and the Tee Tee
.
CoM travels a shorter distance with both examples
I understand the point.
BB :
So, increase BB hight by 2 meters will help ?
You mention the advantage, but you forget the disadvantage (aero), and you do not supply any element to compare them.
You assume CoM travel advantage beat Aero disadvantage. An proof ?
LHD :
easy to understand, but when I see Ashton Lambie and the US team do not use it, while riding on Felt, I’m wandering why.
I’ve done a little work on this topic, so excuse my brevity on the explanation. In short, a 250m perfectly circular track would be fastest if ridden on a bike with a BB height of ~124 meters.
I know why. Felt doesn’t just give away $25,000 bikes and that 11 year old Tk1 is still pretty good. AL is getting a TA. They are made to order and as I mentioned, there is (was) no 62 or 63T chainring for the crankset.
Bar choice makes a huge difference. Hard to say T4 vs some of the others, as you can put different bars on the T4. The T4 with the USE R1 can be as fast as any bike out there. Dean’s experience with the T4 is not universal. The TULA - what Dean ran on his T4 - is a step behind the R1. I’d be most - if not all - of what Dean saw in the T4 vs FRD could be attributed to bars. Other possibility is the SRM he had on his T4 vs the FRD’s Vision crankset. Aero cranksets make a difference.
Wheel choice is another factor. Not sure if Dean ever ran the HED wheels on his T4. Most of the guys on Team Huub/Wattbike are still riding the T4. And going plenty fast on it… The T4 is still remarkably fast. It’s not clear that there’s an obviously better bike out there. Other bikes as good? I think so.
The Argon is supposed to be really fast. But I think we’ll know more now that Australia is on it instead of BT. And that Avanti is pretty interesting and for sure should be included…
At least based on some reports from the track here, the FRD definitely isn’t indisputably faster than everything else…
The big takeaway that I’ve gotten from talking to a bunch of folks about this is that the bars matter more than the frame. Bars being inclusive of hand position. Helmet + skinsuit pairing is also a big deal. It’s not just what helmet; it’s the helmet + the skinsuit.
and the Tee Tee
I loved this one, but it is a bit obsolete now.
The best looking pursuiter / team pursuiter on this one was Jenning Huizenga, in 2014 / 2016, IMO.
I loved his experimentations on mantis before this period, probably one of the guy leading to the UCI regulating pad / aero bar +/-10cm
Bar choice makes a huge difference. Hard to say T4 vs some of the others, as you can put different bars on the T4. The T4 with the USE R1 can be as fast as any bike out there. Dean’s experience with the T4 is not universal. The TULA - what Dean ran on his T4 - is a step behind the R1. I’d be most - if not all - of what Dean saw in the T4 vs FRD could be attributed to bars.
Those handhold pods on the USE bars just do not look optimal to me. Way too much A, and at subcritical Re#, A is really important.
Huizenga was the guy that used to ride with his forearms on the base bar? (under the pads) Remember seeing that a few times but thinking…dang.
Bar choice makes a huge difference. Hard to say T4 vs some of the others, as you can put different bars on the T4. The T4 with the USE R1 can be as fast as any bike out there. Dean’s experience with the T4 is not universal. The TULA - what Dean ran on his T4 - is a step behind the R1. I’d be most - if not all - of what Dean saw in the T4 vs FRD could be attributed to bars. Other possibility is the SRM he had on his T4 vs the FRD’s Vision crankset. Aero cranksets make a difference.
Wheel choice is another factor. Not sure if Dean ever ran the HED wheels on his T4. Most of the guys on Team Huub/Wattbike are still riding the T4. And going plenty fast on it… The T4 is still remarkably fast. It’s not clear that there’s an obviously better bike out there. Other bikes as good? I think so.
The Argon is supposed to be really fast. But I think we’ll know more now that Australia is on it instead of BT. And that Avanti is pretty interesting and for sure should be included…
At least based on some reports from the track here, the FRD definitely isn’t indisputably faster than everything else…
The big takeaway that I’ve gotten from talking to a bunch of folks about this is that the bars matter more than the frame. Bars being inclusive of hand position. Helmet + skinsuit pairing is also a big deal. It’s not just what helmet; it’s the helmet + the skinsuit.
Okay, say that you have a T4 hanging up in your garage, what bars are you rocking? The current USE, Zipp, Pro, Enve, other stock gear, or something like the custom work that Wattshop and others are offering for a premium?
interesting, some of the UK guys thought the opposite of the R1 vs. Tulas
Not that this would happen but what do you think is the fastest track frameset and why?
I’ve heard a few things such as the Argon18 Electron Pro is 7-10 watts faster than the Cervelo T4 and that the Felt TA FRD is the “fastest bike in the world†but I haven’t had much luck separating the wheat from the chaff so I’m curious to what you all would think.
1: Argon 18 Electron Pro ($6,450 frameset)
2: Cervelo T5 GB (unreleased to the public)
3: Cervelo T4 ($4,500 frameset)
4: Felt TA FRD Superbike ($25,999 complete bike)
5: Pinarello Bolide HR ($14,999 frameset)
6: Other
You can indeed add :
7 : Look R96
8 : Canyon (Dowsett HR bike), it was older model now CF SLX
9 : BMC (Rohan Dennis HR Bike) or more recent model
10: BT
11 : German FES pursuit bike…
And you need to specify to do what.
An important element on track is BB drop : low BB is more aero (pursuit oriented), but could lead to crash in some cases (sprint, mass start) in step wooden track…
Ah, and again frame is less than 10% of drag, 75 to 80% being rider body for TT, even more for mass start.
So a 5% gain on frame will deliver 0,5% total.
For mass start, just go slightly narrow on the bars win much much more.
Low BB is not faster for the same reason that left hand drive is always faster than RHD.
-SD
Low BB is less Surface, so less SCx. Reason for Cervelo to do that on T4. If you have other info (I mean real info, facts, not just empty sentence), please share.
LHD : yeah, so much an advantage that even peoples owning LHD compatible frame use RHD. Any figure or fact ?
Bullshit is always faster the truth.
I’m not able to give up much of the data I have, but SuperDave is correct that you shouldn’t read into the US Team’s lack of use on the TA. Only one rider currently uses one because he actually purchased it himself. Otherwise, they simply haven’t been available to the athletes. They’d all switch in a heartbeat if offered. AL will be on one in a few weeks or as soon as it’s ready.
Put a good bar on the T4 with Mavic double discs, and you have a hard bike to beat, but that could be said of most modern track bikes. I do think the TK1 is a bit behind everything else aerodynamically, but it’s somewhere near a decade old at this point, so that shouldn’t be a surprise. That also depends a lot on the Bayonet stem setup. I’m interested to see if, along with the new P5, we see a T5 from Cervelo since the shape is so similar. I don’t possess, nor have I seen, data on the Argon 18. The Avanti is good as far I can can tell from the limited data I’ve obtained.
Jim,
If you have time, somewhere there should be a message that I sent you via your website about some testing. I would love to make the trip from Phoenix, if you have time available.
Best and thanks,
Johnathan
Most of the guys on Team Huub/Wattbike are still riding the T4. And going plenty fast on it… The T4 is still remarkably fast. It’s not clear that there’s an obviously better bike out there. Other bikes as good? I think so.
The Argon is supposed to be really fast. .
The Huub/Wattbike team is on the Argon this season.
What an interesting thought! I can see where this might be true in a three or four wheeled vehicle but I can’t see it for a bike. With a bike on a flat surface and no turning, the center of mass of the bike+rider system must be directly above the contact patches because tires cannot provide/support a frontal plane moment. In a turn, the CoM must be positioned in line with the ground reaction force because, again, the tires don’t provide a frontal plane moment.
Can you help me understand why the left drive crank would not simply result in a very very slightly different lean angle? EDIT: Just to clarify, I mean a very very slightly different lean angle for the bike itself but no change in lean angle for the bike+rider system.
This is not a snarky comment, I’m trying to understand if I’ve missed something.
Cheers,
Jim
CoM travels a shorter distance with both examples. Let’s not confuse “peoples” using RHD as evidence that it is faster rather than it is just easier to use RHD because LHD requires proprietary drivetrain (less chain).
In what condition would RHD ever be faster on a velodrome?
I have a T4 hanging up in my garage. Well, it’s actually next to my desk right now, but I digress. Currently I’m running the USE R1 with 50deg NON high-rise extensions and WattShop 10deg pads. Based on fit/feel, I’d like to try 40deg high-rise extensions (which I have, but haven’t cut yet). I also have a pair of 15deg pads, but I dunno if I need the extra tilt. The hard part is that what’s comfortable on the trainer/rollers differs from what’s most comfortable on the track and - even more particularly - what’s most comfortable in the tight corners on Carson differs from what’s most comfortable on the straightaways. I plan to do some testing with Jim this winter on:
- vuka vs r1
- 40 deg standard-rise vs 50-deg standard-rise vs 40deg high-rise hand position, a total delta of probably 40mm or so of hand height.
The R1 replaced a VukaAero + VukaSprint setup with standard Vuka pads/cups and 40deg normal extensions. I have a plan to do some proper benchmark testing this winter of a variety of setups. I was very happy with the Vuka and rode it plenty fast but it’s for sure not as clean on stem clamp area as the R1, though the handgrip area is smaller (though the feel of the handgrips on the R1 is really nice). The R1 is a bit flexier, but I wouldn’t say that it affects anything off the start as the pods give good grip. Very good.
The R1 should be faster than the Vuka because it makes a whole bunch of design concessions for aerodynamics over fit that the Zipp does not. I’d guess-timate that it’s maybe 1-2/10ths faster per lap than the Vuka.
Helmet makes the biggest difference, in my experience, of anything I’ve tested. The Giro Aerohead is the clear “fastest” helmet for me on the track (of the ones I’ve ridden).
I’ve not ridden other tracks, but I do know that Carson is not an “easy” track to ride because of the shape. That may make it harder to parse out aero differences because the line you hold is so critical. But, I also think that clean aero makes a difference in your ability to hold a line. The biggest thing I saw when riding the aerohead was that I was able to be more consistent and hold a better line.
I’m working on scheduling a testing session with Jim on Dec. 15th. If it works for the both of you, I’d be more than happy to have you join in the fun.
Cheers,
JF
I have a T4 hanging up in my garage. Well, it’s actually next to my desk right now, but I digress. Currently I’m running the USE R1 with 50deg NON high-rise extensions and WattShop 10deg pads. Based on fit/feel, I’d like to try 40deg high-rise extensions (which I have, but haven’t cut yet). I also have a pair of 15deg pads, but I dunno if I need the extra tilt. The hard part is that what’s comfortable on the trainer/rollers differs from what’s most comfortable on the track and - even more particularly - what’s most comfortable in the tight corners on Carson differs from what’s most comfortable on the straightaways. I plan to do some testing with Jim this winter on:
- vuka vs r1
- 40 deg standard-rise vs 50-deg standard-rise vs 40deg high-rise hand position, a total delta of probably 40mm or so of hand height.
The R1 replaced a VukaAero + VukaSprint setup with standard Vuka pads/cups and 40deg normal extensions. I have a plan to do some proper benchmark testing this winter of a variety of setups. I was very happy with the Vuka and rode it plenty fast but it’s for sure not as clean on stem clamp area as the R1, though the handgrip area is smaller (though the feel of the handgrips on the R1 is really nice). The R1 is a bit flexier, but I wouldn’t say that it affects anything off the start as the pods give good grip. Very good.
The R1 should be faster than the Vuka because it makes a whole bunch of design concessions for aerodynamics over fit that the Zipp does not. I’d guess-timate that it’s maybe 1-2/10ths faster per lap than the Vuka.
Helmet makes the biggest difference, in my experience, of anything I’ve tested. The Giro Aerohead is the clear “fastest” helmet for me on the track (of the ones I’ve ridden).
I’ve not ridden other tracks, but I do know that Carson is not an “easy” track to ride because of the shape. That may make it harder to parse out aero differences because the line you hold is so critical. But, I also think that clean aero makes a difference in your ability to hold a line. The biggest thing I saw when riding the aerohead was that I was able to be more consistent and hold a better line.
The Huub/Wattbike team is on the Argon this season.
And I don’t see Argon as a sponsor, so it must be a decent frame. Is that the Endura suit? Also from the photos it looks like they each have optimized helmets, shoes, socks, bars, etc. Didn’t see an Aerohead on any of them… interesting. Rather Bell and POC.
https://huubwattbike.com/news-1/2018/10/10/huub-wattbike-launch
I assume it’s a Huub suit they are using.
I love following these guys. Such amazing attention to detail and the results are incredible to see.
Ha, I didn’t even know HUUB made suits! I don’t see it as something they have for sale though. Must be in development.
The Huub/Wattbike team is on the Argon this season.
And I don’t see Argon as a sponsor, so it must be a decent frame. Is that the Endura suit? Also from the photos it looks like they each have optimized helmets, shoes, socks, bars, etc. Didn’t see an Aerohead on any of them… interesting. Rather Bell and POC.
https://huubwattbike.com/news-1/2018/10/10/huub-wattbike-launch
Assuming it attaches properly here’s AL in Berlin on his new Argon 18 EP. If not, here is the link to the photo. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bqs1nNLFMuD/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1kxsty1wu3elp
I’m not sure their association with Argon but they have said it’s faster than the T4. Looks like Victoria Pista Speed tires, Giro empire or Bont shoes depending on the rider, suits of their own design - maybe made by huub(?), various Wattshop custom cockpit goodies (saw a wind tunnel photo of a mono riser but everything else is still two risers), Rule 28 socks, SRM Track cranks and maybe a Notio Konect?
The Huub/Wattbike team is on the Argon this season.
And I don’t see Argon as a sponsor, so it must be a decent frame. Is that the Endura suit? Also from the photos it looks like they each have optimized helmets, shoes, socks, bars, etc. Didn’t see an Aerohead on any of them… interesting. Rather Bell and POC.
https://huubwattbike.com/news-1/2018/10/10/huub-wattbike-launch
Assuming it attaches properly here’s AL in Berlin on his new Argon 18 EP. If not, here is the link to the photo. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bqs1nNLFMuD/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1kxsty1wu3elp
I’m not sure their association with Argon but they have said it’s faster than the T4. Looks like Victoria Pista Speed tires, Giro empire or Bont shoes depending on the rider, suits of their own design - maybe made by huub(?), various Wattshop custom cockpit goodies (saw a wind tunnel photo of a mono riser but everything else is still two risers), Rule 28 socks, SRM Track cranks and maybe a Notio Konect?
POC Tempor was always considered a very fast helmet… but only down in the bars. Obviously a non-concern for track racing. The Bell Javelin is perhaps the more interesting choice, as that wasn’t necessarily viewed as being a particularly revolutionary helmet.
The Argon should be faster than the T4 (even with good bars) because the inline stem / top-tube should be better. And the skinny grips should also be an improvement assuming you’re happy starting on them. But how much?
The other thing that’s relevant here is that TEAM pursuit aerodynamics almost certainly is going to vary a bit from INDIVIDUAL pursuit aerodynamics. I’d guess that helmets are likely more critical for team pursuit on a relative basis because the head sits higher in the stream. I note that both the Tempor and the Javelin have relatively large front vents. Could be that the vents don’t matter much with the draft in team pursuit but that the tail matters even more. In any case, I’d be very surprised if the fastest equipment for a set of four riders was simply the composite fastest of the best four individual setups.
Huizenga was the guy that used to ride with his forearms on the base bar? (under the pads) Remember seeing that a few times but thinking…dang.
Yes
like in this picture, 2008 Olympics : http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/olympics08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/olympics08/6/_DSC9899
Apparently he tried several options to go full mantis, refused by UCI. If anyone know the full story, I’m interested.
I guess these experiences lead to the UCI regulation regarding pad / tip of aerobar limitations (+/- 10cm)