I bought a front ZIPP 808 and a Zipp disk about a year ago and have since done a sprint tri, HIM and IM (and done a few training rides on them).
Maybe it’s just me but I just can’t feel any difference or really notice that big of difference in my times (training or racing). In fact of the two HIM’s last year, my slower bike time was with the 808/disk set up.
Not looking for any magical answer, and I know that you have to have the engine to put with these things, but I’m just wondering if these “race wheels” are that cost just as much as a bike does are all they’re cracked up to be?
do you have trouble handling the bike with the race wheels on?
what are you training wheels?
its hard to conclude anything from comparing two races. I have a short loop I frequent and I usually can hold 1 gear faster when i have my race wheel/tire setup vs my training wheels.
I have nowhere near the experience many ST members have with wind-tunnel testing and race wheel setups, but I do have a general understanding of the physics behind cycling aerodynamics. With that said, you mentioned that your racing times with the Zipp race wheels are the same as with your training wheels - is that correct?
A rear disc and 808 front setup have a narrow window of effectiveness in terms of speed vs conditions. Depending on what speed you are maintaining, and taking into consideration wind changes and direction - it may be that conditions simply didn’t favor that wheel setup for those races. Ideally you would notice a significant difference with a set of training wheels in a complete vacuum vs the Zipps - but if you are maintaining 20 mph and there are crosswinds - a 5 mile stretch with no wind where you have a great split may be negated by the next 5 mile stretch where the wind picks up and your wheels experience more “friction.” Ultimately you can see how conditions would determine your overall time. The faster you ride, the less drag your wheels will experience from crosswinds (i.e. the wind vectors are averaged and ultimately point in the positive direction instead of getting stalled and pointing in the negative.)
A different set of wheels may be the answer if you are looking for better and more consistent times.
Winds? Fitness? Marketing hype? Or maybe windtunnels are irrelevant to the real world? Who really knows? There is a local sprint that I’ve done for ten years, usually on aero wheels. My fastest bike split time was on my 27mm Neuvation M28 Aero training wheels. Go figure.
Rhane, there does not exist a level of crosswind where an 808 and disc fails to outperform a standard wheel.
They would be closest in performance when there is no wind at all.
the only wheel that might be better is an H3 front if the rider is a bit slow or the crosswinds a bit harsh.
I have nowhere near the experience many ST members have with wind-tunnel testing and race wheel setups, but I do have a general understanding of the physics behind cycling aerodynamics. With that said, you mentioned that your racing times with the Zipp race wheels are the same as with your training wheels - is that correct?
A rear disc and 808 front setup have a narrow window of effectiveness in terms of speed vs conditions. Depending on what speed you are maintaining, and taking into consideration wind changes and direction - it may be that conditions simply didn’t favor that wheel setup for those races. Ideally you would notice a significant difference with a set of training wheels in a complete vacuum vs the Zipps - but if you are maintaining 20 mph and there are crosswinds - a 5 mile stretch with no wind where you have a great split may be negated by the next 5 mile stretch where the wind picks up and your wheels experience more “friction.” Ultimately you can see how conditions would determine your overall time. The faster you ride, the less drag your wheels will experience from crosswinds (i.e. the wind vectors are averaged and ultimately point in the positive direction instead of getting stalled and pointing in the negative.)
A different set of wheels may be the answer if you are looking for better and more consistent times.
Have you done the same course, at the same wattage, with the same wind conditions… one time with the race wheels, and one time with the training wheels? That’s the only way you can make a valid comparison between the two. Otherwise, its just speculation.
In all likelihood, the race wheels are faster, but remember, its not going to be a huge, dramatic effect. Likely, they’ll add somewhere around 3-4% to your speed. However, the amount of speed they add will depend on the course, wind conditions, air pressure in your tires, and your speed (i.e., the faster you go, the more benefit they offer).
do you have trouble handling the bike with the race wheels on?
what are you training wheels?
its hard to conclude anything from comparing two races. I have a short loop I frequent and I usually can hold 1 gear faster when i have my race wheel/tire setup vs my training wheels.
No trouble whatsoever handling.
Riding Am Classis 420’s with Maxxis (Detonator I believe) for training wheels.
I agree with the third statement and am going to give it another shot this weekend at IMNO to see how it goes. Just a little confusing and I’m always asking myself should I shift position or is there something I’m doing wrong and not getting the max power I can etc etc etc. the list goes on and on.
Really? I’m kind of surprised, granted I have no proof of this I would tend to think the rear disc and 808 front would get really pushy in crosswinds if your average speed was on the slower side…
Like I said, I’m pretty much just making educated guesses. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
Thats true, the crosswinds could slow you down if you were light/slow enough to make handling hard. But the actual drag is less.
Really? I’m kind of surprised, granted I have no proof of this I would tend to think the rear disc and 808 front would get really pushy in crosswinds if your average speed was on the slower side…
Like I said, I’m pretty much just making educated guesses. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
EVEN ZIPP CLAIMS THAT THEIR WHEELS WILL SAVE ONLY 59 SECONDS/HOUR. SO THAT MEANS THAT AT MOST YOU WILL SAVE BETWEEN 2.5 AND 3 MINUTES FOR A HIM. SO GIVEN DIFFERENT COURSES/NUTRITION/TAPERING/ ETC ETC ETC…IT WILL ONLY MAKE A SMALL DIFFERENCE. MUCH MORE TIME WILL BE SAVED/SPENT BECAUSE OF FACTORS OTHER THAN YOUR WHEELS…
EVEN ZIPP CLAIMS THAT THEIR WHEELS WILL SAVE ONLY 59 SECONDS/HOUR. SO THAT MEANS THAT AT MOST YOU WILL SAVE BETWEEN 2.5 AND 3 MINUTES FOR A HIM. SO GIVEN DIFFERENT COURSES/NUTRITION/TAPERING/ ETC ETC ETC…IT WILL ONLY MAKE A SMALL DIFFERENCE. MUCH MORE TIME WILL BE SAVED/SPENT BECAUSE OF FACTORS OTHER THAN YOUR WHEELS…
actually it says, per Zipp engineer John Fearncombe, “Fabian, the difference between the classics and a 404 at 10 degrees of wind angle is 63 seconds per hour” one could also assume that 808+disc would be faster than 404s in most if not all flat situations.