Figured the best way to get faster in the water was to join a masters club and suffer. So, today, I was confronted with what is your average stroke per 25 meters. I said, “I have no idea” and there it went. He states to be 20-22 for pacing and 24-26 for spinting. I counted, so did he, and came up with 25 during a pacing swim of 50m. I am quick to start the stroke so that my arms are crossing during the catch instead of holding a few seconds longer at the reach and reach further also was another tip. He says hard to do this in a workout so how do I teach myself to do this? He did introduce me to a Finis pulse device that I placed under the cap and he said stick to that rhythm. It was hard to swim to a churp.
I am quick to start the stroke so that my arms are crossing during the catch instead of holding a few seconds longer at the reach and reach further also was another tip. He says hard to do this in a workout so how do I teach myself to do this? .
You do what he said. Reach and take your time. When your hand is out front, reach out and count to 2 before you start to pull. If you count higher you’re doing a drill, 2 and you’re still swimming. If you feel unstable like you’re going to tip over, ask your coach for more help.
Okay, I can do that easily enough. He also stated that I was swimming with my arms instead of letting my shoulders dictate the swim. This would be fixed by holding my arm out for a 1-2 count. Thanks
25 strokes per 25 meters is really high. To become more efficient, you need to work on lowering your stroke count per 25. I would suggest doing - One arm transfer (one armed swimming while really focusing on opening the hips and gliding), catch up drills (really increasing the power in the kick), swimming with closed fists, kicking drills (superman kick, on the side kick). I would start out every swim workout with these drills and finish every workout with them. I usually do 300 yds minimum of drills on the front and back end of every workout. I have gone from a stroke count of 22-23 per 25 yds to 10-11 per 25 yds in the past 2 years with drill focus. The one problem with lowering your stroke count so much is that breathing every 3 strokes is nearly impossible, so you’ll have to modify.
Just be aware that once you figure out how to really integrate and use your body roll to propel your stroke, you’ll then spend a couple of seasons trying to get rid of that glide/reach.
Unless you’re a far more awesome kicker than 99% of non-fish triathletes, a long glide leads to a bit of deceleration in that part of the stroke and then you spend the rest of the pull trying to get back up to speed again.
There’s a sweet spot in terms of figuring out how to get a full extension on the front end of your stroke without ending up with the glide of death. Everything in proportion and moderation and all. Keep that in mind as you start the process of technique improvement, Grasshopper.
25 strokes per 25m? I can’t count that fast!
Me? I’m usually about 15-16 per 25m, 13 oer 25m when concentrating and blowing out to 18 when I’m tired. For up to about 10 lengths, I can get to around 10 stokes per 25m, but with bilateral breathing I run out of puff quite quickly since the breaths are so far apart! 2 stroke breathing throws off my techique and I lose rythym.
Swim golf (strokes plus time in seconds) per 50m, I can normally get to low 60’s and from time to time, get to 58.
Swim golf is great because it’s no benefit to spin like crazy or stall ones stroke as both will punish your score.
At the other end of the scale we sometimes do speed drills where technique goes out the window and we flail like crazy. I can get to just under 2 strokes per second, for 50m but then I’m completely stuffed for about 3 minutes! LOL
25 strokes per 25 meters is really high.
I think there is a terminology issue. some people count each arm as a stroke, others count one cycle (both arms) as a stroke. At 25 strokes per 25m you will be doing less than 1m per stroke, so I think he is really meaning 12.5 per 25m. That is more realistic. More importantly you should aim for strokes per minute in the range of 65-85 (with 85 being really high). My personal optimum is 70 SPM, which for me = about 12 strokes per length in a 25m pool. Faster = increased stroke rate and increased distance per stroke, just getting the balance right is important. What helped me increase stroke rate is to power up the front of the catch, and exit early for a quick recovery stroke. More power can be generated up front than in the middle and at the back.
PS - I use the Finis Swimsense which means I don’t have to have someone to count all of this stuff, I just swim and look later. Here is an example from today’s swim showing the stroke count in a 21m pool.
Having said all of that, I am more of a runner than a swimmer so what do I know…
I’m not sure there is confusion…lol. I currently swim at about 22 strokes per (scy) length when swimming intervals. Counting every hand entry that is. So that would translate to what…24 strokes per scm?
Now if I go out and try to stretch every stroke and glide like crazy I can get down to about 15-16, but that’s no good for performance. I see the “bad” swimmers in my pool easily exceeding 30 strokes per length.
I’m not a terrible swimmer, and I’m not kicking hard (training to tri). I swim my intervals just a hair over 1:20 / 100 currently. I’ve made MASSIVE improvements since I started swimming / researching swimming in June. I try to concentrate on technique every single stroke.
There are some very very high stroke count swimmers out there swimming very fast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND1L8I2ZY5w
You can watch the vid above and see a 44 min IM (full IM not half…lol) swimmer stroke 48 times in a 50m length. You can then go watch the Total Immersion folks swim 12 strokes in a 25 yard length.
More than one way to skin a cat apparently.
Is the 1:20 had to wall, and if so how much rest do you take after each one, or is it a 1:20 sendoff you’re talking?
It makes a difference.
Easy way to “stretch out” your stroke is to do catch up drill. Basically you swim normal but you don’t start the pull of your next stroke until the previous stroke “catches up” to the hand that is reaching. It’s a bit difficult to explain so I’ll attach a link. Also, your coach wasn’t talking about stroke rate. He was using distance per stroke or DPS. Stroke rate is just like turnover on the bike or run. I’d say 90 strokes a minute is average comp swimmer stroke rate and for a tri race, I’d suggest 60 strokes per min.
1:20’s on the 1:45 for me…not settling by any means.
70 strokes per minute, 12 strokes per length in a 25m pool by my math gives you at least 5 lengths in a 25m pool each minute. That works out to be 48 seconds per 100 meters. That’s very fast.
I think that he means 25 single arm strokes per 25 meters. That’s not ‘that’ bad.
I think that he means 25 single arm strokes per 25 meters. That’s not ‘that’ bad. //
No kidding, it is funny how little people really know about swimming, but never stops them from being experts. OF course it was 25 arm strokes, this is a triathlete we are talking about, and a MOP swimmer at that. 12.5 strokes per lap would be a world class guy, and a big one at that. I think i remember that Sun who just set the 1500m record was taking 28 strokes LCM during his record swim, so that would translate to about 11 to 12 or so I would guess for SCM. And he is most definitely the far end of the bell curve when it comes to strokes per length. I would say that 25 is ok for a MOP swimmer, but definitely needs to be improved upon. It is not a count to be proud of, but also not a bad place to be starting if looking at improving DPS.
I used to swim around 22 strokes/25m which resulted in around 2:00/ 100 yards split in races. Working on pulling water also helps reduce the stroke count. You can focus on it by using a pull buoy and just counting your strokes each 25m.
The goal isn’t to coast and kick for a while between each stroke. It’s to combine a powerful pull with an efficient body position such that each pull moves you further down the pool.
Reducing stroke count by gliding forever is not very useful.
Reducing stroke count by gliding forever is not very useful.
Especially if you have a ‘chunky, draggy’ frame. The more time spent between strokes, the more momentum is lost. As a short, stocky athlete, having a higher stroke rate leads to faster swimming as I do not sink into the water so much between strokes. It took a long time to get past the emphasis, by most advice, that the key to faster swimming was to reduce the number of strokes per length by having a longer glide between strokes.
One size does not fit all.
I am not sure the point of your post. I swim 22 per 25 and swim 1;20 to 1:25 in races, depending on distance…In fact my stroke count does not change much with speed, my turnover does
yes, sorry the Finis counts a stroke as one cycle (right + left) so in effect my regular stroke is 22 strokes per 21m (not 11 as the Finis reports). This doesn’t really change much no matter how fast or slow I swim (maybe by 1 or 2). In fact when I swim faster it sometimes goes down a bit.
The general trend at the moment for open water swimming is to try and swim at a higher cadence/turnover (strokes per minute) - they say you should aim to 70-85+ SPM.
Just be aware that once you figure out how to really integrate and use your body roll to propel your stroke, you’ll then spend a couple of seasons trying to get rid of that glide/reach.
Unless you’re a far more awesome kicker than 99% of non-fish triathletes, a long glide leads to a bit of deceleration in that part of the stroke and then you spend the rest of the pull trying to get back up to speed again.
There’s a sweet spot in terms of figuring out how to get a full extension on the front end of your stroke without ending up with the glide of death. Everything in proportion and moderation and all. Keep that in mind as you start the process of technique improvement, Grasshopper.
Glad someone else said.
Gliding in swimming is for people who don’t want to win. Would you pedal rest at the top of each pedal stroke? Sounds silly doesn’t it. It might be the most efficient way to get you around town on your bike, but it ain’t going to be the fastest.
No good finishing a race being the most efficient.
Want to swim faster - don’t leave a gap in your stroke. Ignore what 99% of swim coaches tell you, because they read and get taught how to coach the 0.01% of people who can kick 50m in around 27 seconds. They then think everyone should swim that way.