And that’s fine, cus I’m not speaking against anyone, even if you suggest I am. We are having what is likely a tough conversation on things, maybe we agree on some things, maybe we don’t on other things. I’m wanting to have conversations on pieces like this because sport is a segment where we are sorta merging “fair play” and “inclusion”. It’s sorta obvious that that’s going to be a hard line to find in the sand, and then of course if your anywhere close to the other side your suddenly "against’ others. That’s the part where then it’s like, you wanna know why no one wants to have real conversations like this is because ultimately "judgement’ falls on people who have differing opinions. You judged me to the point that you said if there were no forum rules I’d be using other terms, like wtf is that.
So if I lost an admirer, so be it. That’s too bad we can’t have tough convesation and then still “be friends” afterwards so to speak. Because again I don’t care what so ever what you or anyone does or wants to be. If that makes you happy, and you are productive in society, more power to you. I’m not for people purposely being discriminated against but I am for sports to have “fair play” rules and regulations. So if you think that means I’m “against” people, then that’s on you.
Sports need rules. We know what biology shows. 100% behind everything Brooks has stated. You can be for rules in sports and still have compassion for confused individuals.
Showering arrangements aren’t related to competing / participating in sport. So if this comment is about general ‘how should TG community exist alongside non-TG’ then it’s a lavender room discussion
It’s a shorter connection from that question to one that is around the totally independent (but equally value-less) discussion on sexual orientation determining who should be sharing showers.
I’m still waiting to find out if I should be outraged that I may now be knocked back from my 98th place male finish to a 101st finish in the open due to being beaten by three FtM TG athletes on top of the three MtF.
Please note, I’m not suggesting anyone is confused if they want to be whoever they want to be and if that means they change genders, so be it. To my point that TT seemed mostly bothered by. The term society puts on transgender people isn’t likely how they actually feel. A man with biological male parts if he feels/thinks/want to be a woman, guess what he sees/views himself as a woman (whether he go through biological changes or not and he then suddenly becomes a she for proper context). Not as a “transgender woman” that we then put on that person. If you do right by people and treat others with respect, I don’t care who you are or aren’t. But I also do care about sport in the general sense that I’m not for “anything goes, hey this is just for fun and socialize, stop being a rule nazi”. You can have that in a bunch of other settings, I think it’s ok for sport to have rules and guidelines and we all be ok and it not turn into you “hate” people for wanting that.
So if you all are basically saying that sport shouldn’t bring in “transgender” terminology into sport. I’ll agree with that. Which is why I think WT basically defining the female category at the basic biological level solves it. They aren’t saying you can’t be a female, they are simply saying if you want to race in that category you have a specific biological criteria to meet. If you don’t meet that, you can be whoever the hell you want to be (everyone is welcome to race), you just don’t race in that particular category unless ypu meet specific criteria.
They made the comment that their kids don’t care about trans students. I was just querying if that included them using the same shower/locker rooms. I think many people don’t care if someone wants to identify as a different gender, until it affects them or their comfort level.
Duncan, your points are good points. They are hard to answer for most people. They are also the somewhat of the sophistry that caused confusion to grab hold of society on this issue and allow it to get traction until people started seeing just a glimpse of the handful of real-world ramifications. And then we have the inevitable pushback.
This thread is just a rehashing of the same old without adding much new to discuss regarding the rule changes. If you’re a true believer in the new ways of thinking about gender, good luck with that. And likewise the rest of the world will muddle on and do their best, sometimes being offensive without intending, sometimes being jerks and, sometimes being as kind as reasonably possible and still be accused of being offensive.
I question your statement about younger people accepting transgender. Do they have a voice to object? Certainly not in High School or College. If you speak out in University you get kicked off sports teams and receive undue criticism. My friends daughter was terrified of changing in front of someone with a penis at the age of 13. The schools response was to put her in detention. The reality was all of the girls were terrified but couldn’t speak out.
There is a British journalist who keyed a phrase recently (I don’t necessarily agree with it but it is a good indication of where society is at).
A transgender person tried to ambush her. Her response was “you can be whatever you want in your world, good for you I hope you are happy, but in my world there are two genders male and female. You cannot force your non scientific ideologies on me, the same that I can’t force mine on you”.
And I think that is a very good explanation. I am generally a live and let live kind of person but I have beliefs and to tell me I am a bigot or phobic in some way because my belief is different to someone else’s doesn’t sit well with me.
Transgender does not belong in womens sport. In 50/60 years womens sport won’t exist if we allow it. Sorry but science is science.
Where my daughter goes to college they’ve addressed the bathroom issue by having three types of bathrooms/showers; male, female and gender neutral. There’s some sort of process you have to go through to get permission to use the gender neutral ones.
I can ask my daughter the next time I see her. In high school, her soccer team was pretty sure another team had a transgender female, but nobody cared or at least not enough to make an issue out of it, since she wasn’t all that good (fast, but that was about it) and the team wasn’t any threat to beat them.
Am I reading this wrong, or are you saying that because transgender people have problems in society they should be given a free pass in sports to make up for that?
And this is the guy who has been crucifying his countryman Tomas Rodriguez for the doping conviction ad nauseum in the other thread. But here he is preaching about “compassion” towards illegal immigrants and then also demonizing Brooks for disagreeing with him on a controversial topic. Oh the hypocrisy.
Wait, so being a transgender person is the same as doping to win races?
Make it make sense.
This is my point, you guys read transgender and you immediately think: cheaters, pedos, rapist, voyeurists, etc.
And I already expressed it several times that I think that this was the right call, but I am not happy about celebrating this as a victory because of the other actions that this current administration is taking.
And I am not demonizing Brooks, but I can read between the lines.
You have terrible reading comprehension skills then. The whole point is that within sport context, transgender can bring in “fair play” issues for actual biological women. (No I’m not calling them “cheaters” as I said that person identifies as a woman as much as the biological woman; but within sport and fair play they are not the “same”)
Talk about wanting to turn it into “victimizing” (if you can read between the lines, I guess I can with you too). Far out dude.
I’m not familiar with the numbers on doping, but I’m assuming the gains are more marginal than the difference between elite male and elite female?
Could LCB dope for a year and out bike Laidlow?
The thing with transgender is you don’t have to show intent for the action to be illegal. Whether man claims he is transgender to get an edge in competition or sincerely feels gender disphoria is irrelevant to the violation of the rule. Just as if someone decides to start taking EPO because they feel their kidneys need a little extra boost.
Now someone might say that’s why we have TUEs, to which I’ll point to many pros claiming that TUEs are abused for competitive advantage and that there is a viable option for a transgender to compete in their biological category (combined with the fact that not competing in their biological category will not cause serious injury or death). So the rationale for TUE wouldn’t apply to transgender.
Someone earlier in the thread is talking about trans women in bathrooms. Another person brought up a comparison to a doper. And If it weren’t for the forum’s rules, you and I know where this conversation would’ve gone.
Talk about wanting to turn it into “victimizing”
That’s the core of my argument, you dingus. They ARE victims.
I’m going to say it one more time:
I think this is the right call, I guess for now transgender women should have their own category. It saddens me though that this is happening at the same time as they’re getting attacked on all fronts by this current administration. Just very recently a congresswoman called them a slur inside the Congress building, in front of cameras. It is very concerning that the power of the government is coming this strong against a group of marginalized people, and even though this may be best for our sport, we should offer them support in other aspects of their lives.
Wait so I’ve been pretty consistent in every post I’ve made about this topic, yet you have the gumption to say if it weren’t for forum rules you know where it would go? Based on what? Your then bringing in other people’s thoughts into my posts? Like holy shit bro.
2ndly- they aren’t victims in THIS case. Being told no, or being not put in the category not with biological females which you actually agree with does not then make them victims. Full stop. It’s like your wanting to merge it all under 1 talking point, which isn’t what I’m trying to say or do at all, yet I’m the bad guy or you suddenly know how I truly feel over the fucking internet…for fuck sake dude. Again I’m all for people living a way that makes them happy and is contributing to a good society.