http://www.xtri.com/tri_tech_display.aspx?riIDReport=5943&CAT=4&xref=xx
I can’t even imagine this:
“As for me… I’m far over 5 million meters for the last decade. Something I found was that once I was under 60 minutes for my IM swim, I had to swim one million meters per minute improvement. Not everyone is able to set their lives up to achieve that.”
I would imagine that a “real” collegiate or pro swimmer would far exceed that even but wow. No wonder I suck.
I’m really basing this on nothing, but 1 million metres per minute of improvement over 3800? Seems like the ROI should be slightly higher for most people?
Having spoken with a few swimmers about the amount of swimming they do I have begun to realize that my poor swimming is a direct result of my lack of effort/time in the pool. I think when I started I feel into the whole technique is everything idea. Obviously technique is important but not anymore then the amount of time in the pool necessary to cement that technique into your muscles.
So now I try not to say I am a bad swimmer, I say I am a lazy swimmer.
That’s typical, I think. I would say I’ve averaged right around 1,000,000m for the last four years (and will come close this year as well). As I’ve said many times before, age group athletes (as a group) tend to seriously neglect their swimming. I doesn’t just help the swim.
I’d also agree that it’s about 1minute per year for IM swimming that you can improve once you are a “good” swimmer. I.e., I expect to be a 48-49 minute swimmer in about two years. Usually the jumps happen in bigger chunks though, like 51, 51, 49, 49 because the packs at IM seem to be about 2-3minutes apart, and once you finally make it into the pack ahead, you get whisked along in a draft. I.e., a 49:30 swimmer can get out in 49, whereas a 50:00 swimmer will often come out closer to 51, simply because it’s not worth it to not draft. So two minutes per two years is probably closer to what actually happens in terms of racing, even as your improvements in the pool are more gradual.
I’m really basing this on nothing, but 1 million metres per minute of improvement over 3800? Seems like the ROI should be slightly higher for most people?
That rate kicks in once you are sub hour IM swim (accdg to the article). The faster you are, the harder it is to go faster. Someone swimming a 1:30 (which is most people) will get a much higher ROI.
I’ve only done one IM swim, :59, and I’ve been swimming less than half that (about 450K yards) for the past 3 years. I don’t expect to be able to improve on that time much on that yardage.
work on technique until you are an FOP triathlete swimmer
then swim a shitload so you can be a little slower than a real swimmer
=)
Having spoken with a few swimmers about the amount of swimming they do I have begun to realize that my poor swimming is a direct result of my lack of effort/time in the pool. I think when I started I feel into the whole technique is everything idea. Obviously technique is important but not anymore then the amount of time in the pool necessary to cement that technique into your muscles.
So now I try not to say I am a bad swimmer, I say I am a lazy swimmer.
I would agree on the neglecting. I hardly ever swim, however, i am also not under the delusion that I should be better than I am. 
I wonder if age groupers don’t swim as much for lack of facilities or access times to those facilities. Or if the majority of them are just lazy like me.
5 million meters in 10 years in terms of volume is very little really. that’s 500K per year, or less than 10K/week…it’s the consistency that’s impressive.
I don’t agree with the 1 million meters per minute improvement for a 60-minute IM swimmer. Getting down to 55-56 is not that hard with proper coaching. Now, getting down to the low 50’s or under, that will take some serious work…
…if you are swimming on average 10K per week and do a heavy 12 week swim block of say 30-40K per week (an additional 200-300K), that would yield similar gains if not more.
Yeah, that sort of makes sense. I’m around the same ballpark as you, a couple minutes slower for IM and similar yearly distance in the pool. I’m pondering doubling my yearly swim distance for 2010 and seeing what happens.
I’m more interested in HIM than IM so that’s a bit easier to justify in my mind, although I agree with Rappstar that people underestimate the effect a crappy swim has on the rest of your day.
**So now I try not to say I am a bad swimmer, I say I am a lazy swimmer. **
An honest self-analysis and one most people would not like to see in themselves. However, I’m not sure it is all due to laziness. Sure, jumping in cold water sucks and swimming back and forth is as bad as a treadmill or spin bike. However, the greater issue for most triathletes is convenience to train. If I had a pool in my back yard I’d be a much better swimmer. Duh. For most triathletes, the ROI for swimming time (not training time, but the actual time driving to, changing, swimming and changing back and driving home) is fairly low compared to cycling and running which they can do out their door or even inside their house. In the end, time constrained folks have to make these decisions. It’s easy for Jordan to say that most triathletes don’t work on their swim enough because he has all day to fit in his workouts and drive to a pool. What else is he going to do if he doesn’t swim every day? That’s not the case for the average MOPer trying to get better. I’m assuming Jordan has also had access to some pretty good, regular swim coaching, which the MOPer also might not have readily available.
Chad
I think that is somewhat faulty logic…you have to learn the technique and swim a shitload with it in order to see any improvements.
It is like I always tell my students with math- I can teach you how to solve problems, but in order to know how to do it you need to then take the time to apply that knowledge. It is amazing how many of them think simply being taught how to something with no effort on their part is sufficient to learn something. You need to be taught it and then you need to then apply that knowledge over and over and over and over…ad nauseum.
CDW, you’ve hit the nail on the head.
Doing overdistance on swim training is a great way to build overall endurance without stressing your body the way the bike and run do. But you gotta be pushing 4k yards per workout. And if you are really serious, each workout can go as high as 10k (usually not more except in major teardown weeks.)
I have plenty of facilities: L. Michigan a mile from work, 5 pools open from 5am to 9-10 pm within 3 miles or work/home, and still manage to get in a mere 5k-10k per week during the season and even fewer in the fall/winter. I chalk it up to laziness.
I think sometimes on slowtwitch theres a disconnect between the average triathlete and average elite triathete.
the average triathlete swimmer, like me, has such horrendous technique that some lessons and 2k per week can and does result in big improvements.
more of course, would be better, if there are no time constraints =)
I think that is somewhat faulty logic…you have to learn the technique and swim a shitload with it in order to see any improvements.
It is like I always tell my students with math- I can teach you how to solve problems, but in order to know how to do it you need to then take the time to apply that knowledge. It is amazing how many of them think simply being taught how to something with no effort on their part is sufficient to learn something. You need to be taught it and then you need to then apply that knowledge over and over and over and over…ad nauseum.
I tend to agree with Jordan that there are waaaay more people like Yknot…lazy swimmers.
I worked with a number of local athletes who have made HUGE strides with their swimming in the past year. All MOP athletes with no swimming background. Their friends and training partners have asked them how they improved so much. Here’s the secret - they threw away the stoke drills, the toys (no fins, snorkels or pull buoys) and trained! I was rarely standing over them on the deck offering feedback. I gave them the work and they did it.
I see a lot of triathletes make the effort to fit a swim into their schedule, show up to the pool, jump in and then paddle back and forth for an hour of which they only swim 1500m. If my athletes have an hour to swim, they do a progressive warm-up for 10-15minutes, ending with some faster stuff. Then, it’s right into a 40-45 main set. People who swim 2-3 hours per week don’t have the time to dick around with drills. Get in, do some work and get out!
I, like YNot, bought into the “technique is important” after talking with a number of former swimmers who could swim sub 20 off 8K a week. That didn’t seem fair. But then if you looked at how much I was doing, well, that 8K was still double my average swimming for a year. I think it comes down to this–I ride and average of 7-10 hours a week, I’ve average 6 hours a week running over five YEARS–how can I expect to be a good competitor at an aerobic sport if I swim less than three hours a week and I don’t have any particular talent in that sport? I’m a runner. On three hours of running a week I ran a 33:30 10K.
I’m not a swimmer, so something more is required.
Unfortunately that something more requires a year-round pool and the time to get away to use it. That doesn’t exist for me, so I will have to make do with the Vasa.
Chad
I, like YNot, bought into the “technique is important” after talking with a number of former swimmers who could swim sub 20 off 8K a week. That didn’t seem fair. But then if you looked at how much I was doing, well, that 8K was still double my average swimming for a year. I think it comes down to this–I ride and average of 7-10 hours a week, I’ve average 6 hours a week running over five YEARS–how can I expect to be a good competitor at an aerobic sport if I swim less than three hours a week and I don’t have any particular talent in that sport? I’m a runner. On three hours of running a week I ran a 33:30 10K.
I’m not a swimmer, so something more is required.
Unfortunately that something more requires a year-round pool and the time to get away to use it. That doesn’t exist for me, so I will have to make do with the Vasa.
Chad
I hate you.
LOL - you’ve got some serious run-talent there!
Same with the athletes I coach. They only have so many hours in a week, 3 hours of swimming would be an above average week but they still manage to get faster by doing the right work during those hours. Eventually you’re going to hit a ceiling within those 3 hours. I think many AG athletes would be wise to ask themselves if time really is their limiter with swimming. * *
goood point
its easy to slack a bunch in the pool when you aren’t good at it. its so awful being there going back and forth
BUT WE MUST SWIM!
I think many AG athletes would be wise to ask themselves if time really is their limiter with swimming. * *