Easy way to “stretch out” your stroke is to do catch up drill. Basically you swim normal but you don’t start the pull of your next stroke until the previous stroke “catches up” to the hand that is reaching. It’s a bit difficult to explain so I’ll attach a link. Also, your coach wasn’t talking about stroke rate. He was using distance per stroke or DPS. Stroke rate is just like turnover on the bike or run. **I’d say 90 strokes a minute is average comp swimmer stroke rate and for a tri race, I’d suggest 60 strokes per min. **
Seriously? I’d say it’s the other way round. Probably not as low as 60 spm but pretty much every open water swimmer (i.e. good triathlete) has a high stroke rate. Have you seen footage of an ITU swim? There arms never stop spinning.
It took a while for me to get past that emphasis too. After I stopped counting strokes I got a bit faster. I still strive to grab as much water as I can though.
I didn’t say anything about gliding forever. I said count to two. That will slow things down, let him roll and catch and get some power in his pull. 25 strokes per lap means there isn’t much going on except flailing. He needs to slow down and get some deliberate control. Counting to two is just a trick to get him to the next step. He has a coach who will help him and sounds competent.
Have you seen the average age grouper in a half or IM? They only have a stroke rate of 60.
All I did when I swam D1 was stroke rate stuff so I know what I’m talking about. I chose 60 because that seems like a reasonable rate for average swimmers to hold for a half or full. Of course the elites are going to have higher turn overs. Even so, they do not come anywhere close to 90spm.
“Average” stroke count is a red herring - everybody’s different (arm length, body height, strength, etc), so there is no “best” stroke count, other than your own personal stroke count.
Have a look at this video to see what is meant by a patient lead hand:
There’s a 100 different micro-technique issues involved in each stroke; any one of them can be inconsequential, the cumulative effect of all of them is massive. Work with your coach, study the videos, and swim, swim, swim. One day while swimming, all of the sudden you’ll feel yourself just slicing through the water, and that’ll be the “Ah HA!” moment when you FEEL your stroke come together. Then spend the next 30 years trying to get that feeling consistent (only half kidding).
Progress, not perfection. Remember, for triathlons, the idea is to get through the swim as quickly as possible with as LITTLE energy expenditure as possible. Better technique = better energy management = better bike & run.
To : 25 strokes per lap means there isn’t much going on except flailing. …Have to disagree, see my above post, I am at 22-23 strokes and for an IM hold 1:25 per hundred pace. Thats an hr flat.Can I improve at 52yrs, sure but my stroke is not “that” bad.
My swimming stinks. I am about your age, but only started trying to really be a swimmer at the beginning of 2011. This morning, doing sets of 100, my poolmate watch told me that most of my stroke counts were mostly 10s,some 11s and one 9. My average time per 100 is still around 2.0/100. I have improved as the year has progressed but I seem to have “stopped” at this average time per 100. I do have a decent body rotation and I try to reach and grab with my pull. My kick probally isn’t much but alot of faster swimmers kick less than I do. Frustrating to say the least. So I guess my stroke count is ok and I need to look at problems with my technique?
I thought stroke count definition was dealt with already in this thread. So my 22-23 is both arms for 25yrds…I am not a coack but I am swimming over 25% faster with a higher stroke count than you, so I do not think a low stroke count means much. Sounds like your gliding to much…My 2 cents
This morning, doing sets of 100, my poolmate watch told me that most of my stroke counts were mostly 10s,some 11s and one 9. My average time per 100 is still around 2.0/100.
I assume you are talking 9/10/11 entries of one hand, so 18/20/22 strokes. At 2:00/100, that’s a real low stroke rate (36-44 per minute). Without knowing anything else about you, I might suggest trying to toy with increasing your stroke rate.
I have gone from a stroke count of 22-23 per 25 yds to 10-11 per 25 yds in the past 2 years with drill focus.
How long had you been swimming prior to two years ago? What was your speed progression at various distances prior to and after reducing your stroke count to insanely low levels?
Unless one is highly streamlined and/or has a massive and efficient kick, holding the extension for a 1-2 count can lead to serious decelleration and all that accompanies that issue.
The pro 10k race in Brazil last December saw an elite field of ten athletes managing the pace with a stroke rate range of between 76-82. When the break was made at the 7k mark, eventual winner, Trent Grimsley, went to a stroke rate of nearing 100/minute with a strong 6BK. The chase pack then ignited their rates to 84-92 with an increase to a 6BK. They were unable to catch him. They all largely held those rates for the final 3k.
He had me start counting after pushing off the wall and doing on cycle, then count each arm stroke. Said nothing on strokes per min. I do bilateral breathing every three strokes and try one stroke breathing on one side only but fear I will not rotate properly on the non breathing side. I counted and he did also to confirm I was doing it correctly. He was talking about stroke count and time along with distance yesterday to focus on efficiency.
Ken - that is a really good piece of info. I think it might have been defined earlier, but I will re-state if it has:
a STROKE is generally considered to be a SINGLE arm pull
a CYCLE is considered to be a pair of STROKES
Now, this is my definition, but I think that it conforms to most of what you see in the data. The stroke rate watches, as noted earlier may only count one arm, so I don’t know if they record strokes or cycles (I haven’t used them).
Are you talking about total immersion? The rason I ask is I just came back rom the pool with my experiment of one. I normaly have a stroke count of 22-23. Can swim a 1000 with open turns at a 1:25 pace (14:10). With a wtsuit did two IMin good condition at 60:14 and 60:20.(1:25 per hundred pace).
Today tried that 1-2 count. Probably was shorter than that. For the life of me I could not swim faster than 1:45 pace. …My stroke is not that bad and there is no way I would try to learn that. …My goal for this years IM is 59 flat.
Seems like one of the more common comments I make on swimmer video posted here is “ice amount of body roll, but you’re not using it correctly to get extension on the front end.” Just sticking your hand out and pausing everything doesn’t guarantee you’ll figure out how to get that part of the stroke right.
If you want to get a better feel for the body roll-arm extension connection, I’d probably crack out the fins, and do about a 200 every practice of the drill where you do six kicks on the left side with hand and arm fully extended out front then do one arm stroke so you’re on your right side and doing six kicks before another arm stroke takes you to your left side again.
Of the assorted drills I’ve seen suggested, I think it’s one of the better ones for integrating body roll into the bigger picture.
I normaly have a stroke count of 22-23. Can swim a 1000 with open turns at a 1:25 pace (14:10). /
Keep in mind that your count is not accurate to what most of us are talking about. If you did flip turns, it would be one or two less per lap, so you might be as low as 20 comparing apples to apples. 20 is not too bad for OW swimming, and not horrible for the pool either. It would not hurt you to lose a stroke or not, but i would not try anything drastic like TI at this point. It is ok to figure out how to take fewer strokes, but then immediately try to use that knowledge while still going fast. For example, do longer strokes by holding more water, then transfer that hold into faster pull through. Of course there will be some slipping, but it is all about finding that spot where you can turnover and slip the least. That is why we have to swim so many miles in order to just do a few minutes of good, correct, and fast swimming…
Just be aware that once you figure out how to really integrate and use your body roll to propel your stroke, you’ll then spend a couple of seasons trying to get rid of that glide/reach.
Unless you’re a far more awesome kicker than 99% of non-fish triathletes, a long glide leads to a bit of deceleration in that part of the stroke and then you spend the rest of the pull trying to get back up to speed again.
There’s a sweet spot in terms of figuring out how to get a full extension on the front end of your stroke without ending up with the glide of death. Everything in proportion and moderation and all. Keep that in mind as you start the process of technique improvement, Grasshopper.
Amen. That sweet spot is elusive, but it’s what we’re all after.