Israel exploding Hezbollah's handhelds?

[slowguy]

@spockman

I am not sure how they can do better. Maybe by not taking out their enemies? I also wonder about the veracity of these reports. I think the Israelis are way smarter than I am in terms of not being wiped out in a very hostile neighborhood. I know for sure they are not asking me for advice.

You can’t think of anyway to avoid the possibility of civilian casualties than rigging hundreds or thousands of pagers and then having no control over where they go or who has them when you detonate them? You can’t imagine any possible way to target Hizb’allah that might manage collateral damage better, except for not attacking at all?

I’d suggest you need some serious work on your imagination.

[spockman]

For the amount of damage done vs the collateral damage done my imagination cannot come up with much better. This was a massive blow to Hezbollah. Yes they could have taken out a few guys by sniper attack etc. But more than that a bomb for instance there always seems to be much collateral damage.

[slowguy]

@spockman

For the amount of damage done vs the collateral damage done my imagination cannot come up with much better. This was a massive blow to Hezbollah. Yes they could have taken out a few guys by sniper attack etc. But more than that a bomb for instance there always seems to be much collateral damage.

Well yeah, that’s always the question. Is the amount of collateral damage worth it to get the amount of intended legitimate damage or casualties? That’s the whole point.

If we wanted to kill every single Hamas operative in Gaza, we could nuke it. For the amount of damage done, it’s hard to imagine a way with less collateral damage. But really obviously that’s not an acceptable solution.

That’s the whole crux of the questions people have had about Israel’s conduct of this conflict. Have they been making a good faith effort to manage those calculations or have they been relying on US sympathy to give them more rope to respond however they wanted?

[windywave]

@RogerC39

This was my point.

There just seems to be some difference between, say, a drone strike at a wedding designed to take out a known enemy who was in attendance, knowing that it will also result in civilian casualties. As problematic as that may be, I can understand the logic.

There seems to be something different about detonating pagers not knowing who actually has them.

And the end of the day, one can agree with the tactic and strategy. But that agreement should be at a minimum coupled with some uncertainty, at least some recognition for the moral ambiguity of it.

I guess for some here, though, being troubled and questioning this is the equivalent of defending terrorism, when it should be the exact opposite.

I’m not condemning Israel for this. I’m just saying that it’s really concerning. And it’s disturbing that so many here seem to be so eager to applaud this without question.

So you think known collateral damage going in is the better targeting option?

[windywave]

@slowguy

@spockman

Its war it is never free of negatives. Israeli is at war with Hezbollah

Current reporting indicates 12 deaths from yesterday’s pager attacks. 2 were children. Almost 17% of deaths from this attack were kids. That doesn’t seem to me like great collateral damage management. I don’t think we have a clear idea of the rest of the injuries as far as how many were Hizb’allah as opposed to innocent civilians, but Israel simply has not done a good job making it clear to the international community that they take that management responsibility seriously.

BBC couldn’t interview any people at the hospital because they were Hezbollah

[windywave]

@BLeP

My manager has been deemed a terrorist because he was drafted into the Revolutionary Guard where he worked in HR for two years.

Windy would have no issue with him being blown up with a pager.

Is he currently working for them? If not then no I wouldn’t support him being targeted

[Engner66]

BBC is as reliable as Al Jazeera or UN in this conflict.

[windywave]

@slowguy

@spockman

I am not sure how they can do better. Maybe by not taking out their enemies? I also wonder about the veracity of these reports. I think the Israelis are way smarter than I am in terms of not being wiped out in a very hostile neighborhood. I know for sure they are not asking me for advice.

You can’t think of anyway to avoid the possibility of civilian casualties than rigging hundreds or thousands of pagers and then having no control over where they go or who has them when you detonate them? You can’t imagine any possible way to target Hizb’allah that might manage collateral damage better, except for not attacking at all?

I’d suggest you need some serious work on your imagination.

So what’s the better option that still results in a significant degradation of Hezbollah communications while simultaneously rendering their militants combat ineffective?

[windywave]

@Engner66

BBC is as reliable as Al Jazeera or UN in this conflict.

Um care to expand in that? I find the BBC to be quite reliable and objective when reporting news.

[Engner66]

That’s like asking if Fox is pro Trump/MAGA They constantly repeat the terrorists rethoric without any scrutiny, bring experts that are clearly criticizing Israel with a heavy bias, they were one of the first ones to grill Israel over the “hospital attack” and never stood corrected after it was clearly demonstrated that it was a terrorist rocket that misfired into the hospital’s parking lot, etc. just read the comments on YT whenever BBC releases a video of the terrorists dealing with a setback. If you can’t see the bias…it’s because you are biased too.

BBC Australia seems to be very anti woke/lefty, which amuses but would prefer it a bit more objective.

[windywave]

@Engner66

That’s like asking if Fox is pro Trump/MAGA They constantly repeat the terrorists rethoric without any scrutiny, bring experts that are clearly criticizing Israel with a heavy bias, they were one of the first ones to grill Israel over the “hospital attack” and never stood corrected after it was clearly demonstrated that it was a terrorist rocket that misfired into the hospital’s parking lot, etc. just read the comments on YT whenever BBC releases a video of the terrorists dealing with a setback. If you can’t see the bias…it’s because you are biased too.

BBC Australia seems to be very anti woke/lefty, which amuses but would prefer it a bit more objective.

To be clear, you are accusing me, Windy, of selecting an extremely left biased news source as one of my main and trusted news sources?

And consequently I, windy, am biased against Israel?

[Andrewmc]

He’s not been here long enough

[Andrewmc]

this, its possible to be a supporter of the state of israel but not its currently leadership

its possible to view its right to exist and the idea of a palestinian state

its possible that Gvir and Smotrich are genuinely no better in their beliefs than the worst of the other side; inciting racial hatred and a deep xenophobia

being critical of Israels approach does not make one antisemitic any more than being pro-isreal makes one an islamophobe however there are critics of israel who are antisemitic and pro-israelis who are islamophobic

[DarkSpeedWorks]

@Engner66

Terrorism targets civilians (either direct attacks or intimidation) to achieve political and ideological influences. This was not targeted at civilians, the users of the pagers were ALL affiliated with Hezbollah. Unfortunately, there has been some inevitable collateral damage.

Speaking of reliable sources of information, can you share your source on the bolded/capitalized info?

[Engner66]

Why do you even ask if you are going to ignore anything I will provide? Whatever you folks read from hamas/UN or radical left news sources you accept it as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Anything that does not align with the terrorist’s agenda is immediately tagged as “zionist propaganda” or whatever nonsense term you folks like to use.

Seems as if you did not even know what the definition of terrorism was a few posts ago, so maybe you should do a bit more reading before probing others views?. So that we are clear: for example, college students harassing and intimidating Jewish college students on campus is considered terrorism. These kids are active terrorists. It ain’t all about partying with C4 and blowing up dozens of civilians.

[LacticacidMCB]

@BLeP

My manager has been deemed a terrorist because he was drafted into the Revolutionary Guard where he worked in HR for two years.

You are missing the fact that he would have had to have had a pager procured through a terrorist organizations supply chain. If you formally were in the Revolutionary Guard and also had a terrorist organizations pager, you probably are a terrorist.

[DarkSpeedWorks]

@Engner66

Why do you even ask if you are going to ignore anything I will provide? Whatever you folks read from hamas/UN or radical left news sources you accept it as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Anything that does not align with the terrorist’s agenda is immediately tagged as “zionist propaganda” or whatever nonsense term you folks like to use.

Seems as if you did not even know what the definition of terrorism was a few posts ago, so maybe you should do a bit more reading before probing others views?. So that we are clear: for example, college students harassing and intimidating Jewish college students on campus is considered terrorism. These kids are active terrorists. It ain’t all about partying with C4 and blowing up dozens of civilians.

So, to summarize then, you are not willing to provide your reliable source?

Ok, yeah, that’s the ticket.

[Kay_Serrar]

@Engner66

If I provide IDF’s number, you will reject them. Yet, yourself and all other antisemitic terrorist supporters take hamas numbers without any scrutiny. So why do you even ask me?

BTW, what is the left-wing folks like yourself romantic obsession with supporting islamic terorrist groups? They are not communists. They see us as infidels (whether we are useful or not).

Baseless accusations of supporting terrorism should not be tolerated on this forum. I hope the mods will take appropriate action.

Objecting to Israel killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians, a large percentage of them being women and children, is not supporting terrorism. Indeed, it’s opposing terrorism.

[ajthomas]

I have t gone back and read how this thread unfolded, but I think I understand your point of view.

Dan described (I think Dan) this a precise attack. And it kind of is. But it’s also indiscriminate. When the device is detonated there is no way to know if it is in the hands of a child or noncombatant. Further, I am sure it has created a hysteria for everyone there. We were afraid of more attacks after 9/11 so we shut down all air traffic for several days (is that right? Was it just a day?). Can you imagine the fear that everyone there is facing right now?

The point of view that there is always collateral damage and that this type of attack might actually be fairly effective at preventing collateral damage should also be considered. I suppose what I think is there are some psychological similarities between this attack and terrorism. But it is not the same.

[DarkSpeedWorks]

@ajthomas

I have t gone back and read how this thread unfolded, but I think I understand your point of view.

Dan described (I think Dan) this a precise attack. And it kind of is. But it’s also indiscriminate. When the device is detonated there is no way to know if it is in the hands of a child or noncombatant. Further, I am sure it has created a hysteria for everyone there. We were afraid of more attacks after 9/11 so we shut down all air traffic for several days (is that right? Was it just a day?). Can you imagine the fear that everyone there is facing right now?

The point of view that there is always collateral damage and that this type of attack might actually be fairly effective at preventing collateral damage should also be considered. I suppose what I think is there are some psychological similarities between this attack and terrorism. But it is not the same.

I am not so worried about hysteria.

But, based on what I have seen so far, the actual number of very bad people that are injured or dead are very few. And the actual number of savagely injured regular schmoes and innocents just trying to live and survive in a highly flawed country is very very high.

But Israel (based on their behavior in Gaza and other places) doesn’t give a flying f*ck about this distinction. It is kind of like putting the blame of all of the ills of US foreign policy on the backs of the people that were working in the high powered businesses in the twin towers on Sept 11. Sure, you can try to do that, but it is meaningless and indsicriminate.