Trans women should not be competing against biological females in sport. There is a physiological difference between male and female. Biology should be taught in public schools so people can understand the difference.
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Hopefully it’s better now but when I was in high school we didn’t even talk about evolutionary theory, you know the entire basis of the modern understanding of biology, so getting into the weeds to talk about the differences in sports performance ability of males and females seems like a big ask.
Men shouldn’t compete against women in sports. It’s that simple.
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But isn’t the whole issue that transgender don’t consider themselves “men”, they see themselves as a woman regardless of what nature has given them or not (I have no problem with that, you do you, whatever that is). So thus you get the “inclusion” issue of now it’s infringing on their rights even though it’s very clear that that transgender athlete is infringing on “fair play” of the biological woman. So it’s sorta always creates an “gotcha” moment. Again it’s sorta wild to me that the 1st reaction to some on this board was “no one wins” and I’m like wait “this is a win for biological women”…that should absolutely be praised. But again if you bring that up your suddenly creeping into getting cancelled territory of you not caring about transgender women; and it’s the opposite; I care about fair play in sport than I do about individual “feelings”. This type of commentary is one of the biggest issues I hate “anonymous” users mixed in with people in the industry identifying themselves. You can suddenly quote tweet 1 specific segment of a post or comment and put them on blast all behind the comfort of zero accountability of the anonymous user (I remember Dan long ago suggested to anyone in the industry to id themselves as it gives better clarity/assurance than just “randoms”; which makes sense from a content standpoint…and that was back when you could put signatures if you wanted a “user name” etc- Desert Dude- everyone knows that was Brian Stover; “slowman” was Dan)
Which again I think it’s why WT’s solution to simply break down what is a woman vs the now societal acceptance of what a woman is is the answer. It’s now not just men vs women; it’s now biological at birth that defines what a woman in sport is. So that transgender athlete can still be a woman and be who they are; they just cant compete basically in the same category as other “women”. I’m still trying to understand how that is anti-inclusive.
So again within sport it should be ok to choose fair play over every single person’s individual feelings on a matter, cus again “inclusion” is something that can never be solved. When the end user gets to decide what is or isn’t inclusive, your never going to fulfill that. So in sport that is a pretty hard pathway to solve, so why not solve the likely easier “fair play” issue that we all have accepted that man and woman simply aren’t the same? We’ve accepted that as basic science for a zillion years and yet when we now sorta firm up that belief/understanding it’s suddenly bad? Make that make sense?
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Quote: “Men shouldn’t compete against women in sports. It’s that simple.”
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Completely not the same thing, but you know that.
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If I have learned anything about the internet and this particular subject, it’s that the people who bring out the “it’s simple biology” argument, took their last biology class back in high school.
Because you are ignoring the rest of the things that are happening to transgender people. It’s not just about spots, they are also being targeted at other aspects of life, things as simple as where they take a shit. We even have people in Congress using slur words to refer to this community.
Heck, you even have a few posters in this very thread refer to trans women as men. But you chose to ignore that.
Except it is just about sports when I’m specifically talking about this particular case. So your trying to inject “emotions” as a discussion point is something that probaly is more black and white than some want it to be. Sports can actually probaly be one of the few arenas that you can say “no” to someone and be ok right?
And no I’m not going to equate this to “shut up and dribble”, but what I’m going to say is that if a sport makes rules that you don’t necessarily agree with, doesn’t automatically make it anti inclusive. So again within sport I think it’s far better to go with “fair play” than inclusion, because inclusion is far too difficult a nut to crack. Fair play isn’t really all that difficult to create rules with boundaries.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I think Ryan already stated the rules for this forum on the very subject of how people should be identiifed and called out that behavior if I’m not mistaken.
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Of course. And I already stated that I think this was the right call, for now.
So your trying to inject “emotions” as a discussion point is something that probaly is more black and white than some want it to be.
I posit that YOU are trying to extract emotions from the conversation, and are purposely trying to make it black and white. These are real people, and they are getting hammered in all aspects of their life, and saying NO to them in sports, without acknowledging and offering our support in the other fronts they are fighting I think is an injustice.
I admittedly take my own amateur sport’s way toooo seriously!?
It occurred to me that this has perhaps led me astray…
Armchair liberals simply don’t take sports seriously at all.
Why not let people choose their own gender?
It’s just physical recreation, right?
Spectators take their dumb opinions and advertising spiel tooo seriously.
Maybe “elite amateur” should - JUST be self-indentied intense people in their own private intense clubs, with their own intense rules?
And college level “professional sports” should be PROFITABLE!
NOT just “revenue generating”
NOT just part of the “college experience.”
Mayybe this should start at highschool.
Highschool football is a a MASSIVE revenue suck,!
How about the European system-
Lighly limited and selective publicly funded pre-pre-professional high school sports.
What I think I’m trying to extract is just because you are told NO in one arena, doesn’t mean someone can’t put their arm around them in another arena and support them. If we have to preface every statement on any social injustice when talking spot, we’ll have more prefaces than we will fair play talking points. So just because someone is adament that they are pro “fair play” doens’t automatically make them not care about the overall injustices of said people. I think we should be able to separate the viewpoints, in that it’s not an automatic injustice if I don’t preface my words every time I talk about fair play in a sport.
So I think within sport I think it’s ok to sorta want black and white within rules. That’s generally the whole point of rules in sport. It’s usually and yes or no answer, the more “gray” causes more issues *generally. And again just because one wants that specifics doesn’t automatically mean they aren’t overall in support of said cause for said group of people. I’m against this idea that you have to be in full support or else seemingly that your suggesting be the case.
So when you talk about the “injustices” that a group are feeling, within sport the biological female is also going through some “injustices” when they are put to compete against a transgender female. So it’s put a lot of biological females in situation that they may not be comfortable in, yet we made them do it to solve the injustices of other people. Yet if you brought that up, your seemingly the asshole cus you don’t care about the other people. So back to the riddle, you’ll basically never solve “injustices” because with this ruling all we have done is trade one group’s injustice (biological women) for another group’s injustices now (trangender community).
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The invasion of female only spaces by non-females is a problem.
Public areas are moving to sex-neutral restrooms rather than having a women or men’s restrooms.
But for the point of the discussion, a significant part of the problem is that there are people who “identify as” but have not gone through surgical removal of the male organs that want to go into women only spaces. They go there with one intent. The events are not isolated.
This is about fairness for females and sport is discriminatory. That’s why there is a separation between women and men. That’s why in some sports there are weight classes.
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Just came across this article about the IOC possibly following the same path for the LA Olympics.
https://www.wsj.com/sports/olympics/olympics-ioc-women-sports-rules-5ba22370?mod=hp_major_pos2
So what is the “answer”. We seemingly mostly agree that biological females deserve their own category. We also live in a world that transgender athletes don’t really consider themselves transgender. They see themselves as whoever they want to identify as regardless of outside appearances or biology. So is it fair or inclusive to give each segment their own category to race in or is that demeaning and isolating?
What you don’t seem to acknowledge is that sports are one of the best conduits for people to socialize, meet other people, make friends, have fun, etc. You want to deny trans people these benefits? The problem is that you all talk about sport in general, when a the social and amateur level it should not be a problem. Only at the elite levels of sport should this be ‘legislated’, have rules around to ensure fairness.
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What utopia world do you live in? I have lived in a world that for about 50 years now we have celebraated/wanted women to have their own rights and ability in sport. So this idea that categories shouldn’t matter at the amateur level, that’s not a sport world I’m familiar with. Again if you want to be “inclusive” you basically remove all categories and make it 1 race. But of course we don’t want that because of the obvious disadvantages in most sports female vs males have. Suddenly that same logic isn’t applied when we talk about transgender athletes vs biological female athletes?
And please be careful what you are suggesting I’m saying I want to deny anyone.
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I rest my case. If the forum had no rules I know what kind of language you’d be using.
It’s clear the point went completely over your head. Outside appearances and biological parts in our society now don’t automatically allow society to know what said person is or wants to be. So an male looking person to the outside world may look and have all the parts of a male, yet she wants to be identified as a female. Again more power to that person, everyone do you.
So thus a person identiifes with however THEY want to be, not what society says they be regardless of their actual appearance or biological parts. So “we” as a society say they are transgender because they were born one way but want to be something else. But they don’t view themselves as a “transgender” person, that’s just a made up societal term basically. They see and feel like the gender they want to be again, sometimes at the opposite of what we think they look like or have as biological parts. Thus “transgender” is probaly an negative stigma but then again when you talk about “fair play” you then must sorta identify the differences between biological born female and a female that wasn’t born as a female at birth. So whether you use the term transgender or simply use biological only terms, there is still going to be an “inclusion” issue when you are talking about fair play.
So you clearly are reading way too much into things, and for that I feel sorry for you.
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I don’t need your compassion, but the transgender athletes you speak against surely do, but I don’t think you are capable of offering compassion if it’s not in the form of pettiness.
I’ve followed you for quite a few years, and I admire you as a knowledgeable coach, but I think that admiration ends today.
Good talk. I’m done.