155 isn’t emaciated for me. I was 137 at this height in HS 
So did you go on the cabbage and water diet and 100 mile per week program or did you just fast forward to the tapeworm diet with the East Africa approved daily double 1 hour run at 20 kph, Mon to Satuday, followed by the Sunday 2 hour run at 19 kph? Just wondering if this thread put us at that final approved program…don’t laugh, one year at the Seoul Marathon hotel where I was staying on biz a bunch of Kenyans pointed to the size of my plate and “muscle” and said the only reason why my PB was only 2:48 was because my plate was too big, I was not running enough and I needed to go down from 138 lbs to 118!!!
I think I scared everyone off this thread with talk about the Macca approved cabbage and water diet…but being a fast marathon is tougher than being a supermodel. At least supermodels get to be beautiful and get paid a boat load of $$$…fast marathoners are waif thin toothpicks who disappear if they turn sideways and at best may have some bragging rights on letsrun.com :-).
Thanks for all the good advice.
Here I think would be a nice synthesis.
3 weeks hard, 1 week recovery
Hard weeks:
Long run- only twice per month. And shorter 16-20 miles. (Maybe do one split day 12 miles morning, 6 evening on non long run week).
Hard workout 1- Tempo run #1- 10 miles @ 6:40- 6:25 pace. (Hopefully pushing towards 6:25 by week 10).
Hard workout 2- Tempo + Interval workout- 3- 5 miles @ 6:15, plus 5 x 800s @ 2:55-2:48 (or 1000s, 1200s)
Hard workout 3- 10 miles with hills or fartleks
Easy run 1- 4-8 miles
Easy run 2 4-8 miles
Easy run 3- 10 miles
2 x 40 min bike
2 x 20 minute swim
Summary 48-65 miles, 13-26 miles at (or faster than 6:30), only 2 hrs swim bike.
Recovery weeks- 4 x 4 miles easy, 3 hrs swim/bike.
Currently weigh 167. Hope to loose 5 lbs of fat. (Go from 8% bf to 6.5%). Will have to stop eating crap- damn!!!
Will hopefully loose 2 lbs muscle.
Goal weight 160.
Foreseeable problems-
- Over reaching- from too many hard runs.
Solutions- remember to do lots of moderate quality running, no need to kill it on Tuesday, if I will be running hard again on Thursday. - Can’t loose weight- let’s face it. It is easier for me to go from 200-170, then from 167-160.
Solution- none. But even 3 lbs would help.
This is very close to how I trained for last marathon. I started with almost same goal as you of going sub 2:50 from previous PR of 2:53 and far exceeded the goal. I was also same height and weight on race day as you. I would say in regards to your foreseeable problem of too many hard runs that if you are feeling burnt out from the long runs then take a day off, just don’t make it a habit. Your planned recovery weeks I would do a little bit more than 16 miles for the week though, maybe 25-35 (which is still a lot less than your other weeks). Losing weight would be a bonus but don’t let yourself get injured due to lack of nutrients for proper recovery and healing. Which race do you plan on attempting the PR?
you remind me of me in my youth, I had really solid times for 10m - 15m races but could never quite seal the deal in the marathon, nor was my 5k much faster than my 5m pace. I’m 6-1 and weighed 165-ish when I was running a lot.
Looking back at my logs, I was good about getting on the track and racing quite a lot, maybe too much and I suffered through my share of 20 milers, but perhaps they were too slow.
I think your half time is an indication of your fitness and perhaps your disappointment at the marathon is related to your need for some calories to get your bigger body down the road for the extra time, assuming all the training is in the right place. I suspect some tempo at race pace or faster might be the key too.
I never took in carbohydrates during a marathon because the products were not available at the time and generally flamed out at 20 miles. I wonder if you would do better by taking some gu or something on board during your longer runs if it doesn’t bother your stomach?
Good luck, when I was younger the 2.50 was the standard for men to qualify for boston and I really struggled with it, but then things fell into place and I was able to hold 2.37 pace until the wheels (always) fell off at 20, leaving me to bring it home on the starter motor in 2.43. Never again…
I’ve rarely seen so much bad running advice compressed into so few posts!
Your problem isn’t 800m - 5k speed, or needing more speed work, or too long of a long run, or running too many miles (LOL). It’s pretty much the opposite of those things, I’d argue.
You aren’t too heavy and have the raw speed (1:20 HM), you just fade as you go long because you don’t have the miles in your legs. Drop the other sports for a bit and increase the miles. Worry about holding race pace, tempos and workouts to improve your threshold speed. Sure, do some fast economy work to hopefully make your running more efficient. But the real wins are going to be the mileage, and time spent around race pace.
Quoted for truth.
I dislike failure.
But here goes.
The attempt was a failure .
I managed to hold 6:27 pace for 20 miles. Then approx:
Mile 21- 6:45
22- 7:15
23- 7:30
24- 7:45
25- 8:15
26 - 8:30
(7 minutes off goal)
To be fair I “chose” this outcome. I might have run 2:52. A “small PR.”
But “who needs a small PR - better to go for it or die trying” I thought.
What advice I followed:
- Increased my mileage: 45 to 75 mpw
- Greatly reduced bike and swim
- Did not do long- long runs
What advice I did not follow:
- Loose weight- 75 mpw of running is less calories burnt than my triathlon training.
I did not diet. My swim/bike muscles turned to fat and my weight stayed constant. - Eliminate long runs - or split them up. My long runs were 15-19. Less than I had done in the past, but still longish.
Failure:
I was only 6 miles off of goal pace or 7 sec/mile (if I had paced correctly).
I believe the following to be THE most significant weakness:
1)I needed EITHER a long long runs- 22+ miles
OR a very long marathon pace tempo run 12-16 miles
And I needed this CONSISTENTLY.
I was comfortable running 6:10 for 8-10 mile tempos. I was comfortable running 13 at 6:27 in training (but only did this only once). I was even comfortable racing 6:27 for 20 miles. (I think I could of held 6:22 for 20 miles).
I was NOT comfortable running 26 at 6:27.
Jack Daniels recommends lots of marathon pace 12-16 mile runs.
That might have worked.
I think a couple of 22+ runs might have helped instead.
Obviously- been faster, fitter, thinner, less foolish, or had another month in the training cycle - would have helped.
Funny moment- this race had a simultaneous 13.1 and 26.2 start and a common finish line.
You know things are going terribly wrong - when half marathon runners are outrunning you near the finish!!
If you ask me the fitness for sub 2h50 is there, your main mistake was your weight. It is critical for fast marathons and training for them: you won’t be able to get quality training if you are too heavy.
Way to go big!!
You’ll get it next time.
Well-yeah too big.
But I was running with two other guys.
Both more muscular, both fatter.
(No doubt both faster for 5k also)
They were with me at mile 20.
8 minutes ahead by mile 26.
6’1- 167 - too big for a 2:20 marathon- definitely.
For a 2:48- not so much.
Of course 10 lbs = 5 seconds/mile.
But 167 to 157 is a lot of work- that is 10 x more difficult than going from 200 to 170.
1)I needed EITHER a long long runs- 22+ miles
OR a very long marathon pace tempo run 12-16 miles
And I needed this CONSISTENTLY.
I’ve only run 3 open marathons so I am no expert…but I think a 22+ mile training run for a marathon isn’t needed. I do think a 16 mile run with 6-8 miles at HM pace is extremely useful (say 8 x 1 mile at HM pace w/2 min easy in between)
20+ mile runs beat me down if I do moderate intensity. I can run 16-17 (I go by time so that is 2ish hours with some hills) with a good bit of intensity and recovery is much better. If I keep it easy 20-22 is fine, but incorporating intervals gets sketchy.
Weight makes a difference. I was in better cardio shape in 2014 but was a few seconds off my 2013 per mile pace in the same races. The difference was 182-3 vs. 190. Could have been wind, conditions, etc…but it was in numerout races.
Oh yeah, and like you, when I go run heavy I gain weight. Long rides really burn calories and I like beer. I almost think a long Sat ride followed by a long Sun run is the best to keep weight down and engine primed even if it means less running miles.
I dislike failure.
But here goes.
The attempt was a failure .
I managed to hold 6:27 pace for 20 miles. Then approx:
Mile 21- 6:45
22- 7:15
23- 7:30
24- 7:45
25- 8:15
26 - 8:30
(7 minutes off goal)
To be fair I “chose” this outcome. I might have run 2:52. A “small PR.”
But “who needs a small PR - better to go for it or die trying” I thought.
What advice I followed:
- Increased my mileage: 45 to 75 mpw
- Greatly reduced bike and swim
- Did not do long- long runs
What advice I did not follow:
- Loose weight- 75 mpw of running is less calories burnt than my triathlon training.
I did not diet. My swim/bike muscles turned to fat and my weight stayed constant. - Eliminate long runs - or split them up. My long runs were 15-19. Less than I had done in the past, but still longish.
Failure:
I was only 6 miles off of goal pace or 7 sec/mile (if I had paced correctly).
I believe the following to be THE most significant weakness:
1)I needed EITHER a long long runs- 22+ miles
OR a very long marathon pace tempo run 12-16 miles
And I needed this CONSISTENTLY.
I was comfortable running 6:10 for 8-10 mile tempos. I was comfortable running 13 at 6:27 in training (but only did this only once). I was even comfortable racing 6:27 for 20 miles. (I think I could of held 6:22 for 20 miles).
I was NOT comfortable running 26 at 6:27.
Jack Daniels recommends lots of marathon pace 12-16 mile runs.
That might have worked.
I think a couple of 22+ runs might have helped instead.
Obviously- been faster, fitter, thinner, less foolish, or had another month in the training cycle - would have helped.
Funny moment- this race had a simultaneous 13.1 and 26.2 start and a common finish line.
You know things are going terribly wrong - when half marathon runners are outrunning you near the finish!!
It is easiest to Monday morning QB this but here goes. Yes, I thin you were a bit heavy…5 lbs lighter would have gone a long way in the last 6 miles. I think if you ran the first 20 miles at 6:39 and given away say 20x10 seconds (say 3.5 minutes), then in the last 6 miles you may have had an easier time staying sub 7…
Speaking from experience back in the day, my best marathon was 1:23+1:25 for which I was the leanest. I ran several in 1:22 to 1:25 and did the second half in 1:30-1:33. There was around 10 years of running sub 3 every year but the second half was always a positive split because I was too heavy for my first half split. Just getting lighter and running almost 1:24 in the first half instead of 1:22 made a big diff. I think I mentioned one marathon where I just went all out and ran the first half in 1:19 to see what I could sustain and as expected blew up in the tail end…but if you move fast enough early you still end up with a good time on paper, but not a good time relative to fitness (that day was 2:51).
At some point for age grouper triathletes wanting to run sub 2:50 you can’t sustain more mileage, so the path to the fast time is dropping a pound per week by eating less in the last 6 weeks…endurance is not going to change that much, so then you show up lighter on race day with a decent engine and wheels and you just run a bit more conservative…using a biking example, you go at slightly lower speed but since running is like uphill cycling you are using a lot less watts to go slightly slower because you are lighter…so you’re going at a lower percent of your FTP, but since your watts per kilo is better due to dieting, by the time you reach mile 20 you have more overall joules left in the tank for the last 6 miles…and since you are lighter you can move at the same speed off less watts, meaning you get to the finish line needing less joules.
People on ST get caught up too much about mileage and perfect workouts,there are a zillion workout ways to skin the cat, but the big trump card in marathon running is weight. More weight hurts you on push off with less stride length for the same force and hurts more every stride when you land. When you want to run a marathon at a high percent of your Vdot, you gotta shave every ounce of useless fat and muscle. All that upper body swim muscle is excess baggage…big glutes and big quads also excess baggage. But it CAN be easier to shave that off by reducing carb and also protein intake than trying to add 20 more miles per week. Gotta go hang out with some supermodels and get on their diet (LOL). As you mentioned running volume is too low to really burn the same caloric intake as we may for tris on a daily basis!
This
When I ran 2:47, I did a 10 mile race that year in under an hour, that is faster than 6:00minutes/mile, so 6:24 for the marathon distance was comfortable. I think I did an 18 mile race at 6:18/mile a few months before my goal marathon. (Around the Bay, Hamilton, ON)
So, my gut tells me that if you want to run 6:24 for 26 miles, you need to be able to race 6:00/mile for 10 miles.
t is quite alarming how small changes in pace affect me.
6:15 is comfortable hard (a good tempo pace). I can run 9 miles at this pace in practice.
6:00 will become anaerobic pretty quickly. (Can’t run 3 miles at this pace in practice).
Stop listening to all these people who actually know what they’re talking about. Listen to me instead.
- Run less - it’s bad for your knees.
- don’t lose weight. You’re 6’1" so you should be around the 200-210lb mark to be healthy. Anything less and people will think you’re sick (or a runner)
- Keep swimming and biking - you’re a damn good swimmer and good swimmers are rarer than good runners.
- Drink more beer. It will help you get to a healthy weight in a fun and sociable way.
- Give the 2:50 one more try and if your half split looks bad, cut the course and deny, deny, deny.
Marathons are stupid anyway - unless they’re the last leg of an IM.
Scrap the 10 and one of the easy 6 mile runs.
Replace with 70-90 minutes M-Paced run.
I know what you mean about the weight. I’m 5’10" and am about 167# in the off season. Training for an IM I find that it takes a lot of work to drop below 160# and that I don’t feel as strong. 163# seems to be the sweet spot to stay healthy and keep the volume up. When I was in high school my best running times came when I was about 155# but I’ve gained more leg and shoulder mass since then and doubt I could ever get back to that.
I missed that, you are not heavy at all, you’re just tall. Sure there is always possibility to lose more weight but with as full life, it’s hard to do without getting sick, in my experience anyway. The lowest I’ve been in recent years was 163-165 but I’m 5’10. Was sick all the time. I PR’ed then, but I can’t seem to want to become miserable again and drop all that weight.
You sure you covered all your bases nutrition-wise during the race?
This post makes me want to scrap Triathlon Training and go All In for a nice long marathon build.
The challenge of a sub 2:50 is an awesome feat to take on.
OTOH. something is to be said for setting a reasonable goal, executing it to perfection, and coming out of the winter running season with a full boat of confidence and fire in your belly to crush your next race!!
To the OP… Good try man. Seriously, way to put it out there! I love the dude that is willing to overreach, even it if means crashing and burning. There is another race soon!
I have coached two men who have run 2:44 and 2:50 respectively. The male that ran 2:44 was actually quite big, 6’2 and 180, while the 2:50 marathoner was 6’ and 150. Their training was quite similar, but they had very different natural abilities and builds. While I do think that weight is important (it is basic physics), it’s only one piece to the puzzle for running a fast marathon.
The pillars of my training philosophy for marathons, are lots of runs at marathon pace, threshold type workouts, progression runs, and VERY EASY RECOVERY RUNS. Most people run their recovery runs too fast, they let ego get in the way. This impedes recovery, and takes away from the real workouts, and often leads to injury…anyways, that’s just my 2 cents.
I definitely think you have the ability to run sub 2:50, but probably need to include more longer runs at marathon pace, and losing a few pounds wouldn’t hurt you either, as long as you are still able to well fuel yourself for workouts. Dieting to the point of having bad workouts is never recommended.
FYI: here is a good calculator I use to show the impact of body weight on performance: http://www.runningforfitness.org/calc/diet/weighteffect?metres=42195&hr=2&min=50&sec=10&weight=170&weightunits=lbs&Submit=Calculate