Recommendations on a buoyant short for non-wetsuit swims

Triathlon Forum
21

Wetsuits are allowed under 78 degrees not because of buoyancy, but in spite of it. That’s because the greater overriding concern (for Ironman) below that is temperature. So they accept the benefit that buoyancy adds because you can’t have one (thermal protection) without the other (buoyancy), but it is not the point of the rule. Its a trade off: Allow buoyancy because it provides insulation and they are more worried about temperature.

Over 78 degrees, they don’t have to accept the trade-off because temperature is no longer a concern, so they do not have to allow buoyancy either. Therefore, the sim short is prohibited.

My stance on this is that I love my sim shorts and use them almost all of the time in the pool, but that’s because I hardly ever do a non-wetsuit triathlon swim so developing better position and technique is simply unnecessary for me and I am better served working on other things. If I ever do decide to do a race where it is likely or even partially possible it will be non-wetsuit, I’ll work on that, but to me as I currently race, its just not a need.

22

Ok, thanks. Maybe I have the whole wetsuit philosophy wrong. Is it USAT’s thinking that the benefits of wearing a wetsuit in cold water outweighs the advantage of buoyancy, so when there’s no safety benefit (temp above 78) the buoyancy benefit should be nullified? I was thinking that if buoyancy was ok under 78, what would be the reason to eliminate it over 78.

23

My stance on this is that I love my sim shorts and use them almost all of the time in the pool, but that’s because I hardly ever do a non-wetsuit triathlon swim **so developing better position and technique is simply unnecessary for me **and I am better served working on other things. If I ever do decide to do a race where it is likely or even partially possible it will be non-wetsuit, I’ll work on that, but to me as I currently race, its just not a need.

I have a dozen snarky things I could say about this but let me just say that swimming properly, or at least making an effort to, would seem to be a core requirement for a race that includes long swims. You would be a better, faster swimmer with or without the floaty pants if your swim technique was up to par. Not to mention if you ever fell off a cruise ship (sans floaty pants) you might have a chance of making it to shore.

24

Ok, thanks. Maybe I have the whole wetsuit philosophy wrong. //

Yes you do. USAT does not care or factor in buoyancy when using them, they only care about water temperature, and thus have set there temperature numbers. Once again, if it is made of neoprene, it is a wetsuit, pants, shorts, tops, etc., all wetsuits…They had to draw a line somewhere, you may not like that line, but every rule has folks on both sides of it. They try and make them to fit the majority, and penciling in little differences and accept-ions, just complicates rules and makes them even harder to enforce.

I really dont see the problem here anyway, if it is speed one is looking at in warmer non wetsuit legal races, the swim skin is the best bang for the buck…

25

Hey, thanks for your concern, it’s appreciated. I also don’t work on a lot of skills that are specific to bike racing, i.e. very up and down surging types of efforts because, well, they aren’t necessary in non-drafting triathlon. Or track stands; don’t do a lot of those since I don’t compete in match sprints. Heck, I don’t even work on doing the water jump in my running because I don’t do the Steeplechase. And while I agree that maybe I would find a marginal benefit in doing all of the above as it applies to non-drafting long distance triathlon, there’s only so much time.

And generally I stay away from boats.

26

Here’s the thing: if your legs, feet and posterior are too low in the water it’s usually the result of what you are doing with your head, arms and shoulders. So there’s more going on with your swim than just your reliance on a buoyancy aid. Just because the wetsuit brought the stern up doesn’t mean you don’t have an issue, the bow is still pushing water.

Wouldn’t you want to knock 2-3 minutes off a 1.2 mile swim even if it was wetsuit legal? That would be worth a lot to me, more than impressing the lads at the coffee shop with my track stands.

But to each, his own…

27

I get that, and I don’t disagree that I could find some advantage if I really invested the time. But that’s the rub: How much advantage would I get and how much time would I have to invest? You say 2-3 minutes off a 70.3 swim; that’s not nothing, but its also not huge for a mid-packer like me. And the one thing I don’t have is an unlimited supply of time and energy to devote to this hobby. To me, it makes more sense to spend that time on the bike and run where I think my ROI is better. Improving one’s swim as you are suggesting is not a zero-cost proposition; there are trade-offs and in the grand scheme its a low priority issue for me because (as I said) I don’t see any non-wetsuit race swims in my future anytime soon. That being said, I don’t use this as an excuse to say I should be allowed to wear sim shorts in a race if it isn’t wetsuit legal. I just stay away from races that are likely to not be wetsuit legal to begin with. But I seek out bike courses with a lot of climbing because that suits my strength. Horses for courses, as they say.

I guess my more general point is that I don’t hear the bikers on here talking about how we should all be working on criterium racing skills because that will make us better triathlon cyclists. But swimmers seem really put out that many triathletes don’t really embrace the purity of swimming for its own sake as opposed to just a component of the overall sport we choose to do.

And I don’t do flip turns or butterfly either.

28

Having read through all of the posts so far I think there is a simple logic.

If you race Triathlon you need to race on a equal plane to everyone else.(level of gear notwithstanding)
If all can swim with a wetsuit, then it’s equal (level of gear notwithstanding) even if some chose not to swim in one.

If you need a flotation device to feel comfortable in the water, you are no longer racing on an equal footing with everyone else.
You are now at best a participant, no different than someone who has electric assist on their bike.

There are no races in which you can race alongside a hurdler, but without going over the hurdles.
Learning to swim, is a hurdle, if you don’t want to go over, don’t do that race.

29

Yep, use to be able to ask a question on slowtwitch and get credible and thoughtful responses. Now you get the snark and troll like comments. I like to use a wetsuit and have used them for full seasons. Now with water temps up I’m going to just wear shorts. I understand about overheating in a wetsuit as the reason for not wearing them above 78, it has nothing to do with buoyancy. So my question or confusion was about why at 78 degrees buoyancy now becomes an issue.

But feel free to post criticism, negative comments, and troll me. Slowtwitch probably should be like all the other sites.

I’m not sure I understand where you say “why at 78 degrees buoyancy now becomes an issue”. because buoyancy provided by same neoprene shorts is an advantage. Am I not understanding your question? or are you saying they should allow buoyancy shorts no matter the temperature?

No, I understand that the rule is no wetsuit over 78 degrees due to the potential of over heating. I was wondering if there were buoyant shorts available for when wetsuits were not allowed. It was pointed out to me that buoyant shorts would be illegal. So it left me wondering if when wetsuits are allowed buoyancy is ok, why is it that buoyant shorts (which wouldn’t cause overheating issues) are not approved. Yes, it would give an advantage, but so does a wetsuit. Some choose not to wear a wetsuit when temps allow. There may be something about buoyant shorts that I don’t understand. Are these type of shorts illegal in any race? I’m under the impression that under 78 you can wear anything?

You’re misunderstanding the rule. It isn’t that above 78 there’s an increased risk of overheating. It’s that below 78, some people may find them necessary to keep warm. Above that, they aren’t really required for warmth, so they aren’t allowed.

30

I get that, and I don’t disagree that I could find some advantage if I really invested the time. But that’s the rub: How much advantage would I get and how much time would I have to invest? You say 2-3 minutes off a 70.3 swim; that’s not nothing, but its also not huge for a mid-packer like me. And the one thing I don’t have is an unlimited supply of time and energy to devote to this hobby. To me, it makes more sense to spend that time on the bike and run where I think my ROI is better. Improving one’s swim as you are suggesting is not a zero-cost proposition; there are trade-offs and in the grand scheme its a low priority issue for me because (as I said) I don’t see any non-wetsuit race swims in my future anytime soon. That being said, I don’t use this as an excuse to say I should be allowed to wear sim shorts in a race if it isn’t wetsuit legal. I just stay away from races that are likely to not be wetsuit legal to begin with. But I seek out bike courses with a lot of climbing because that suits my strength. Horses for courses, as they say.

I guess my more general point is that I don’t hear the bikers on here talking about how we should all be working on criterium racing skills because that will make us better triathlon cyclists. But swimmers seem really put out that many triathletes don’t really embrace the purity of swimming for its own sake as opposed to just a component of the overall sport we choose to do.

And I don’t do flip turns or butterfly either.

It’s not just time Sluglas. It’s efficiency. To get your time with an inefficient technique probably cost you more on your subsequent bike and run because you had burned more matches in the swim than someone with the same time as you but better technique.

Flip turns and butterfly aren’t mandatory.

31

You are finding the advantage by wearing shorts IMO and Suttos. My coach trained under Sutto many years ago, is a very accomplished swimmer (first out the water Kona) and has me with a pool buoy most sessions. I have introduced the shorts rather than the buoy leading into Kona not racing in a wetsuit.
https://blog.trisutto.com/the-pull-buoy-debate-2/

32

Bingo. We have a winner. FWIW 78 is a higher cut off than other countries use.

78= 25.5C

ITU Elite Short - 20C, Long 22C
ITU AG Short- 22C, Long 24.5

The swimwear rules derive from swimming rules where you are not allowed to have any buoyancy.

33

Why can’t clydesdales use an e-bike?

34

My apologies, I thought I was on slow twitch, and not on let’s run.

OK, stepping back for a day, I concede that I was somewhat “letsrun-ish” and did not need to take that angle. So let me rewind.

Buoyancy is a by product of protecting us from cold. Buoyancy comes with neoprene which is used to keep us warm. When we don’t need the warmth, the buoyance goes with it. The proof that the sport is not trying to give us “free buoyancy” is when they banned wetsuits more than 5mm of thickness. It was felt that excessively thick wetsuits were not needed for warmth and were just diminishing the swim. In the purest sense, when its warm enough, the neoprene/warmth clothing goes. If you look at the rules, other than your neoprene of 5mm thickness, all buoyancy aids are expressly banned.

And I’ll admit even when I was actively racing triathlon I hated wetsuit swims because I just felt people did not want to actually learn how to do one of the sports. And was not a particularly good swimmer, but not bad either. I generally worked really hard to get a good body position so I could deal with no wetsuit swims because they are part of the sport.

Now that I race masters swimming as my primary sport, I guess I get even more “over reactive” when I see the general trend to not want to learn to swim. I get that the payback in time is invested in swimming is not great relative to bike-run, generally non technical sports.

However, what I will share is the single year I put in swimming 15-20K per week in 1993 had a permanent effect. I went from a 36 min 1.9K swimmer to more like 29-32min permanently for the rest of my tri life, and thats when I dialed back down to barely 200km of swimming per year (do the math, that’s barely 4000m per week). With bike and run, you can’t just invest a year doing 6 hrs per week of the sport and keep your gains forever…in swimming you can.

All those ex fat collegiate swimmers that we all hate who are 60 lbs overweight and kick our ass who we hate…guess what…they did their 50,000m per week for 8 years so they did their time. Most of us have not.

So I urge you to just put in a year of swimming and you’ll have the gains forever…you won’t need floaty pants.

35

When is someone going to market trishorts with an inflatable bladder sewn into the liner. A Small hand pump on the waistline. Pump up once you’re into the crowd, and let the air out as you exit the water. Walla, make a million bucks.

36

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

37

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.

38

So just because the water temp is above 78 degrees, buoyancy now becomes an unfair advantage? I agree with your recommendations, but the concept of not allowing buoyant shorts when wetsuits are perfectly fine (given temperatures considerations) is lost on me.

Wetsuits are permitted for safety due to temperature, not buoyancy, which is merely a side effect and an unfortunate one at that.

And frankly I would say that the 3:5 wetsuits are an unfair advantage at all times. Most other gear helps the better athlete more than the worse athlete, not those wetsuits, which help make up for someone being a rubbish swimmer.

39

Just because you only gain 2-3 min on a 1.2 mile swim doesn’t mean that’s all the time that you gain. If you are a stronger swimmer you leave the water feeling fresher, thus that translates to a faster bike and faster run at the same effort. If the swim was last then maybe your swim time will only effect your swim time. However, it’s first.

40

I’m not sure wetsuits actually have to be made out of buoyant material. Before I bought a tri wettie, I had a surfing wetsuit which was warn but made abso no diff in speed. I tested it out in the pool by swimming 2 x 500 yd at mod effort with 2 min rest in between, one in the surf wettie and one in just my Speedo; both 500s were within a second of each other. In contrast, when I got a tri wettie, hell, I could tell immediately, just from pushing off the wall, that I was riding higher in the water, kind of like a super pull buoy. I’ve often wondered if Dan had to bribe the USAT, or actually Tri Fed as it was then, to allow his new neoprene wettie. :slight_smile:

Surfing wetsuits are buoyant.

Well, perhaps my surfing wettie was ever so slightly buoyant, but if so, its buoyancy was essentially negligible compared to the triathlon wettie.