres with plenty of rest. My advice, for what it’s worth, would be to NOT make every run hard, after all you are a triathlete not just a runner and you will already be doing hard swims/bikes/gym sessions. Good luck.

33

Letsrun would suggest about 80 miles a week.

Let’s not confuse what would help one (or a few) guy(s) run 16 minutes with what will make you the best runner you can be. Some people can run a 16 min 5K off a few miles a week. Most cannot even come close to that. When I was coaching high school runners I coached them based off what they were actually willing to do, but when I talked with them I would use examples from elite runners. An elite 5K guy is going to be running from 100-140 miles per week depending on background.
80 miles per week was for the 1500 runners.
The problem for most people is the patience it takes to build up run volume and the dimishing returns you receive from more and more volume/training.
When you decide to try and run well off very low mileage, you are basically saying that good enough is good enough.

I agree to an extent, however 80 mile run weeks as a triathlete working full time is nigh impossible haha, there’s probably a handful of ironman pro athletes who might get close to 80 mile weeks. I don’t think you are necessarily giving up on bigger goals by trying to run well off low mileage, just being realistic with time goals and aiming to maximise efficiency of training.

34

Definitely achievable without changing much at all. I never ran sub 16 for 5k (mainly because I never did any 5k races) but did 9.30 for a track 3k race and have a 33 minute road 10k time. I too ran 4 times per week. One long, two harder and one brick or easy. Harder efforts were track repeats (800s or mile) and tempo road efforts. Maximum weekly run mileage about 25. In hindsight I would probably include some much shorter and quicker efforts over 200/300 metres with plenty of rest. My advice, for what it’s worth, would be to NOT make every run hard, after all you are a triathlete not just a runner and you will already be doing hard swims/bikes/gym sessions. Good luck.

Thanks for the advice!

35

You really only need to drop your pace 10 seconds a mile to reach your target time for a 5K. Recommend you consider focusing on run leg speed in a couple of workouts per week. Here is a theoretical tri workout week for you to adopt and adjust as needed to meet your needs. The bike and run are in miles. You will need to convert to kilometers if interested. The swim distances can be meters or yards depending on capabilities. The qualifiers are that I don’t know what your bike or swim paces are, but assumed 23 mph average in an Olympic distance tri with your swim pace at 1:35. I put the run pace at 5:15, which is a bit quick but gets you on track for your 5K goal. The snap shot week of workouts are for your peak week before you taper a week or two prior to your race/time-trial run date. Also assumes you ramped up smartly to the distances and paces over a period of time. Sounds like you are there now but again, that’s an assumption. For the run speed days, focus on WED & SAT in the fartlek sections to reach runs at the targeted 5:20 per mile pace. Most people race under fartlek conditions, few do a set pace throughout a track or road race unless under pacer type conditions. Hence, you should train as you race. Finally, consider including 3 to 5 pick-ups of 150 meter in distance just before run workout warm-downs. You should run all-out at the top end of the 150’s. This will make the 5:10 mile pace feel reasonable. A couple of other things to consider, you may not have to wait until the end of the summer to reach your target if your base is strong now. The more tri racing you do will wear down your legs and reduce some true run leg speed.

https://www.palmtreesahead.com/
https://www.palmtreesahead.com/coconut-workout-guide

Thanks for that!

36

Well, first off, let’s admit that none of us really knows EVERYTHING that another runner does unless we run with them or coach them. The other thing I used to tell my athletes is that just because one person can do something does not mean that should be the rule.
My opinion is based off of years of scouring every source I can find to try and help my runners. I don’t catalog them with sources so I can show people later but a few statements do stick out.
First, I was researching the 800 specifically for a guy who finally wanted to train his senior year and I came across a thread on letsrun. One of the contributors was a guy who was trying to make the Olympic team (in the 800) training with a running group/enclave/whatever you call them. He ended up not being able to break through 1:45 when the other guys in his group made it to 1:43 and he bumped up to 1500 (where he ran as fast as 3:38 but did not make the Olympics). He said that he did not know any internationally competitive 1500 guys that ran less than 80 per week, 800 guys running less than 60, and even 400 runners that ran less than 50. If I recall correctly, he also made this hilariour statement. “I remember watching Bob Kennedy as a chubby high school senior running 4:10 on 30 miles a week. A year later and 10 pounds lighter at 60 miles a week he won NCAA XC as a freshman. Years later, 10 pounds lighter and 100 miles a week and he became an Olympian.” Later on Alan Culpepper in his book Run, quoted Kennedy as running as much as 130-140 miles in his base phase.
Now, none of those is proof of anything, but every time I go looking for an elite runner’s program I am amazed at how much they run. Most recently, was helping my son on a research paper and came across some very good articles on runnersconnect about 5K and 10K training and the author detailed two of his weeks which totalled 139 and 144. For a 3K race!
I am always amazed at the volume of work some of these guys can do.
Anyway, this is not meant to prove any one way is right or wrong but every time I research stuff like this I come across men and women doing massive volume.

37

**Anyway, this is not meant to prove any one way is right or wrong but every time I research stuff like this I come across men and women doing massive volume. **
Are they also swimming and running 15 hours a week too? The OP’s question was “as a triathlete, doing triathlon training”. He also was only trying to break the 5k world record for 65 year olds! (-;

38

**Are they also swimming and running 15 hours a week too? **
I would assume not, but when we bring letsrun into the discussion then I think you are talking about ultimate running performance and not just what you can do with multi-sport training.
Just to provide somewhat of a counterpoint to my own argument, I had a good friend who developed a heel spur at age 40 and went years without having surgery. He swam every day and rode back and forth to work (upwards of 20-25 hours per week) but only ran at races. He said he could fake it (not his exact words) up to about 10k and then he was hurting. His swim and ride were pretty dominant so he was still able to compete for overall wins at shorter tri distances with his only running coming during the triathlons. Now, he had been running fairly high (maybe 8 hours a week) run volume for 20 years and I got the impression the longer it went on, the more his run leg suffered until he finally decided to have surgery.
A person can certainly run fast off of other training, but even my friend Doug would not have told you it was the optimum.

In any case, I went back and reread the original post and now I’m not sure if he was asking if you could run an open 16 min 5K or a 16 min in a tri. I thought he was implying in an open 5K.

39

n any case, I went back and reread the original post and now I’m not sure if he was asking if you could run an open 16 min 5K or a 16 min in a tri. I thought he was implying in an open 5K. //

Pretty sure it was in question to an open 5k, a 30 second drop overall from what he is running right now…My answer to him was just to run his 25mpw faster, and not run 50% of that mileage as slow or recovery, and he should be able to drop that 10 seconds a mile for 3 miles…

40

n any case, I went back and reread the original post and now I’m not sure if he was asking if you could run an open 16 min 5K or a 16 min in a tri. I thought he was implying in an open 5K. //

Pretty sure it was in question to an open 5k, a 30 second drop overall from what he is running right now…My answer to him was just to run his 25mpw faster, and not run 50% of that mileage as slow or recovery, and he should be able to drop that 10 seconds a mile for 3 miles…

To clarify it was in an open 5k. I’ll let you know how it goes!