You want numbers? I have those- here is a Stinger 50 compared to an H3C and 404. As you say, the pro lite is similar to a stinger 50… they are not the same rim, but for arguments sake, this is how much slower a stinger 50, (which is made for road racing and not TT or tri) over a H3c or 404.
Don’t those numbers say that the stinger 50 is around as fast as the 404 (just slightly slower), while the H3C is way faster?
Am I reading this right?
i think it’s more interesting that the differences are (relative to a 404 rim):
50mm = +4W
58mm = reference
60mm = -10W to -12W
That extra 2mm seems to be making a huger difference. Also, Zipp recommends a 22mm tire for their wheels, but the data clearly shows that a 19mm tub is faster on a 404 rim!
Overall, they are great wheel and as others have said, they can take some abuse. Maybe it’s because Zipps have such a large percentage of the market, but it seems to me that in every race I’m in there are more people fixing flats on Zipps than any other brand. I raced and trained on my Cosmic Carbones for years and never had an issue. The biggest downside is cost. I sold my set because I got a great deal on a set of tri-spokes and was able to sell the Mavics for several hundred dollars more than I paid for the tri-spokes. I figured that they are equivalent wheels in terms of aero and durability, so why not pocket a couple hundred bucks?
ya you are reading that correctly- I was using the sample of the stinger 50 which was tested and used the common 404 or H3c as a comparision, but what really opens up people’s eyes is how much faster a stinger 90 or 808 (both have the toroidal rim shape) is over a stinger 50, 60 and 404. What is really interesting is how different wheels will perform in different conditions, ie in yaw angles of ~5-12 degrees a 90 or 808 is superior to an H3 but in steeper wind angles (ya of 13 deg and above) the H3 starts to outperform the stingers and 808s. IMHO the H3 is a better choice more often then not due to the lighter rim which means that the wheel will climb better (lower rotating weight) then the heaiver rimmed 90 or 808. This is one of the reasons according to the guys at Hed that Lance used the H3c setup at his last tour TT.
First off, thanks for posting that data. One comment, though: it’s not really a fair representation to add up and divide the performace at various yaw angles, since some of those higher angles will rarely be seen, and some yaw angles will be seen a much higher percentage of the time. However, since you showed the whole chart, one can look and choose for him/herself.
One last caveat: wind speed at wheel level is typically a good bit less than where wind speed meausurements are taken, i.e., it’s going to take a hell of a measured wind and/or a very slow rider to get a 20 degree yaw angle
edit: one pretty noticable omission is an 808 with a wider (22) tire. The tubular rims (I’m guessing these are all tubulars?), are really wide–almost 26mm! at the widest point. I’m guessing based on the Stinger 90’s peformance, the 808 would fare better with a wider tire as well.
Actually via current research, bot HED and Zipp are now finding that not only do athletes see wind angles of 20 degrees or more- In fact, the slower the rider is going, the steeper the apparent wind angle becomes-
Here is a rider traveling northwest at 23.2 mph, the wind is coming in at south/southwest at 13.6mph- the apparent wind angle the rider is seeing is now 26.18 degrees
If that same rider slows down to 19.6 mph, same wind angle and speed, the apparent wind angle becomes 29.6 degrees
The reason that Zipps were not tested with 22mm tires is that rims on a HED stinger are 22mm wide therefore the tire will interact with the rim how it should. Zipp rims are not as wide and a 20mm tire interacts with a Zipp rim the same way the 22 interacts with a HED. a 22mm tire on the Zipp would test worse as the tire will buldge out further then the rim.
wind angle of 26.18 degrees
wind angle of 29.6 degrees
Any idea how the Aeolus 6.5 performs as it is also toridial (sp) in shape? And is deeper than the stinger 60 and 404.
The reason that Zipps were not tested with 22mm tires is that rims on a HED stinger are 22mm wide therefore the tire will interact with the rim how it should. Zipp rims are not as wide and a 20mm tire interacts with a Zipp rim the same way the 22 interacts with a HED. a 22mm tire on the Zipp would test worse as the tire will buldge out further then the rim.
Hmm…but they tested the 404 with a 22–and the 404 is narrower than the 808, both at the rim bed and at the widest point? I actually have both down in my basement. The 404 measures 20.5/23mm, and the 808 measures 22/27mm. Based on the fact that the 808 tested identically with a 19 and 20, I’m guessing that on the test wheel, the rim was actually the leading edge on both, so I’m still betting that is would have tested similarly to the Hed 90 with a wider tire–but who knows. At higher yaw angles, the Hed 90 is actually worse with a wider tire–and the 404 better??
Factor in rolling resistance and this gets confusing pretty quickly! Again, I’m not trying to be argumentative–just trying to figure it out. And I guess the answer is almost always going to be “it depends”.
Here are your 808 numbers with a 22 tire- I have those too amongst many other wheels that were tested.
At steeper yaw angles the deeper 90s tend to “stall”. ask anyone who actually tested a 100MM rim or even deeper and see what happens at steep yaw angles. That is why a 3 spoke tends to make a better all around choice. The 90 and 808 window of excellence is small but when you are in that 5-12 deg angle, that is the sweet spot that really makes those wheels FLY.
What program is that cool wind speed thing in???
IMFSUB12
It is a proprietary program that Hed uses with the discovery channel team for wheel selections based on wind conditions and rider speed. They have allowed some coaches and other industry people to have it too but it is rare for them to release it.
The reason that Zipps were not tested with 22mm tires is that rims on a HED stinger are 22mm wide therefore the tire will interact with the rim how it should. Zipp rims are not as wide and a 20mm tire interacts with a Zipp rim the same way the 22 interacts with a HED. a 22mm tire on the Zipp would test worse as the tire will buldge out further then the rim.
Hey thanks! Not quite what I expected actually–but good enough!
You’re right, the sweet spot for the deep wheels tends to be 5-12 degrees, which for me actually works out pretty well (mass start races and short TT’s, where the speeds are closer to 30mph, and the winds are mild).
The only other thing I’d mention (ok, 2 things) as far as calling the H3 a better all-around wheel. For a smaller rider (like me), the wind angles at which the wheel are most advantagous become the most problematic from a handling standpoint. Guys who are more than 60-62 kg’s probably don’t have this problem, but I have a much easier time controlling an 808 than an H3, and I’m not alone in that.
Secondly, I’m supposing due to the narrow rim bed on the H3, it’s a little worse with a 22mm tire–and there’s the whole rolling resistance issue of certeris paribus, wider tires having less RR.
I don’t want this to seem as I’m anti-tri spoke. I have one, and I use it on occassion–and have had some really good results on it. But it has to be the perfect storm for a guy my size doing shorter, faster events: windy–but not TOO windy. For a heavier AG triathlete though, based on these results, I’d agree with your assessment
Could you comment on the Bontrage Aeolus or their other wheelsets, ie the tubular aero. Their site says designed by Hed, yet I hear nothing. I have a chance being sponsered to have a good price on Bontrangers but I know nothing, and have no idea of time savings or cost comparisons. Would GREATLY appreciate any opinion or knowledge you could share with a Montanain novce…Thank you Very much…Kenney
Ill answer this one for Al since I am here already!
The Aeolus wheels are actually pretty quick- HED designs and builds the fairing that makes up the aero section and then it gets bonded onto a carbon bontrager rim. Rappstar rides them so he can tell you more with first hand experience about ride quality, but it is a really nice wheel aero wise.
Actually via current research, bot HED and Zipp are now finding that not only do athletes see wind angles of 20 degrees or more- In fact, the slower the rider is going, the steeper the apparent wind angle becomes-
Here is a rider traveling northwest at 23.2 mph, the wind is coming in at south/southwest at 13.6mph- the apparent wind angle the rider is seeing is now 26.18 degrees
If that same rider slows down to 19.6 mph, same wind angle and speed, the apparent wind angle becomes 29.6 degrees
wind angle of 26.18 degrees
wind angle of 29.6 degrees
ok, at the risk of beating a dead horse (which means I’m about to beat a dead horse…), I was wondering “how likely is a 13.6 mile an hour wind at sea level?”. The answer: not very likely. Obviously, it happens, and it’s certainly worth checking the average winds for your key race sites, which is really the moral of the story in looking at the data you posted. However, after looking at some wind maps (they’re easy to find on-line thanks to the interest in wind power), even at 30 meters those winds aren’t that likely–and at .5 meters, even less so. I mostly checked out maps on the west and east coasts.
Maybe the Stinger 90 and 808 are looking a little better to me now for the age-group athlete…
A fast reliable wheel. it has to mentioned they are heavy (1.8kg) and the older version which I use in criteriums are nearer 2kg. At the end of the day you’ll get a wheel as aero and a lot lighter for the same money (Hed being one) but for what they are, they aren’t too bad.
LOVE this thread! Exactly why Slowtwitch Rocks!!!
Another quick question: I have always been a “Zipp Guy” for several reasons, but after reading this thread I am considering going with an H3C up front instead of an 808. I have heard, on ST among other places, that the interaction between the tri-spoke and the blades of the fork can create additional drag. Do your numbers take this into account? How was the testing done and using what fork/frame (if you’re allowed to say)
thanks
Brian
Ill answer this one for Al since I am here already!
The Aeolus wheels are actually pretty quick- HED designs and builds the fairing that makes up the aero section and then it gets bonded onto a carbon bontrager rim. Rappstar rides them so he can tell you more with first hand experience about ride quality, but it is a really nice wheel aero wise.
ok, at the risk of beating a dead horse (which means I’m about to beat a dead horse…), I was wondering “how likely is a 13.6 mile an hour wind at sea level?”. The answer: not very likely. Obviously, it happens, and it’s certainly worth checking the average winds for your key race sites, which is really the moral of the story in looking at the data you posted. However, after looking at some wind maps (they’re easy to find on-line thanks to the interest in wind power), even at 30 meters those winds aren’t that likely–and at .5 meters, even less so. I mostly checked out maps on the west and east coasts.
Maybe the Stinger 90 and 808 are looking a little better to me now for the age-group athlete…
Actually you’d be surprised at how high the wind speeds can actually be, especially on courses with variable tree cover, or large buildings, etc. I measured wind speeds of anywhere from 5-19mph. In central Floriduh it’s not unusual to see 10+mph consistent wind speeds on a semi-daily basis. This is measured with an anemometer, I went and bought one because I had been told so many times that my “seat of the pants” estimates were off by a factor of two. It turns out they are not. When you are riding 350W into a headwind at only 16mph…it’s pretty obvious the windspeed is well over 10mph. Or when coasting at 15mph and feeling a tailwind whooshing past your face… 