Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims

Having read through all of the posts so far I think there is a simple logic.

If you race Triathlon you need to race on a equal plane to everyone else.(level of gear notwithstanding)
If all can swim with a wetsuit, then it’s equal (level of gear notwithstanding) even if some chose not to swim in one.

If you need a flotation device to feel comfortable in the water, you are no longer racing on an equal footing with everyone else.
You are now at best a participant, no different than someone who has electric assist on their bike.

There are no races in which you can race alongside a hurdler, but without going over the hurdles.
Learning to swim, is a hurdle, if you don’t want to go over, don’t do that race.

Sorry for the tangent. This is the aspect I didnt appreciate coming into the sport. Something just doesn’t sit right with me that $s spent can have such a huge effect on results. I get it, understand, not proposing anything different just doesn’t sit right with me. Just probably being a naïve idiot :slight_smile:

Nope, Dan didn’t bribe anybody. We didn’t have the money to do that.

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.

Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.

If it was warm and made of neoprene, it was buoyant. That’s just how they work…

With regard to your note…on my note, “level of gear notwithstanding”

Let me make a few observations, because truthfully it’s easy to get blinded on these forums.

The level of gear you have, above just basically good, means bupkiss. Literally. bupkiss.
And this is why…(in my opinion, it’s an opinion, because all opinion passes for fact here).

Out of literally hundreds I have raced one particular IM distance race on four different bikes and four different wetsuits, over the course of twenty years (6 times + 2 HIM + 1 Olympic).

The fastest swim I had was in a sleeveless. The rest, including a simsuit (quicker T1) were all within 2 minutes of each other.

The fastest bike was on a Cervelo Dual (their discontinued,cheapest model), with a wheel cover and an OEM front wheel (picture on here). You can buy that rig for a few hundred today (not mine). I’ll admit it was faster than the steel frame $200 Nishiki with a clamped on aero bar or the $90 10 speed from The Bay. But that was because I couldn’t actually sit on the Nishiki for 6’ish hours, knew nothing about gears, nutrition, hydration, position and wore a T shirt with running shorts. The several thousand, more costly bike, saddle, expensive wheels, aero suit, better nutrition and hydration, gave me the same results, since I learned to sit.

Doesn’t matter how much you spend on shoes and a hat, you ain’t going faster unless you train.

Most people waste more time in transition that they ever gain from the equipment. Including me.

I don’t regret buying the toys (men and boys…), but you don’t need them.
A Rolex still only tells the time.

Probably true! I did just finish my second tri ever at 50 yrs old at IMMT 70.3 in 6 hrs on a 20 yr old road bike and a used/ripped entry level wetsuit :slight_smile:

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.

Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.

If it was warm and made of neoprene, it was buoyant. That’s just how they work…

My old surfing wettie was not made out of neoprene. I can’t recall what it was made out of but it was not the black shiny neoprene. Jason, I don’t know what I can do to make you believe me but NON-BUOYANT WETSUITS DO EXIST. I KNOW B/C I WASTED MY MONEY ON BUYING ONE BY MISTAKE BEFORE I FOUND A REAL TRI WETTIE. So, all I’m saying is that, if USAT wanted to, they could require wetsuits to be non-buoyant. They could test them fairly easily: just throw the suit in the pool and see if floats or sinks. Of course, after 35 yrs of floaty wetsuits, this will never happen.

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.

Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.

If it was warm and made of neoprene, it was buoyant. That’s just how they work…

My old surfing wettie was not made out of neoprene. I can’t recall what it was made out of but it was not the black shiny neoprene. Jason, I don’t know what I can do to make you believe me but NON-BUOYANT WETSUITS DO EXIST. I KNOW B/C I WASTED MY MONEY ON BUYING ONE BY MISTAKE BEFORE I FOUND A REAL TRI WETTIE. So, all I’m saying is that, if USAT wanted to, they could require wetsuits to be non-buoyant. They could test them fairly easily: just throw the suit in the pool and see if floats or sinks. Of course, after 35 yrs of floaty wetsuits, this will never happen.

I’m wondering when people started using wetsuits in triathlons

I don’t recall anyone at Lake Placid wearing one in ‘84. I ended up with hypothermia. Speedos only going down hill in something like 55 degree weather I winder why lol

Last thing I remembered, before waking up in the back of the car 3 hours towards Rochester, was getting off the bike in T2.

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.
Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.
If it was warm and made of neoprene, it was buoyant. That’s just how they work…
My old surfing wettie was not made out of neoprene. I can’t recall what it was made out of but it was not the black shiny neoprene. Jason, I don’t know what I can do to make you believe me but NON-BUOYANT WETSUITS DO EXIST. I KNOW B/C I WASTED MY MONEY ON BUYING ONE BY MISTAKE BEFORE I FOUND A REAL TRI WETTIE. So, all I’m saying is that, if USAT wanted to, they could require wetsuits to be non-buoyant. They could test them fairly easily: just throw the suit in the pool and see if floats or sinks. Of course, after 35 yrs of floaty wetsuits, this will never happen.

I’m wondering when people started using wetsuits in triathlons
I don’t recall anyone at Lake Placid wearing one in ‘84. I ended up with hypothermia. Speedos only going down hill in something like 55 degree weather I winder why lol
Last thing I remembered, before waking up in the back of the car 3 hours towards Rochester, was getting off the bike in T2.

I think around 1986-ish. I recall seeing them at Hilton Head in 1987, where the water was just barely wetsuit legal. Sounds like you got hypothermic on the bike though, but I’m sure being freezing coming OOTW was part of it. Sheet, I would’ve taken time to put on tights and long-sleeved shirt in T1. I abso HATE being cold on the bike. :slight_smile:

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.
Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.
If it was warm and made of neoprene, it was buoyant. That’s just how they work…
My old surfing wettie was not made out of neoprene. I can’t recall what it was made out of but it was not the black shiny neoprene. Jason, I don’t know what I can do to make you believe me but NON-BUOYANT WETSUITS DO EXIST. I KNOW B/C I WASTED MY MONEY ON BUYING ONE BY MISTAKE BEFORE I FOUND A REAL TRI WETTIE. So, all I’m saying is that, if USAT wanted to, they could require wetsuits to be non-buoyant. They could test them fairly easily: just throw the suit in the pool and see if floats or sinks. Of course, after 35 yrs of floaty wetsuits, this will never happen.

I’m wondering when people started using wetsuits in triathlons
I don’t recall anyone at Lake Placid wearing one in ‘84. I ended up with hypothermia. Speedos only going down hill in something like 55 degree weather I winder why lol
Last thing I remembered, before waking up in the back of the car 3 hours towards Rochester, was getting off the bike in T2.

I think around 1986-ish. I recall seeing them at Hilton Head in 1987, where the water was just barely wetsuit legal. Sounds like you got hypothermic on the bike though, but I’m sure being freezing coming OOTW was part of it. Sheet, I would’ve taken time to put on tights and long-sleeved shirt in T1. I abso HATE being cold on the bike. :slight_smile:

I have never seen a surf “wettie” that did not have neoprene. Rash guards yes, “wetties” no. Just because it is not black or shiny, does not mean it is not neoprene. Most wetsuits have fabric on both sides, to protect against abrasion of the rubber on the board- so you rarely see the actual neoprene. Also, swim wetsuits are design for optimum flotation of a swimmer, surf suits are temp only- so a win wetsuit would almost always get you higher in the water than a surf suit. Hope this helps.

I get that, and I don’t disagree that I could find some advantage if I really invested the time. But that’s the rub: How much advantage would I get and how much time would I have to invest? You say 2-3 minutes off a 70.3 swim; that’s not nothing, but its also not huge for a mid-packer like me. And the one thing I don’t have is an unlimited supply of time and energy to devote to this hobby. To me, it makes more sense to spend that time on the bike and run where I think my ROI is better. Improving one’s swim as you are suggesting is not a zero-cost proposition; there are trade-offs and in the grand scheme its a low priority issue for me because (as I said) I don’t see any non-wetsuit race swims in my future anytime soon. That being said, I don’t use this as an excuse to say I should be allowed to wear sim shorts in a race if it isn’t wetsuit legal. I just stay away from races that are likely to not be wetsuit legal to begin with. But I seek out bike courses with a lot of climbing because that suits my strength. Horses for courses, as they say.

I guess my more general point is that I don’t hear the bikers on here talking about how we should all be working on criterium racing skills because that will make us better triathlon cyclists. But swimmers seem really put out that many triathletes don’t really embrace the purity of swimming for its own sake as opposed to just a component of the overall sport we choose to do.

And I don’t do flip turns or butterfly either.

Your biggest problem regarding swimming is you clearly do not understand it. If you did, you would now that you could reduce your current pool time by REDUCING your pool time it you focused on technique and water body balance. Swimming for any amount of time with bad form is totally wasted time. Go back to basics, learn to float properly, learn to swim…you will be much faster with much less effort.
Regarding your bike comments- it is that attitude that results in so many unnecessary bike crashes. Bike skills, including balance at very slow speed, including track stands, is essential for safety, and will also make you faster- that is the main reason so many top pro cyclists choose rollers

To the original post- the rules are clear. We could all waste thousands of hours debating the why to any rule. The replies you received to your question were simple, to the point answers, which is not snarky.
If you don’t like the rules, write to the governing bodies and request changes, or don’t race.

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.
Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.
If it was warm and made of neoprene, it was buoyant. That’s just how they work…
My old surfing wettie was not made out of neoprene. I can’t recall what it was made out of but it was not the black shiny neoprene. Jason, I don’t know what I can do to make you believe me but NON-BUOYANT WETSUITS DO EXIST. I KNOW B/C I WASTED MY MONEY ON BUYING ONE BY MISTAKE BEFORE I FOUND A REAL TRI WETTIE. So, all I’m saying is that, if USAT wanted to, they could require wetsuits to be non-buoyant. They could test them fairly easily: just throw the suit in the pool and see if floats or sinks. Of course, after 35 yrs of floaty wetsuits, this will never happen.

I’m wondering when people started using wetsuits in triathlons
I don’t recall anyone at Lake Placid wearing one in ‘84. I ended up with hypothermia. Speedos only going down hill in something like 55 degree weather I winder why lol
Last thing I remembered, before waking up in the back of the car 3 hours towards Rochester, was getting off the bike in T2.

I think around 1986-ish. I recall seeing them at Hilton Head in 1987, where the water was just barely wetsuit legal. Sounds like you got hypothermic on the bike though, but I’m sure being freezing coming OOTW was part of it. Sheet, I would’ve taken time to put on tights and long-sleeved shirt in T1. I abso HATE being cold on the bike. :slight_smile:

I have never seen a surf “wettie” that did not have neoprene. Rash guards yes, “wetties” no. Just because it is not black or shiny, does not mean it is not neoprene. Most wetsuits have fabric on both sides, to protect against abrasion of the rubber on the board- so you rarely see the actual neoprene. Also, swim wetsuits are design for optimum flotation of a swimmer, surf suits are temp only- so a win wetsuit would almost always get you higher in the water than a surf suit. Hope this helps.

It was not just a “rash guard”. All I can say is that the surf wettie I had was not buoyant at all. As I said 4 or 5 posts ago, I tested it vs just my Speedo in a 2 x 500 on 2 min rest, and same time within 1 sec. BUT the biggest thing is that, when I bought a Quintana Roo wettie, OH MY DOG, I could INSTANTLY FEEL that I was MUCH more buoyant. There was abso no comparison betw the two. Soooo, I still say tri wetsuits could be made non-buoyant.

It was not just a “rash guard”. All I can say is that the surf wettie I had was not buoyant at all. As I said 4 or 5 posts ago, I tested it vs just my Speedo in a 2 x 500 on 2 min rest, and same time within 1 sec. BUT the biggest thing is that, when I bought a Quintana Roo wettie, OH MY DOG, I could INSTANTLY FEEL that I was MUCH more buoyant. There was abso no comparison betw the two. Soooo, I still say tri wetsuits could be made non-buoyant.

If you threw the wetsuit in the water all by itself, did it float? Yes? Then it was buoyant…

Just because you did a “test” means nothing about whether it was buoyant or not. Just because the other one was more buoyant doesn’t mean the surf wetsuit wasn’t buoyant at all.

I can’t think of any insulating materials that you can wear that wouldn’t float, at least until they become waterlogged. And then they cease to be good insulators.

This is a huge part of it. I can go 18:00 for a 1500m swim in the pool and be totally slacking it… at masters meets I’m about a minute faster. The trick is not training a bunch of 1500s at slacker pace but tons of shorter intervals at or above race pace.

It was not just a “rash guard”. All I can say is that the surf wettie I had was not buoyant at all. As I said 4 or 5 posts ago, I tested it vs just my Speedo in a 2 x 500 on 2 min rest, and same time within 1 sec. BUT the biggest thing is that, when I bought a Quintana Roo (QR) wettie, OH MY DOG, I could INSTANTLY FEEL that I was MUCH more buoyant. There was abso no comparison betw the two. Soooo, I still say tri wetsuits could be made non-buoyant.

If you threw the wetsuit in the water all by itself, did it float? Yes? Then it was buoyant…

Just because you did a “test” means nothing about whether it was buoyant or not. Just because the other one was more buoyant doesn’t mean the surf wetsuit wasn’t buoyant at all.

I can’t think of any insulating materials that you can wear that wouldn’t float, at least until they become waterlogged. And then they cease to be good insulators.

It might have been very, very slightly buoyant but compared to the QR it was not significant.

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.
Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.
If it was warm and made of neoprene, it was buoyant. That’s just how they work…
My old surfing wettie was not made out of neoprene. I can’t recall what it was made out of but it was not the black shiny neoprene. Jason, I don’t know what I can do to make you believe me but NON-BUOYANT WETSUITS DO EXIST. I KNOW B/C I WASTED MY MONEY ON BUYING ONE BY MISTAKE BEFORE I FOUND A REAL TRI WETTIE. So, all I’m saying is that, if USAT wanted to, they could require wetsuits to be non-buoyant. They could test them fairly easily: just throw the suit in the pool and see if floats or sinks. Of course, after 35 yrs of floaty wetsuits, this will never happen.

I’m wondering when people started using wetsuits in triathlons
I don’t recall anyone at Lake Placid wearing one in ‘84. I ended up with hypothermia. Speedos only going down hill in something like 55 degree weather I winder why lol
Last thing I remembered, before waking up in the back of the car 3 hours towards Rochester, was getting off the bike in T2.

I think around 1986-ish. I recall seeing them at Hilton Head in 1987, where the water was just barely wetsuit legal. Sounds like you got hypothermic on the bike though, but I’m sure being freezing coming OOTW was part of it. Sheet, I would’ve taken time to put on tights and long-sleeved shirt in T1. I abso HATE being cold on the bike. :slight_smile:

if only there was a way to know the answers to questions like this ;-(

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.
Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.
If it was warm and made of neoprene, it was buoyant. That’s just how they work…
My old surfing wettie was not made out of neoprene. I can’t recall what it was made out of but it was not the black shiny neoprene. Jason, I don’t know what I can do to make you believe me but NON-BUOYANT WETSUITS DO EXIST. I KNOW B/C I WASTED MY MONEY ON BUYING ONE BY MISTAKE BEFORE I FOUND A REAL TRI WETTIE. So, all I’m saying is that, if USAT wanted to, they could require wetsuits to be non-buoyant. They could test them fairly easily: just throw the suit in the pool and see if floats or sinks. Of course, after 35 yrs of floaty wetsuits, this will never happen.

I’m wondering when people started using wetsuits in triathlons
I don’t recall anyone at Lake Placid wearing one in ‘84. I ended up with hypothermia. Speedos only going down hill in something like 55 degree weather I winder why lol
Last thing I remembered, before waking up in the back of the car 3 hours towards Rochester, was getting off the bike in T2.

I think around 1986-ish. I recall seeing them at Hilton Head in 1987, where the water was just barely wetsuit legal. Sounds like you got hypothermic on the bike though, but I’m sure being freezing coming OOTW was part of it. Sheet, I would’ve taken time to put on tights and long-sleeved shirt in T1. I abso HATE being cold on the bike. :slight_smile:

if only there was a way to know the answers to questions like this ;-(

I didn’t want to bother you Dan b/c I know you’re busy with important tri-business stuff, but if you have the time, please tell us a brief history of the tri wetsuit. I’m espec interested in whether there was any discussion with Tri Fed about wetsuits being worn mainly to provide buoyancy, which technically I think would be in violation of the rules??? If you’ve read my other posts in this thread, you know that I bought a negligibly buoyant surfing wetsuit before I discovered your QR wetsuit, which was super buoyant compared to the surfing wettie. Thus I think it is possible to make a relatively non-buoyant wetsuit???

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.
Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.
If it was warm and made of neoprene, it was buoyant. That’s just how they work…
My old surfing wettie was not made out of neoprene. I can’t recall what it was made out of but it was not the black shiny neoprene. Jason, I don’t know what I can do to make you believe me but NON-BUOYANT WETSUITS DO EXIST. I KNOW B/C I WASTED MY MONEY ON BUYING ONE BY MISTAKE BEFORE I FOUND A REAL TRI WETTIE. So, all I’m saying is that, if USAT wanted to, they could require wetsuits to be non-buoyant. They could test them fairly easily: just throw the suit in the pool and see if floats or sinks. Of course, after 35 yrs of floaty wetsuits, this will never happen.

I’m wondering when people started using wetsuits in triathlons
I don’t recall anyone at Lake Placid wearing one in ‘84. I ended up with hypothermia. Speedos only going down hill in something like 55 degree weather I winder why lol
Last thing I remembered, before waking up in the back of the car 3 hours towards Rochester, was getting off the bike in T2.

I think around 1986-ish. I recall seeing them at Hilton Head in 1987, where the water was just barely wetsuit legal. Sounds like you got hypothermic on the bike though, but I’m sure being freezing coming OOTW was part of it. Sheet, I would’ve taken time to put on tights and long-sleeved shirt in T1. I abso HATE being cold on the bike. :slight_smile:

I think you are right

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.
Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.
If it was warm and made of neoprene, it was buoyant. That’s just how they work…
My old surfing wettie was not made out of neoprene. I can’t recall what it was made out of but it was not the black shiny neoprene. Jason, I don’t know what I can do to make you believe me but NON-BUOYANT WETSUITS DO EXIST. I KNOW B/C I WASTED MY MONEY ON BUYING ONE BY MISTAKE BEFORE I FOUND A REAL TRI WETTIE. So, all I’m saying is that, if USAT wanted to, they could require wetsuits to be non-buoyant. They could test them fairly easily: just throw the suit in the pool and see if floats or sinks. Of course, after 35 yrs of floaty wetsuits, this will never happen.

I’m wondering when people started using wetsuits in triathlons
I don’t recall anyone at Lake Placid wearing one in ‘84. I ended up with hypothermia. Speedos only going down hill in something like 55 degree weather I winder why lol
Last thing I remembered, before waking up in the back of the car 3 hours towards Rochester, was getting off the bike in T2.

I think around 1986-ish. I recall seeing them at Hilton Head in 1987, where the water was just barely wetsuit legal. Sounds like you got hypothermic on the bike though, but I’m sure being freezing coming OOTW was part of it. Sheet, I would’ve taken time to put on tights and long-sleeved shirt in T1. I abso HATE being cold on the bike. :slight_smile:

if only there was a way to know the answers to questions like this ;-(

I didn’t want to bother you Dan b/c I know you’re busy with important tri-business stuff, but if you have the time, please tell us a brief history of the tri wetsuit. I’m espec interested in whether there was any discussion with Tri Fed about wetsuits being worn mainly to provide buoyancy, which technically I think would be in violation of the rules??? If you’ve read my other posts in this thread, you know that I bought a negligibly buoyant surfing wetsuit before I discovered your QR wetsuit, which was super buoyant compared to the surfing wettie. Thus I think it is possible to make a relatively non-buoyant wetsuit???

i would imagine i wrote all this somewhere on slowtwitch (on the front page), but in short strokes, prior to the beginning of the 1987 northern hemisphere season, nobody wore wetsuits unless the swim was quite cold. the founder of aquaman wetsuits (in france) disputes this. but, we had a lot of europeans coming to socal to train and race, and none of them brought a wetsuit. yes, there were wetsuits marketed to triathletes, bodyglove had ads in triathlete mag as far back as 1984, but they were pretty much just surf wetsuits, and only marketed for warmth, and nobody wore them in races.

at bass lake, in 1986, scott tinley and gary peterson wore their surf wetsuits. the race was in september then, and we were standing in snow waiting for the gun to go off. i thought to myself, well, tinley is going to be comfortable in the swim, let’s see whether he feels it was worth it later, after he gets smoked. and he didn’t get smoked. he swam fine.

that’s what gave me the idea that a wetsuit, optimized for swimming, might actually be a worthwhile thing to own. very long story short, there was about a 6 month interval between that bass lake race and the first wetsuits i had available for sale. my investigation into this wasn’t at all, in the least, for commercial purposes. i just was curious. this didn’t become a commercial enterprise until i swam my first 100 yards in my first wetsuit designed for surface swimming. i honestly didn’t know what that would yield. my hope was simply that it wouldn’t be slower than swimming without a wetsuit. i had to swim a second 100 because i literally thought i’d made a mistake in timing while swimming my first 100, because i swam that first 100 about 7 seconds faster than i should’ve. only after that first pool test did it occur to me that there’s a business opportunity here.

i could not convince any pro, beyond an initial 4 or 5 who were well known to me, that the wetsuit was worth racing in. the only pros who had an open mind were monty, andrew macnaughton and brad kearns. back in 87, the latter 2 were arguably, over the first half of the season, the world’s fastest, and part of that i’m sure is they had the 2 newest pieces of tech before anyone else did: the scott bar and the QR wetsuit. all the other pros - and i mean all of them - were certain they’d swim slower in the wetsuit than out of it. i didn’t sweat it. for each of them, that notion lasted exactly 1 race.

there were 2 local pros, tom gallagher and mike fillipow, who were also early converts, simply because i need to photograph someone in my wetsuits and those 2 graciously agreed. i still have those photos; they’re on slowtwitch.

it never occurred to me to ask TriFed (it wasn’t called USA Triathlon back then) about legality. there was no way they’d make the wetsuit illegal. what i did do was place on myself the guardrail of 5mm max rubber thickness. i felt that if i kept the wetsuit to a reasonable thickness, and didn’t get greedy, that the federation would give me no problem.

i have tried to get a photo for years, from the bakersfield californian, from 1987, in may, the bakersfield triathlon, a photo taken from the water, looking back at the start, right as the gun went off, the pro field first, and behind them the first age group wave. the entire pro field is in wetsuits, pretty much all of those wetsuits mine, and just behind in the AG wave none of them in wetsuits, except 1 brazilian aspiring pro who i happened to know. that pic represented, to me, and still does now, the difference between those who actually know stuff, who need to know stuff, for whom science, technology, engineering, facts, are imperatives, versus those who’re oblivious, or who unwittingly suffer from their ignorance or obstinacy.

most of those pros in that image did not want to wear a wetsuit; but every one of them was faced with a reckoning with what is, rather than what ought to be. it’s a parable for decisions we’re all faced with in life; and the bifurcation between our behaviors when the shit gets brown versus our behaviors when we have (or think we have) the luxury of acting on caprice and whimsy. my editorializing is beyond the scope of your question. but you got it anyway :wink:

This is a huge part of it. I can go 18:00 for a 1500m swim in the pool and be totally slacking it… at masters meets I’m about a minute faster. The trick is not training a bunch of 1500s at slacker pace but tons of shorter intervals at or above race pace.

Opposite for me… Last year long slacker sets. This year race pace or faster shorter sets… I ended up going 2 min slower at my “A” race (other races slow too)

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.
Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.
If it was warm and made of neoprene, it was buoyant. That’s just how they work…
My old surfing wettie was not made out of neoprene. I can’t recall what it was made out of but it was not the black shiny neoprene. Jason, I don’t know what I can do to make you believe me but NON-BUOYANT WETSUITS DO EXIST. I KNOW B/C I WASTED MY MONEY ON BUYING ONE BY MISTAKE BEFORE I FOUND A REAL TRI WETTIE. So, all I’m saying is that, if USAT wanted to, they could require wetsuits to be non-buoyant. They could test them fairly easily: just throw the suit in the pool and see if floats or sinks. Of course, after 35 yrs of floaty wetsuits, this will never happen.

I’m wondering when people started using wetsuits in triathlons
I don’t recall anyone at Lake Placid wearing one in ‘84. I ended up with hypothermia. Speedos only going down hill in something like 55 degree weather I winder why lol
Last thing I remembered, before waking up in the back of the car 3 hours towards Rochester, was getting off the bike in T2.

I think around 1986-ish. I recall seeing them at Hilton Head in 1987, where the water was just barely wetsuit legal. Sounds like you got hypothermic on the bike though, but I’m sure being freezing coming OOTW was part of it. Sheet, I would’ve taken time to put on tights and long-sleeved shirt in T1. I abso HATE being cold on the bike. :slight_smile:

if only there was a way to know the answers to questions like this ;-(

I didn’t want to bother you Dan b/c I know you’re busy with important tri-business stuff, but if you have the time, please tell us a brief history of the tri wetsuit. I’m espec interested in whether there was any discussion with Tri Fed about wetsuits being worn mainly to provide buoyancy, which technically I think would be in violation of the rules??? If you’ve read my other posts in this thread, you know that I bought a negligibly buoyant surfing wetsuit before I discovered your QR wetsuit, which was super buoyant compared to the surfing wettie. Thus I think it is possible to make a relatively non-buoyant wetsuit???

i would imagine i wrote all this somewhere on slowtwitch (on the front page), but in short strokes, prior to the beginning of the 1987 northern hemisphere season, nobody wore wetsuits unless the swim was quite cold. the founder of aquaman wetsuits (in france) disputes this. but, we had a lot of europeans coming to socal to train and race, and none of them brought a wetsuit. yes, there were wetsuits marketed to triathletes, bodyglove had ads in triathlete mag as far back as 1984, but they were pretty much just surf wetsuits, and only marketed for warmth, and nobody wore them in races.

at bass lake, in 1986, scott tinley and gary peterson wore their surf wetsuits. the race was in september then, and we were standing in snow waiting for the gun to go off. i thought to myself, well, tinley is going to be comfortable in the swim, let’s see whether he feels it was worth it later, after he gets smoked. and he didn’t get smoked. he swam fine.

that’s what gave me the idea that a wetsuit, optimized for swimming, might actually be a worthwhile thing to own. very long story short, there was about a 6 month interval between that bass lake race and the first wetsuits i had available for sale. my investigation into this wasn’t at all, in the least, for commercial purposes. i just was curious. this didn’t become a commercial enterprise until i swam my first 100 yards in my first wetsuit designed for surface swimming. i honestly didn’t know what that would yield. my hope was simply that it wouldn’t be slower than swimming without a wetsuit. i had to swim a second 100 because i literally thought i’d made a mistake in timing while swimming my first 100, because i swam that first 100 about 7 seconds faster than i should’ve. only after that first pool test did it occur to me that there’s a business opportunity here.

i could not convince any pro, beyond an initial 4 or 5 who were well known to me, that the wetsuit was worth racing in. the only pros who had an open mind were monty, andrew macnaughton and brad kearns. back in 87, the latter 2 were arguably, over the first half of the season, the world’s fastest, and part of that i’m sure is they had the 2 newest pieces of tech before anyone else did: the scott bar and the QR wetsuit. all the other pros - and i mean all of them - were certain they’d swim slower in the wetsuit than out of it. i didn’t sweat it. for each of them, that notion lasted exactly 1 race.

there were 2 local pros, tom gallagher and mike fillipow, who were also early converts, simply because i need to photograph someone in my wetsuits and those 2 graciously agreed. i still have those photos; they’re on slowtwitch.

it never occurred to me to ask TriFed (it wasn’t called USA Triathlon back then) about legality. there was no way they’d make the wetsuit illegal. what i did do was place on myself the guardrail of 5mm max rubber thickness. i felt that if i kept the wetsuit to a reasonable thickness, and didn’t get greedy, that the federation would give me no problem.

i have tried to get a photo for years, from the bakersfield californian, from 1987, in may, the bakersfield triathlon, a photo taken from the water, looking back at the start, right as the gun went off, the pro field first, and behind them the first age group wave. the entire pro field is in wetsuits, pretty much all of those wetsuits mine, and just behind in the AG wave none of them in wetsuits, except 1 brazilian aspiring pro who i happened to know. that pic represented, to me, and still does now, the difference between those who actually know stuff, who need to know stuff, for whom science, technology, engineering, facts, are imperatives, versus those who’re oblivious, or who unwittingly suffer from their ignorance or obstinacy.

most of those pros in that image did not want to wear a wetsuit; but every one of them was faced with a reckoning with what is, rather than what ought to be. it’s a parable for decisions we’re all faced with in life; and the bifurcation between our behaviors when the shit gets brown versus our behaviors when we have (or think we have) the luxury of acting on caprice and whimsy. my editorializing is beyond the scope of your question. but you got it anyway :wink:

Well, the 1987 Bakersfield AGers simply did not know about wetsuits yet, that’s all. Obv they all learned in the next few years. Thanks very much for the history!!!