A million posts on wheels here on ST and only a couple mentions of the Cosmic Carbones. How come so few?
Good sturdy quality wheel- not as aero as a Zipp or HED but really good hubs make them a nice wheelset. The Carbone sl premium with the white decals look quite nice, but if aero is what you want, Zipp and HED top the charts.
Josh at Zipp posted not long ago a chart that put the Mavic ahead of the Hed (I think), and was extraordinarily close to the Zipps. I have these wheels, love them.
I know little about Mavics (Maybe that says more about Mavics that me), but isnt’ the Cosmic Carbone the same type of wheel as a Hed Jet? Only the Cosmic Carbone weighs more and costs more. If I’ve got the right wheel, it seems pretty clear why they aren’t mentioned much. The real question is why would anyone consider them?
I have data from a third party (not from ANY wheel manufacturer but a frame builder who is unbiased on wheels) that shows that HED is slightly faster then zipp and both wheels are significantly faster than anything else on the market. pretty interesting stuff when you get data from a company that does not have an axe to grind.
My prediction for 2008- you are going to see more wheel manufacturers copying HED’s Stinger design with a wider rim profile…
True, it seems like there are a million plus reports stating just what is the best. When I was considering zipps they were in the midst of all the delamination problems. Kinda jaded me on them forever. I would guess (and this is a guess mind y’all) that the truth is any aero wheelset is going to be fast, and differences in brands is probably not even enough to win a close race.
I would guess (and this is a guess mind y’all) that the truth is any aero wheelset is going to be fast, and differences in brands is probably not even enough to win a close race. <<
Untrue, the differences are actually significant between the contenders and pretenders. Patents and, skill knowledge and experience go a long way in wheel design, smoke and mirrors and price points dont get too far, case in point, the Pro-Lite Gavia carbon wheelset that retails for ~$900, great price for a carbon wheelset, but major issues in quality and construction and they are not fast… but then there are some wheels that are very sweet and fast but overpriced (depending on what your budget is). I posted on a smilar topic a month or so ago about this actually (thread on hed vs zipp).
That is why I guessed 
.
I ride them because they are bombproof.
Here is an interesting thread.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1153179;search_string=;#1153179
The Tour wheel test is roughly
Zipp 808
Hed3/Zipp 404(actually rebadged 404s)
Mavic Cosmic Carbone
Mavic did better than say Corima, Shimano, Bora and the like. I’ve heard as others have mentiooned that they are bomb proof.
The problem with citing the Tour test is the 808 and the H3 were never tested against each other in the same year-
The test that Al illuded to but cannot post is the one that I have too (and gave it to him). im trying to figure out how to post a spreadsheet on here. when i figure that out, ill post the chart.
Ok, here is the data that I have- the wheel is listed with the size tire it was tested with that is optimal for the rim shape and width.
Again, these numbers are from a major bike company that has no axe to grind between HED and Zipp but was running the numbers for their pro team that they work with- thats all that I can say about it.
Thats a good point. Also, Tour has never fully disclosed the way they test. They mention that they use different yaw angles but thats about it.
I cite what I have access to.
Thanks for the chart. Interesting though because Zipp and Hed both recommend 22mm tires over 19/20 for their torroidal rims.
The unfortunate issue is that there are more tests on wheels then we the consumer know about, but the results that we usually do get to see are at times extremely biased and or manipulated. It is cool to get our hands on data like this however!
The really cool thing is how different wheels perform in different conditions! The Stinger 90s and Zipp 808s perform really well at yaw angles ~5-12 deg but the HED 3 starts to really perform well at higher angles!
The main benefit of the Mavics are the durability, hub quality and the fact that they are available in clincher. Comparing say a Zipp 404 clincher wheelset to a cosmic carbone clincher wheelset, the difference in weight is only 100g. But, i would happily take speed bumps at 25mph without bothering to slow down on cosmic carbones, and yet i would be very wary of rim breakage with the Zipps.
I am not sure of the rim depth of the HED Jets, but if they are the same rim depth, then the HEDs lose out on aerodynamics, because the cosmic carbones are 16/20 F/R. That’s a very low spoke count and will make it more aero. Also, the Mavic hubs are better.
Where do the Easton Tempest II Carbon’s fall in the mix?
How can you say the Pro-Lite Gavia is “not fast” with out the data…? I have never seen them compared in any test. It is mostly HED and Zipp……Understandable since they have been around longer. However the HED Stinger 50 and the Gavia is the same open mold Hoop, the exception being Pro-Lite has a basalt breaking surface and their own Balzano hub (unbelievably smooth) creating a very stiff spoke pattern for great power transfer. Nothing technical here, just real life experience…I have both.
Per another post, the US distributor Pro-Deal is announcing a 90mm and disc new for 2007. The profile of the 90mm looks very similar to the HED, The disc is their own design and incredibly tough per a video on the Pro-Lite website and to top is off they are selling a combo set for any condition…wind, hill.s, flat out. Looks like someone finally gets it
Thanks to all those whom have replied. I can get a deal on these wheels so that is what got me looking at them, although I confess I have lusted for the H3s since they first came out oh so many years ago.
Simple- wheels with no toroidial rim pattern will never be as fast as a wheel with one. The stinger 50 does not have that shape nor does any pro lite rim profile- Stinger 50s do not fall apart, pro lites do. I know for a fact that R&A is having a b*&%h of a time getting pro lite wheels warranteed as all of the rims fell apart. As for their “new” wheel being like a stinger 90- it isnt. there will be no toroidal shape bc if it is, they have to pay royalties to both zipp and hed and then the profits will be virtually gone. HED and zipp both own their molds that they make their rims in, so no other wheel maker will be able to (1) get the same design (2) legally us that rim shape.
The name of the game is for these guys is to make a living out of this, not make stuff to break even or pay out royalties. That is why so many companies use zipps older 404 rim design from zipp to make their wheels. It gets them out of having to pay royalties to anyone. (ie easton, cane creek, rolf)
Looks are not what they always appear to be in wheel design.
You want numbers? I have those- here is a Stinger 50 compared to an H3C and 404. As you say, the pro lite is similar to a stinger 50… they are not the same rim, but for arguments sake, this is how much slower a stinger 50, (which is made for road racing and not TT or tri) over a H3c or 404.
The disk was a HED disk I believe. Also, the wind speeds used in the tests were the equivilant of going 25mph in the real world.