the average triathlete swimmer, like me, has such horrendous technique that some lessons and 2k per week can and does result in big improvements.
WTF, 2k per week???
I debate getting in the pool if I can only do that much in a day!
Come to think of it, the little kids I teach swim lessons to probably end up doing more than that each week. 
You may be able to *learn *some techniques on 2k per week, but you need quite a bit more volume to actually *ingrain *those techniques into your stroke.
depending upon the individual and my initial evaluation iâll either throw them right into âjustâ aerobic conditioning or aerobic condition with some technique work. and by that i mean 6x50s or 8x50s at the end of WU to solidify some ideas and muscle patterns and then we get on our way
i believe swimming (fast) to be 51% economy and 49% efficiency
Hmmmmm, weird that weâre on the same page here! Probably just coincidence.
But I think âtriathlon fastâ and âswimming fastâ are totally different WRT your ratios especially when you look at the pro field. A 53minute IM swimmer is often considered âfastâ by AG standards. Watch a pro swimmer who is 53-55min. Theyâre efficiency would suggest that they would be much slower. Their advantage is the fitness to swing the balance.
good points you make
n=1
i know that one of the reasons that i can slip back in fitness yet still stick it to the front group is because my pull is very efficient. similarly because my efficiency is so good that when i finally DO add economy (fitness) to my technique my speed really takes off. see the last 3 weeks for evidence of that. despite training for hold speed for 3.8k my 200s all out at the end of sessions have plummeted.
i believe swimming (fast) to be 51% economy and 49% efficiency
Where do the carbon goggles come in?
i got faster on ~2k a week
from 24th in age group in the swim in an oly to fourth. focusing on techqniue. i got a coach
are you suggesting I am a unique talent? should I go pro at swimming?
=)
I think you continue to underestimate how bad lots of triathlete swimmers are. It doesnât take 5k+ a week to like, keep yer head underwater, for instance
or to rotate your body
i dunno maybe for some people it does =)
the average triathlete swimmer, like me, has such horrendous technique that some lessons and 2k per week can and does result in big improvements.
WTF, 2k per week???
I debate getting in the pool if I can only do that much in a day!
Come to think of it, the little kids I teach swim lessons to probably end up doing more than that each week.
You may be able to *learn *some techniques on 2k per week, but you need quite a bit more volume to actually *ingrain *those techniques into your stroke.
lets starts with no more pizzas for you
.
sonofaâŚ
You probably have some talent. Or the people youâre racing against are amazingly slow. What was your swim time for the Oly where you came 4th?
24min, no wetsuit
that was improved from 25mins with wetsuit in the same body of water a month or so before.
went from training not enough, and no 1 on 1 instruction, to training even less with some 1 on 1 instruction.
You probably have some talent. Or the people youâre racing against are amazingly slow. What was your swim time for the Oly where you came 4th?
i believe swimming (fast) to be 51% economy and 49% efficiency
Where do the carbon goggles come in?
I like the way you thinkâŚIâm not slow, my equipment is making me slow. Hell, if it wasnât for my non-aerohelmet holding me back, I would probably be 5-10mph faster (at least). Now if only I can find some way to blame my shoes for my run splits I will be setâŚ
24min, no wetsuit
that was improved from 25mins with wetsuit in the same body of water a month or so before.
went from training not enough, and no 1 on 1 instruction, to training even less with some 1 on 1 instruction.
You probably have some talent. Or the people youâre racing against are amazingly slow. What was your swim time for the Oly where you came 4th?
Sounds pretty good to me.
For reference - my Oly swim PB is 23 minutes. That was good for 20th in a field of ~85. I swam 1:03 at IMC. And I swim a hell of a lot more than 2k most weeks. So yeah, you probably owe it to yourself to swim a bit more and see how fast you can get.
That is very very true. Although I do triathlons now, I was a swimmer first.
I used to wonder why more triathletes didnât make the leap to FOP in the water.
I joined a masters team this summer. The team is a big club and it has a triathlon group and a swimmer group. Over the summer, the two groups often swam in the same pool at the same time (during the winter, numbers keep them in different pools). After watching the triathlon group, I donât wonder anymore.
Frequently stopping mid set to fix goggles, go to the bathroom in the middle of the main set, refusing to do drill sets and a number of other things that would have gotten me kicked out of practice or doing fly for the rest of the day as a swimmer. But donât worry - they didnât put lane ropes in to simulate âopen water swimmingâ
We have a few different coaches but the one coaching the triathletes I know as he coached a nearby townâs swim team when I was a kid. I asked him why he let them get away with it. He said he gave up; everyone always said they were tired from a run or a ride or a race. BTW, he is a very good swim coach and swimmer who has been coaching for 30+ years and coached a number of athletes to at least Olympic Trials over the years.
So based on my experience, the average AG triathlete isnât swimming faster because they donât dedicate themselves to the swim workout. Itseazyâs swimmers got faster because they dedicated themselves and worked smart and hard.
I think CDWâs post best describes and avg AGer. I will just add my personal experience.
I am a father of two, full time job with traveling trough the roof, however week on/ week off schedule. Live and train in Kansas City.
In order to attend masters team practice, the only and poor show in town at that is 30min drive away, to have a workout handed down to me and no stroke/drill work and no coaching, just here is the set do it. So I watch other swimmers and do what they do.
15min away is another pool where I swim alone. Above mentioned isnât worth it for driving 30min.
Also I am sub 29min HIM, I would say that puts me FOP but not the first group out of the water.
So I train alone using books and videos, alone, no coaches. There are bunch of these so called USAT level 1 coaches that attended the 2 day seminar, have a handful of races under their belt and are offering coaching service. Yeah, I bet quality coaching.
So, that is what most of us face living away from big triathlon and swimming meccas of this country. What is the ROI, not much. That is why I have to make a decision to shift focus on bike/run where ROI is much larger for us mortals with jobs, kids and no quality swim coaching near by.
i got faster on ~2k a week
from 24th in age group in the swim in an oly to fourth. focusing on techqniue. i got a coach
are you suggesting I am a unique talent? should I go pro at swimming?
=)
I think you continue to underestimate how bad lots of triathlete swimmers are. It doesnât take 5k+ a week to like, keep yer head underwater, for instance
or to rotate your body
i dunno maybe for some people it does =)
the average triathlete swimmer, like me, has such horrendous technique that some lessons and 2k per week can and does result in big improvements.
WTF, 2k per week???
I debate getting in the pool if I can only do that much in a day!
Come to think of it, the little kids I teach swim lessons to probably end up doing more than that each week.
You may be able to *learn *some techniques on 2k per week, but you need quite a bit more volume to actually *ingrain *those techniques into your stroke.
I don't know if you should go pro, but it sounds like you do have some talent. It would be interesting to see just how fast you could go if you started putting in some real swimming time.
I know that for some people, things like body rotation can be pretty difficult to figure out. Iâve been swimming for years, and I really only recently have started to nail some of my techniques.
So if it only took you 2k a week to get it down, congrats to you! Now get out there and start doing 30k weeks!
And trust me I know just how bad a lot of triathlete swimmers are. I went from being a mediocre swimmer to being a FOP triathlete swimmer with no additional effort. Lets me feel really fast, up until I have to start running.
In Reply To
i believe swimming (fast) to be 51% economy and 49% efficiency
Where do the carbon goggles come in?
I actually really want a pair of those 
Do you think weâll ever see people swimming with compression socks on, and carbon googles too? Thatâd be great.
Thereâs a lot to learn in swimming. So many neuromuscular connections to be made to swim with correct and efficient form and it takes time to build those paths.
And as MarkyV and others have said, you canât expect to get fast by swimming easily and doing drills. You have to put work in it, and hurt in the water, just as you do on the bike or the run.
Last week I was helping at a race since I am still hurt. Twice during the morning, a guy in my AG come up to me and started talking. They both commented
that a few years back they came out of the swim with me, around 27-29 for an Oly, and were looking to beat me. But, they both stated, 3 years ago, something changed
with me since they no longer saw my in the race other than the swim start. I just smiled and said 3 years ago I started 5 days a week, 12 months a year masters swimming.
I went down to a 21 to 24 Oly. Told them of all the things I have tried to change over the years, year round swimming was the number 1 thing on my list. And it not just
helped swim times. It stopped me from panic attacks in the water. Stopped the rough water. Helped my energy in the bike and run.
Now that I cannot do masters, I am trying to swim hard by myself, but it is just not the same.
So, I love when an average racer says they cannot find the time to swim. I bet if I asked the TeamUSA folks I go to worlds with, they all swim a decent amount, or have
swam for years. You do not get towards the FOP in a race, at least in the Oly distance, if you are not decent at all three legs.
Dave
Sure, jumping in cold water sucks and swimming back and forth is as bad as a treadmill or spin bike.
I couldnât disagree more. Iâd rather watch paint dry than run an hour on a treadmill.
I was just looking over my training log for my yearly distances. In 2007 (the first year I kept a log), I did about 2.5 million yards. This number has gradually decreased as my bike/run mileage has increased. In 2007, thereâs no way I dropped 2.5 minutes off my 4K swiim time. In fact, now I find that I must do nearly this volume just to maintain my speed. I think the 1 minute per million yard thing can only be an estimate based on swimmers of a certain speed⌠AND it only applies to those who are still learning the sport - not to veterans.
Just as a point of reference, 2007 was the last year that I was a swimmer first and a triathlete second, so I put in about 50% of my time in the water. Prior to that, circa my college days and just after, I was probably doing on the order of 5-6 million yards per year. It was the norm to do 100K or more per week. 25 and 30K days were not uncommon. Iâve been completely neglecting my swim this year and Iâm around a million with 3 months to go in the year.