63 second is roughly 1.5 secs per kilometer at 40kph. I doubt most people can feel 1.5 secs per kilometer since that equates to about about a 1.5% difference in velocity at that speed.
That’s funny. I’ve rented race wheels twice and both times I felt really fast but wasn’t. Hrmm…
jackmott, got any explaination for that? Is it a yaw problem?
Do you use a power meter or HRM to gauge exertion? I’ve found it easy to “think” I’m going faster with the aero wheels, when in fact I’ve been running a lower HR than usual, and consequently actually riding slower.
As has been previously mentioned by another poster, you really need a decent data set to prove that the wheels are faster, by riding a local course several times with and without the aero wheels. I’ve ridden my local course so many times with and without the aero wheels I know that the disc is faster than the training wheels.
Mind you, some of the benefit of race wheels come from the mental aspect of having the bling on the bike. If you’re not convinced they make you faster, the wheels won’t be faster.
I agree with you.
For most folks these small advantages of very expensive race wheels are completely unimportant for their race results. In the big picture it doesn’t matter at all whether someone finishes in 567th or 571th position over all in a race. The small advantage of these expensive wheels only matters, when you are riding in front of a race where a minute might make the difference between podium or 4th place. ZIPP likes to make you believe that their wheels matter for slow folks as well, by selling the time savings their wheels have at low speeds, because if they could only sell their wheels to the fast guys they would have a very small market.
But if you have the money and you don’t care spending it, you can use it for some fancy aero stuff. It does make you faster with same power.
How fast a wheel “feels” is usually a poor judge. The minor speed benefit these wheels make is not nearly as noticeable as the change in rotational inertia. The race wheels are heavier and don’t accelerate as well, but keep momentum better; the aerodynamics are much harder to feel. That said, they are significantly faster than the training wheels.
questions and comments:
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What’s the course like? If it’s technical, with lots of hills and turns, the advantage of the 808/disc will be diminished because, as another poster said, there’s more to get moving and to carry up hills. The advantage comes more on flatter, straighter courses.
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Are you sure about your handling skills? An 808 on the front can be a handful for a smaller person (like me) in winds much above 15 to 20 mph. I’m very used to it, so it doesn’t phase me at all. But until I got used to it, I think the unnerving aspect of handling kept me from realizing the full advantage of the wheels.
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Closely related to 2. is the fact that, it’s in those very kind of conditions where the 808/disc kind of combination yields the most advantage versus more regular wheels. If it’s really rough, I might switch out the front wheel for something less deep. But I’d never race without the disc.
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I’m really with Jackmott on the attitude thing. I can’t understand how people can go to all the time and expense of this sport and then say things like, “it’s only a minute” or “it’s only three minutes.” I guarantee that the people who consistent podium … whether overall or in the age groups … and whether on a local, regional or national level, are people who dial in the training, the nutrition, AND the equipment. There are exceptions in cases of freaks of nature, but as a rule, what I just said is true.
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American Classic 420s aren’t exactly shabby wheels. You’re not exactly comparing race wheels to box rims there. Again, it makes me wonder what the course is like.
Aero wheels save what 20-30 seconds for most of your races. Not many people could free that speed differences. Also with the 808/Disk if you are wavering from crosswinds or worst coming out of your aero position, that will kill all the time savings that the wheel provide will be lost or your actually go slower.
I think someone else mentioned, but I’ll throw it out there as well…
There’s also a perception vs reality and it can really only be measured with HR/power. Perhaps you are slower, or the same speed, but maybe it takes slightly less effort. Maybe not enough to notice (yet?) but enough to see if you had the numbers. Has your run improved since running those wheels? Maybe you’re going the same speed at slightly less effort, but conserving more energy for the run…
First, get better tires. The Crr of pro race 3’s is pretty crappy, really dont understand why they get so much love round here. The pro 2 lights rolled well, maybe the Pro 3 lights will also. Regardless, get better tires. Second, ride them more so that you are really used to them. I do not think that my front 808 handles any worse than when I had a 404.
FWIW my old 404 tubbies with Tufo’s pumped to 180 always “felt” super fast. I am sure they were not actually not as “fast” as my 808’s with way better tires.
Thanks for all the feedback…a few things that I’m picking up on that make sense but didn’t really think about it.
I could be going the same speed as training wheels but putting out less energy and watts, which is quite possible, but I don’t have a power meter to measure.
The training wheels I’m using aren’t exactly stock wheels (Am Classic 420’s) so there may not be as a measurable difference as there would be with the regular stock wheels vs 808/disk.
Haven’t paid much attention on how the run feels with/without race wheels. Since my first HIM disaster (nutrition on the bike, what is nutrition on the bike), I’ve really gotten the calorie intake on the bike down a lot better so I feel much much better on my runs in races than I did for the first HIM I did.
I guess there are just way too many variables to try and correlate, but thanks to everyone for your comments/suggestions. Guessing a power meter may be the way to go in the future, if my wife allows me to spend one more dime on any gadgets!
How fast a wheel “feels” is usually a poor judge. The minor speed benefit these wheels make is not nearly as noticeable as the change in rotational inertia. The race wheels are heavier and don’t accelerate as well, but keep momentum better; the aerodynamics are much harder to feel. That said, they are significantly faster than the training wheels.
my race wheels are much fast and feel much much faster than my training wheels…course, that’s because my training rims are heavy, non-aero, and have crappy whees on them. my race wheels are zipp 909’s…which are prett aero, lighter than my anchor like training wheels, and have some low rolling resistance tires on them. 
//I’m really with Jackmott on the attitude thing. I can’t understand how people can go to all the time and expense of this sport and then say things like, “it’s only a minute” or “it’s only three minutes.” I guarantee that the people who consistent podium … whether overall or in the age groups … and whether on a local, regional or national level, are people who dial in the training, the nutrition, AND the equipment. There are exceptions in cases of freaks of nature, but as a rule, what I just said is true.//
You are a TT competitor. In competition, one should get every edge possible. In triathlons, those outside the top 50%, heck, maybe top 10%, are not competing – they are participating. For the these people, the majority of participants, triathlon is just a fun activity that helps them have fun maintaining fitness, but it is not their primary hobby or pursuit.
Triathlon need its “have fun and finish” participants. Given the logistics, local races couldn’t survive with the turnout that, for instance, TTs have.
Thus, you’ll find a different mentality here occasionally (overall this is a pretty competitive bunch) than you’ll find hanging out at a TT or road race.
Is this your race setup? If so, no wonder you feel slow:
Seriously, though, I train on my stock wheels that are the basic Bontrager 30mm deep rims (I think they are the Aero model, not the Aero or Race Light) that came with my original Trek.
When I ride, once in a while, on my race wheels I really do feel faster. I was riding a Hed Jet 60/90 combo with Michelin PR tires or a Renn rear. Except going up hills on with the Renn I generally felt faster all around. I now am riding a Zipp 606 tubular race setup and feel even faster on them.
What I’ve really noticed is the bike doesn’t top-out on the flats or gentle grades with the race wheels. For instance I have a ‘control’ loop that I try to ride once every few weeks just to gauge my fitness. On the flats or false flats and riding at a moderate (say Half Ironman effort) I might be holding 21-23 mph on the training wheels, depending on the grade. With the race wheels it seems like when you get to that 21-23 mph or more speed there is simply a little more left in the bike before it starts to become work to pick up the pace. It’s like there’s an extra gear that’s good for another couple of MPH.
Now, on a really windy day it can become more effort/work to keep the bike in a straight line as others have said so a deep race wheel setup or disc may start to hurt you. But that requires a lot of wind, IMHO.
You are a TT competitor. In competition, one should get every edge possible. In triathlons, those outside the top 50%, heck, maybe top 10%, are not competing – they are participating. For the these people, the majority of participants, triathlon is just a fun activity that helps them have fun maintaining fitness, but it is not their primary hobby or pursuit.
Triathlon need its “have fun and finish” participants.
You’re exactly right. I shouldn’t let my own obsession skew my view of those who have a more balanced life and just enjoy participating.
for what?
how fast were ya and how fast are ya normally?
what wheels did ya rent?
jackmott, got any explaination for that? Is it a yaw problem?
When I first got my wheelcover, I fell off the back of my bike the first time I stomped on the pedals…
I agree, but there is a set of those people, that IF they get their position dialed in, and spend maybe $500 on wheels/tires
would probably be competitive in local events
Triathlon need its “have fun and finish” participants. Given the logistics, local races couldn’t survive with the turnout that, for instance, TTs have.
Thus, you’ll find a different mentality here occasionally (overall this is a pretty competitive bunch) than you’ll find hanging out at a TT or road race.
Bad ass race wheels = look cooler
look cooler = think you’re faster
think you’re faster sometimes = go faster
even if you don’t go faster… still look cooler.
still look cooler = chicks
chicks = what triathlon’s all about.
… I don’t own bad ass race wheels. yet.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you commented on the quality of the American Classic 420s. They are more than a pound lighter than the Zipp clinchers you race on and are reasonably aero. If you are riding under 20 MPH on a hilly course with light winds the 420s might be a better choice and in most cases, you probably will not see huge gains over them from race wheels.
You could also look at other factors in your race bike setup to see if you are doing anything else special for the races that might be working against you. Here are a few I have seen:
Overly tight frame and/or brake tolerances that cause the wheel to rub under lateral stress (like climbing).
Overly-tight quick releases that cause excess hub friction.Carrying excessive amounts of water. (I’ve seen plenty of guys racing with 4 water bottles in races with aid stations every 10 miles.) Poor tire choice including tires with excessive rolling resistance and tires with defects, such as tubular tires that are installed out of true or with humps in them.
Poor tapering protocol.
Nerves, poor nutrition, fear of success, zillions of others.-Marc
I know that new gear is cool and I always want to get it, but for the most part unless you are at a super top level and the longer the race…the gear just doesn’t make a HUGE difference, as long as your fit is comfortable and you riding efficiently, wheels and ‘stuff’ will help you but won’t ever make a big noticeable difference in your racing. I’ve found that I can almost maintain the same speed in my training set up (training wheels and no aero helmet or tight fitting race suit) that I can racing…I might be able to go 1/2 mph faster over a 40k with all my race gear but that’s at over 25mph…where I know the wind counts even more against you. I don’t want to say that gear is all mental, but I think it’s actually a big part of it. I know when I put my race kit on and lock my race wheels in place I definately ‘feel’ faster, but I think that’s emotional more than measurable change. Anyway, don’t fret and enjoy your new wheels, but remember speed is always in the training, not the gear.