Use this technology to distance people when the next pandemic hits and you´ve got an investor right here 
Good luck anyways!
T
Picking up another here from FuzzyRunner:
Yes each device has it’s own ID which is linked to the athlete race number. and there’s a front a rear for each. Ie the ID’s might be for example Front458 & Rear458.
The ‘moment of pass’ is something that people don’t always consider when thinking about how tackle drafting. It’s easy to conceptualise something that measures the distance when you are at the entry to the draft zone, but just as important is defining the moment one rider moves in front of another. Because as soon as you enter from behind that 25sec timer starts, and we need to know when your 25secs is up. Beyond that you’re now accumulating ‘illegal time’, or you’ve cleanly completed a pass.
By having 2 devices per athlete, so 4 devices involved in the pass situation, we can triangulate between them and know with good certainty when a pass has been completed or not.
So in the situation where one pulls up beside another, as it works today, once your front wheel goes in front of theirs, it’s now their responsibility to drop back. The overtaking rider’s light then lights up, for the overtaken rider to observe. If they don’t drop back within the 25 secs, anything over that counts as illegal time against them. If they actually challenge a rider that has gone past them after a pass has been made, then that’ll be sent back to the referees as well, and it’s called out in the same way a yo-yo at the back end of the zone is dealt with. It’s more rarely done than the yo-yo’s at the back, unless of course you get fast ladies riding with age group men…
RE GPS, we do have GPS in the devices, but the drafting distance measurements aren’t reliant on it. We do have pre-mapped areas of the course that drafting wouldn’t be reported from. Those areas are pre-determined by the event team / head official with our team and then mapped into the system to not report from those zones. The athletes aren’t always explicitly notified of where those zones are, as they might turn it into a no holds barred drafting section, which we don’t want as that then needs to be broken up at the end of the section. The athletes will still have the light indications and should try to avoid drafting, but the referees can rest assured that they will not continually be getting alerted to and drawn to these hotspots, that they don’t actually want to waste their time policing. Commonly the first few km of the bike (more for some races), steep hills, 180s, through narrow sections where they’ve coned off a narrow lane etc.
If you stop at an aid station or something like that bunched with other riders, that’s not reported. Actually once a rider drops below 10km/hr currently we won’t report anything. That’s one of the parameters we can adjust and are looking to refine through upcoming testing in larger groups of riders and at races.
Cheers!
Hi James,
How does the device make the distinction between a rider being passed and dropping back out of the draft zone, and a rider going into the draft zone and then dropping out of it (Does each device have its own #ID)? Does the front/rear devices talk to each other so there is acknowledgment of a pass instead of a rider pulling up beside another but never making the pass?
I assume there isn’t a GPS receiver in these devices. Is there a way to disable the devices in certain locations along the course? I’m thinking during aid station stops, when I’m for sure “drafting” people through the stop but there isn’t a safe way not to. Or people that are actually stopped at the aid stations and their receivers in the line of sight of another bike also stopped. Or at the very beginning/end of the ride where congestion is unavoidable.
I like what you’re doing and engaging in forums like this is great free market research for you.
How would you propose this works on a bike like the Shiv Tri Disc? Specifically if someone is running the rear hydration? There is hardly anything else to latch onto.
Good to see that referee discretion is still needed. Races like Tauranga half I’m sure the pros would be fine but i dont think its anywhere near practical to expect all the AG athletes to split out. It was horrendous riding through trying to follow the rules.
Thanks Cookies
I’ve actually worked at Specialized for my day job for the last 9yrs…and Dylan has been sponsored and riding the Shiv for the last few years, so yes we’ve had some hands-on time with the current Shiv! I was at HQ in Morgan Hill when we were first shown a slide of the Shiv 2-3yrs ago. It was a real facepalm moment when I saw it and started thinking about how to mount RaceRanger to the rear!
Currently the rear devices will work attached to the trailing edge of the Shiv hydration system, just like the back of a seat post or seat-tube. They’ve just got to be positioned no lower than the height of the top of the rear tyre, so they can be seen by the rider behind.
The zip ties need to be quite long / a couple joined together to get around that huge Shiv hydration unit. I agree that is going to be at the ugly end of the spectrum… We have some ideas around making own longer zip ties with rounded edges, to make them appear more aero, and not have to join them end on end. We looked at rubber bands and such like a lot of bike lights have these days, but you can’t beat zip ties for holding something solidly and securely in a fixed position.
There are actually two pieces to the rear device currently, a hard rubber bike mount piece that touches the bike - aided by some 3M double sided tape, and then the actual device. The device slides down into the mount, and then the zip ties go through slots in the device to secure it all together.
Down the line, that slot in the mount piece could potentially be integrated into bike designs, negating the need for zip ties. There could be a dummy plastic piece that sits in the slot normally to maintain a flush / sleek aero profile, which can be removed for race week.
As I say RaceRanger isn’t something that is 100% ready for full use tomorrow. We have some time to refine it and also for athletes and events to make any adjustments required. The hard work to this point has been to make the tech work. Things like the UX of the lights, refining the shape of the devices to be smaller and have some aero considerations, universal mounting etc - we see these as easier, yet still important parts of the picture to be figured out.
Tauranga - we’ll hopefully be there in January - Covid willing… to test a small number of units with an MVP ‘lights only’ functionality. They won’t be relied on by the athletes or officials, we’ll just be observing and mainly getting feedback on the 16/14/12m thresholds, the light colours and patterns, and getting hands-on with the mounting issues mentioned above.
For those over-crowded situations, as long as you aren’t actively sitting in a pack, you shouldn’t be getting called out to the referees.
With the light indications it should make it easier to know when you are going over the allowed 25 secs passing / drop back time.
And of course the referees have the same discretion as they do currently at the end of the day.
So if it’s a race / course crowding issue they won’t be suddenly slapping everyone with penalties more than they currently do, just because they’re using RaceRanger. But they will be more effective at catching the ones who are the worst offenders though.
Did you race in 2021 on the new course? We’ve heard it’s wider with the motorway sections?
Cheers!
I like what you’re doing and engaging in forums like this is great free market research for you.
How would you propose this works on a bike like the Shiv Tri Disc? Specifically if someone is running the rear hydration? There is hardly anything else to latch onto.
Good to see that referee discretion is still needed. Races like Tauranga half I’m sure the pros would be fine but i dont think its anywhere near practical to expect all the AG athletes to split out. It was horrendous riding through trying to follow the rules.
Sounds like you have a lot of fun product development ahead of you!
Yep I did the aqua bike this year so had the joy of three laps on the new course instead of two for people doing the half. We were off earlier than everyone else as well so by the time we were on second and third lap there were a lot of people on the bike course.
One side of the expressway was shut down and it was two lanes so a lane each direction, I hope my memory isn’t failing me.
It was quite a windy day so racing wasn’t as fast as it could’ve been. The motorway part way actually pretty boring but in saying that another year on the Taupo course is looking pretty boring to me as well.
Thanks Cookies
I’ve actually worked at Specialized for my day job for the last 9yrs…and Dylan has been sponsored and riding the Shiv for the last few years, so yes we’ve had some hands-on time with the current Shiv! I was at HQ in Morgan Hill when we were first shown a slide of the Shiv 2-3yrs ago. It was a real facepalm moment when I saw it and started thinking about how to mount RaceRanger to the rear!
Tauranga - we’ll hopefully be there in January - Covid willing… to test a small number of units with an MVP ‘lights only’ functionality. They won’t be relied on by the athletes or officials, we’ll just be observing and mainly getting feedback on the 16/14/12m thresholds, the light colours and patterns, and getting hands-on with the mounting issues mentioned above.
For those over-crowded situations, as long as you aren’t actively sitting in a pack, you shouldn’t be getting called out to the referees.
With the light indications it should make it easier to know when you are going over the allowed 25 secs passing / drop back time.
And of course the referees have the same discretion as they do currently at the end of the day.
So if it’s a race / course crowding issue they won’t be suddenly slapping everyone with penalties more than they currently do, just because they’re using RaceRanger. But they will be more effective at catching the ones who are the worst offenders though.
Did you race in 2021 on the new course? We’ve heard it’s wider with the motorway sections?
Cheers!
I like what you’re doing and engaging in forums like this is great free market research for you.
How would you propose this works on a bike like the Shiv Tri Disc? Specifically if someone is running the rear hydration? There is hardly anything else to latch onto.
Good to see that referee discretion is still needed. Races like Tauranga half I’m sure the pros would be fine but i dont think its anywhere near practical to expect all the AG athletes to split out. It was horrendous riding through trying to follow the rules.
I raced Tauranga last year on the new course too. New motorway was blazing fast despite the wind but the draft packs were insane! I understand they may space the waves more this year to try and fix.
I was in the 2nd wave (for >45M) and we caught up to the middle of the first wave on the first lap on the motorway. My first question is how RaceRanger works for this situation - I was trying to stay legal distance to a rider in front as we caught and passed riders from wave ahead, but some of them would see the space I was leaving and move out and “slot in”. So i’m suddenly in their draft zone and need to overtake or drop back when they are the one infringing?
2nd question - do you regret using a cross bike on the sharp scoria of Rangitoto at The Dual off road Tri? Think I saw you with a long walk back to base?
I raced Tauranga last year on the new course too. New motorway was blazing fast despite the wind but the draft packs were insane! I understand they may space the waves more this year to try and fix.
I was in the 2nd wave (for >45M) and we caught up to the middle of the first wave on the first lap on the motorway. My first question is how RaceRanger works for this situation - I was trying to stay legal distance to a rider in front as we caught and passed riders from wave ahead, but some of them would see the space I was leaving and move out and “slot in”. So i’m suddenly in their draft zone and need to overtake or drop back when they are the one infringing?
2nd question - do you regret using a cross bike on the sharp scoria of Rangitoto at The Dual off road Tri? Think I saw you with a long walk back to base?
First Question - In that situation you described, you’d likely still be able to overtake that rider within 25secs, and therefore usually not fall foul of the rules. But agreed - they should be the ones being pinged for their illegal move. It’s one of those situations where you often do just need to put in a surge to go past someone, which can be annoying… If a referee saw it, they wouldn’t always pick or have seen the person pull out, they might just see you in their zone. So it’s one of those moments where as an athlete trying to do the right thing, you get this nervous moment wondering what the referee saw and what they are thinking. Will I get a penalty here or will the ‘slotter’?
That move could probably also be classed as a blocking infringement depending on the rule book the race is following. Our current software doesn’t have the logic to identify and report this situation yet, but it’s definitely something that’s on our roadmap, particularly for the pros. Eg currently if a pro is sitting at the legal limit (as guessed by the athlete and the referee), other athletes can’t slot into the gap ahead of them.
When we have RaceRanger, as it’s currently configured, the following rider will either be in the draft zone or not. Binary - either blue lights or red lights. So if they are red, then is that leaving the door open for a 3rd rider to a slot in? Perhaps the slotting rule will need to be adjusted for pros so that if the 2nd rider is holding the buffer zone ie 12-14m signal, then a 3rd rider can’t slot in, but must continue on past. And if they do slot in, then that activity is called out to the referees just like the yo-yo activity currently is.
So until we get that written into the logic, if an athlete just does their best to avoid drafting they should be fine, and the light signals will help guide them, so that they do have a good chance to avoid it. Only the worst offenders who are consistently drafting will be presented to the referees and called out.
Secondly - absolutely not! I was creaming it on that cross bike with no training until I got the flats, and it was way more fun than rolling around on an MTB 
I would say tech like ‘RaceRanger’ is definitely needed to keep the pro races and the top age grouper’s (like the Kona qualifiers), all honest. For all the rest of us just trying to finish the race or do it for some kind of enjoyment, then draftbuster tech is not so important.
Also useful for the team cyclists as quite a few of them are pros or aspiring pros also.
The most important thing will be to get race organisers on board.
As far as a money making venture, my guess is if you can create some super hardware and software, then this sort of technology would be taken up by car companies (for example), as safety features.
Have tried a few start ups myself, so understand the challenges, but nothing compared to what you guys have already achieved with this. Hope it turns out great and has some cross purpose uses also.
This sort of thing could also be used to make all sorts of road biking safer. You could have it set up so car drivers know there are cyclist around the corner. I prefer to just ride off road on say a mountain bike cos the roads are just too dangerous in many places these days.
Hello Slowtwitch,
I’ve created a profile here to engage in discussion and to try and respond to any questions you may have.
Looking forward to hearing from you, but please excuse me, I must now go to sleep. Back in 4-5hrs.
Cheers
James Elvery
CEO & Co-Founder
RaceRanger
World Tri announced that Race Ranger will be used for the elite fields at LD Worlds in Ibiza (not sure if the PTO race the day before will use them or not). https://www.triathlon.org/news/article/raceranger_to_be_used_by_elite_athletes_at_the_ibiza_world_triathlon_long_d
Race ranger anxiety cause DQ?
Race ranger anxiety cause DQ?https://www.instagram.com/...mUiCThQ/?img_index=1With the context that Matthews had been ‘done’ riding in a threesome (with MSN and McCauley) in IM Texas only a month before, and so had Stage Nielsen by refs who seemed to be on a journey to understanding how to use Race Ranger sensibly (she asserted).
Hamburg DQ is a significant impact on Matthews’ IM Pro Series campaign: would’ve been her second IM, but Hering might well have beaten her with that 2:52 off the bike.
On here the Race Ranger topics are spread around. So reviving this.
Quite excellent interview (pod no pictures) for anyone interested. For me, lots of new info and insights into the future and how it can be used to help the motorefs and commentary.
Mk 2 - made 300 and 288 still working.
Now manufacturing 900 of the Mk3s - use by amateurs in view.
gps element tracks everything (not being used yet).
Broadcasting possibilities.
"James Elvery is one half of the team behind Race Ranger, the biking draft zone innovation shaking up racing and bringing tech into the notoriously murky waters of draft monitoring.
“From PTO to Para Triathlon, Ironman to Paris 2024, the three-light system has helped clarify racing for athletes, officials and organising and Race Ranger now has set its sights and lights on an Age Group race near you. Eight years on from the first conversations with World Triathlon and at the centre of a major shift of Ironman rules into line with PTO, James Elvery reveals the labour of love and endless hours that have brought his vision into reality.”