Hypothetical track bike shootout: Argon 18, Cervelo, Felt, Pinarello

Triathlon Forum
1

Not that this shootout would happen but what do you think is the fastest track frameset and why? Edit: I was thinking for about the absolutely fastest pursuit bike but it would be interesting to see if “your” answers would change if the bike had handle mass start events as well.

I’ve heard a few things such as the Argon18 Electron Pro is 7-10 watts faster than the Cervelo T4 and that the Felt TA FRD is the “fastest bike in the world” but I haven’t had much luck separating the wheat from the chaff so I’m curious to what you all would think.

Edit: I also saw Dan Bigham was getting CdA’s under .16 (.1546-.1582) on his Argon 18 at the Boardman Performance Center.

1: Argon 18 Electron Pro ($6,450 frameset)
2: Cervelo T5 GB (unreleased to the public and made by lentus composites)
3: Cervelo T4 ($4,500 frameset)
4: Felt TA FRD Superbike ($25,999 complete bike)
5: Pinarello Bolide HR ($14,999 frameset)
6 : Look R96 ($8,499.99 frameset)
7 : Canyon (Dowsett HR bike)
8 : BMC (Rohan Dennis HR Bike)
9: BT - Bike Technologies Australia
10 : German FES pursuit bike
11: Avanti
12: Koga
99:Other

2

Mass start or TT/pursuit?

If I had unlimited money and zero information I’d go with the Felt TA for my pursuit bike and the T5GB for my mass start bike.

3

The giant sized guy from FitWerks went sub-0.2 CdA on the Felt versus his T4. That was like 10 watts on a super well setup Cervelo.

4

Why isn’t Look in the list???

5

T4/Electron/BT for mortals, maybe the T5/TA if you wanted the absolute top end.

My Fuji did pretty well I thought in the tunnel, but it’s behind something like the T4 for certain (also really made for a mass start bike)

6

Not that this would happen but what do you think is the fastest track frameset and why?

I’ve heard a few things such as the Argon18 Electron Pro is 7-10 watts faster than the Cervelo T4 and that the Felt TA FRD is the “fastest bike in the world” but I haven’t had much luck separating the wheat from the chaff so I’m curious to what you all would think.

1: Argon 18 Electron Pro ($6,450 frameset)
2: Cervelo T5 GB (unreleased to the public)
3: Cervelo T4 ($4,500 frameset)
4: Felt TA FRD Superbike ($25,999 complete bike)
5: Pinarello Bolide HR ($14,999 frameset)
6: Other

You can indeed add :
7 : Look R96
8 : Canyon (Dowsett HR bike), it was older model now CF SLX
9 : BMC (Rohan Dennis HR Bike) or more recent model
10: BT
11 : German FES pursuit bike…

And you need to specify to do what.
An important element on track is BB drop : low BB is more aero (pursuit oriented), but could lead to crash in some cases (sprint, mass start) in step wooden track…

Ah, and again frame is less than 10% of drag, 75 to 80% being rider body for TT, even more for mass start.
So a 5% gain on frame will deliver 0,5% total.

For mass start, just go slightly narrow on the bars win much much more.

7

Not that this would happen but what do you think is the fastest track frameset and why?

I’ve heard a few things such as the Argon18 Electron Pro is 7-10 watts faster than the Cervelo T4 and that the Felt TA FRD is the “fastest bike in the world” but I haven’t had much luck separating the wheat from the chaff so I’m curious to what you all would think.

1: Argon 18 Electron Pro ($6,450 frameset)
2: Cervelo T5 GB (unreleased to the public)
3: Cervelo T4 ($4,500 frameset)
4: Felt TA FRD Superbike ($25,999 complete bike)
5: Pinarello Bolide HR ($14,999 frameset)
6: Other

You can indeed add :
7 : Look R96
8 : Canyon (Dowsett HR bike), it was older model now CF SLX
9 : BMC (Rohan Dennis HR Bike) or more recent model
10: BT
11 : German FES pursuit bike…

And you need to specify to do what.
An important element on track is BB drop : low BB is more aero (pursuit oriented), but could lead to crash in some cases (sprint, mass start) in step wooden track…

Ah, and again frame is less than 10% of drag, 75 to 80% being rider body for TT, even more for mass start.
So a 5% gain on frame will deliver 0,5% total.

For mass start, just go slightly narrow on the bars win much much more.

Low BB is not faster for the same reason that left hand drive is always faster than RHD.
-SD

8

The giant sized guy from FitWerks went sub-0.2 CdA on the Felt versus his T4. That was like 10 watts on a super well setup Cervelo.

I was just going to post that. For guys riding at Ashton speeds for example there is up to ~2s over 4km of free speed to be had.

9

What about for kilo?

10

I was just going to post that. For guys riding at Ashton speeds for example there is up to ~2s over 4km of free speed to be had.

For Ashton it’s going to be interesting seeing whether all the obvious avenues for more speed (e.g. going from the TK1 to TA as just one example) trumps the apparently freakish conditions he had (maybe even for Aguas.)

11

I was just going to post that. For guys riding at Ashton speeds for example there is up to ~2s over 4km of free speed to be had.

For Ashton it’s going to be interesting seeing whether all the obvious avenues for more speed (e.g. going from the TK1 to TA as just one example) trumps the apparently freakish conditions he had (maybe even for Aguas.)

With TP, Gavin, Ashton all with ~540w for 4:07 on tap it’ll always come down to the dozens of little things that creates an outlier performance. In Aguas, all of the little things seemed to go in his favor even with a couple big boxes left unchecked.

I’m pretty sure there’s no 63T or 62T rings for the TA crankset yet but I’d expect that he’ll have the new bike by Worlds.

-SD

12

What about for kilo?

The kilo is a shorter event than the pursuit so the total time the aerodynamics and mechanical advantage benefits a rider would also be shorter.
The kilo is ridden on the same surface and in the same air and at the same speeds so it would scale.

-SD

13

Not that this would happen but what do you think is the fastest track frameset and why?

I’ve heard a few things such as the Argon18 Electron Pro is 7-10 watts faster than the Cervelo T4 and that the Felt TA FRD is the “fastest bike in the world” but I haven’t had much luck separating the wheat from the chaff so I’m curious to what you all would think.

1: Argon 18 Electron Pro ($6,450 frameset)
2: Cervelo T5 GB (unreleased to the public)
3: Cervelo T4 ($4,500 frameset)
4: Felt TA FRD Superbike ($25,999 complete bike)
5: Pinarello Bolide HR ($14,999 frameset)
6: Other

You can indeed add :
7 : Look R96
8 : Canyon (Dowsett HR bike), it was older model now CF SLX
9 : BMC (Rohan Dennis HR Bike) or more recent model
10: BT
11 : German FES pursuit bike…

And you need to specify to do what.
An important element on track is BB drop : low BB is more aero (pursuit oriented), but could lead to crash in some cases (sprint, mass start) in step wooden track…

Ah, and again frame is less than 10% of drag, 75 to 80% being rider body for TT, even more for mass start.
So a 5% gain on frame will deliver 0,5% total.

For mass start, just go slightly narrow on the bars win much much more.

Low BB is not faster for the same reason that left hand drive is always faster than RHD.
-SD

Low BB is less Surface, so less SCx. Reason for Cervelo to do that on T4. If you have other info (I mean real info, facts, not just empty sentence), please share.

LHD : yeah, so much an advantage that even peoples owning LHD compatible frame use RHD. Any figure or fact ?

Bullshit is always faster the truth.

14

Not that this would happen but what do you think is the fastest track frameset and why?

I’ve heard a few things such as the Argon18 Electron Pro is 7-10 watts faster than the Cervelo T4 and that the Felt TA FRD is the “fastest bike in the world” but I haven’t had much luck separating the wheat from the chaff so I’m curious to what you all would think.

1: Argon 18 Electron Pro ($6,450 frameset)
2: Cervelo T5 GB (unreleased to the public)
3: Cervelo T4 ($4,500 frameset)
4: Felt TA FRD Superbike ($25,999 complete bike)
5: Pinarello Bolide HR ($14,999 frameset)
6: Other

You can indeed add :
7 : Look R96
8 : Canyon (Dowsett HR bike), it was older model now CF SLX
9 : BMC (Rohan Dennis HR Bike) or more recent model
10: BT
11 : German FES pursuit bike…

And you need to specify to do what.
An important element on track is BB drop : low BB is more aero (pursuit oriented), but could lead to crash in some cases (sprint, mass start) in step wooden track…

Ah, and again frame is less than 10% of drag, 75 to 80% being rider body for TT, even more for mass start.
So a 5% gain on frame will deliver 0,5% total.

For mass start, just go slightly narrow on the bars win much much more.

Low BB is not faster for the same reason that left hand drive is always faster than RHD.
-SD

Low BB is less Surface, so less SCx. Reason for Cervelo to do that on T4. If you have other info (I mean real info, facts, not just empty sentence), please share.

LHD : yeah, so much an advantage that even peoples owning LHD compatible frame use RHD. Any figure or fact ?
Bullshit is always faster the truth.

CoM travels a shorter distance with both examples. Let’s not confuse “peoples” using RHD as evidence that it is faster rather than it is just easier to use RHD because LHD requires proprietary drivetrain (less chain).

In what condition would RHD ever be faster on a velodrome?

15

CoM travels a shorter distance with both examples

I understand the point.

BB :
So, increase BB hight by 2 meters will help ?
You mention the advantage, but you forget the disadvantage (aero), and you do not supply any element to compare them.
You assume CoM travel advantage beat Aero disadvantage. An proof ?

LHD :
easy to understand, but when I see Ashton Lambie and the US team do not use it, while riding on Felt, I’m wandering why.

16

In what condition would RHD ever be faster on a velodrome?

If you rode in a clockwise direction? Is the advantage of LHD purely due to the COM change or is there an aerodynamic advantage? Besides LHD what other big boxes did Lambie leave unchecked?

17

What about for kilo?

The kilo is a shorter event than the pursuit so the total time the aerodynamics and mechanical advantage benefits a rider would also be shorter.
The kilo is ridden on the same surface and in the same air and at the same speeds so it would scale.

-SD

Same speeds ?

kilo avg. (WR) is 63.95 km/h
Pursuit avg. (WR) is 58.25 km/h
Close to 6 km/h difference.

Since work is exponentially increased with speed, I would assume aero is as much if not more important in shorter events.
Difference is probably in the frame structure, to be able to withstand the brutal start of the strack sprint specialists.

Louis :slight_smile:

18

What about for kilo?

The kilo is a shorter event than the pursuit so the total time the aerodynamics and mechanical advantage benefits a rider would also be shorter.
The kilo is ridden on the same surface and in the same air and at the same speeds so it would scale.

-SD
Same speeds ?
kilo avg. (WR) is 63.95 km/h
Pursuit avg. (WR) is 58.25 km/h
Close to 6 km/h difference.
Since work is exponentially increased with speed, I would assume aero is as much if not more important in shorter events.
Difference is probably in the frame structure, to be able to withstand the brutal start of the strack sprint specialists.
Louis :slight_smile:

Yes, same speeds as it relates to the aerodynamics in play. 5.7km/h doesn’t change the math. The start is the biggest difference in the average speed delta. Nobody starts a pursuit with a 17s first lap and nobody is “aero” in those first ~10 strokes as the need for max possible force applied to the pedals far overcomes aero gains in position although there is some benefit to be had once out of turn 2.

19

OK, that makes sense.

back to the OP question, I would assume the ‘‘special’’ British Cycling bikes would come to mind also ?

LOuis :slight_smile:

20

Don’t forget this one: https://cyclingtips.com/2016/08/avanti-unveils-two-new-track-bikes-for-new-zealands-olympic-squad/

https://cdn-cyclingtips.pressidium.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Pursuit_pista-33.jpg
.