Hoping to break 2:50 for marathon

Triathlon Forum
21

I’ve rarely seen so much bad running advice compressed into so few posts!

Your problem isn’t 800m - 5k speed, or needing more speed work, or too long of a long run, or running too many miles (LOL). It’s pretty much the opposite of those things, I’d argue.

You aren’t too heavy and have the raw speed (1:20 HM), you just fade as you go long because you don’t have the miles in your legs. Drop the other sports for a bit and increase the miles. Worry about holding race pace, tempos and workouts to improve your threshold speed. Sure, do some fast economy work to hopefully make your running more efficient. But the real wins are going to be the mileage, and time spent around race pace.

A couple of people have argued something like this.

A few concerns (probably inane ones).

  1. I am concerned about loosing bike and swim fitness. 12 weeks is not very long. But…
    Any opinions about what the minimum amount of swimming and cycling one might do so that it does not take too long to get back to 70.3 shape?
  2. It seems that easy swim and bikes might be almost as effective as easy runs on recovery days.
  3. I have never been injured. That may be because I am cautious. Going from 45 miles per week max to 70, probably would not be a problem. But in a period of 4-6 weeks?

I think that if you are worried about injury you gain more by losing 7-10 lbs than you can with more mileage. Cut down your protein intake and lose some upper body swimmer muscle, and yes, sacrifice some swimming (and also biking)…you can gain it all back. Running fast marathons is not necessarily a healthy thing. You’re either on the razor’s edge of injury with all the fast miles, or stupidly light for your frame. Go to any local marathon and most of the guys running 2:55 and lower are a lot smaller than you. That’s just the way physics works. Your engine is big enough to overcome some of that size disadvantage and you have good endurance given the 1:20 half marathon…just make the oxygen delivery demands lower on your heart by carrying around less weight and in the last 6 miles you’re largely golden. Couple that with a few more miles and more miles at race speed or slightly faster and 2:50 should go down.

At IM pace you take “less flight” on each stride so there is less pounding for your body to absorb. Marathon, you are going much faster and closer to your 5K speed, so make the oxygen demands easier. It’s like climbers trying to improve their watts or reduce their kilos.

22

My last attempt to break 2:50 failed.
…
Running plan- 12 weeks
Hard weeks:
2 hrs easy swimming
4 hrs easy cycling
Runs 50 miles

Runs:

  1. long run - 20-24 miles // Too long. I would cap the long run at 20 (sometimes a planning mistake can put it at 21)
  2. tempo - 8 miles (half marathon pace + 5 sec)
  3. easy run 10 miles // Why?
  4. easy run 6 miles // Why?
  5. easy run 6 miles // Why?
    I also plan to do 1 long run with hard finish per month).

…

In short, too much easy running.

I would (do) go for, in order of importance:

1 Long run at 1:00/mile slower than race pace. // Until this becomes easy I would hold off on the fast finish plan.

1 M-Paced run - build up to 90 minutes. // This run will be challenging - I feel it is the second most important session after the long run.

1 tempo run - 10 min Easy, 40 min Tempo, 10 min Easy

1 Easy 10 miler - Have no plan going out the door other than to run 10 miles. If you feel good add some surges and strides and hill efforts.

23

Sorry, but maximizing your marathon potential requires a dedicated training effort. You are spending too much time on the other sports. I would limit the swim and bike workouts to once a week maintenance efforts during the 12 weeks leading up to your goal marathon.

You should also be running at least 1 hour per day, and more like 90 minutes plus. 3 of those runs are easy 8 milers. 1 weekday run in the low teens and 1 long run around 2 - 2 1/2 hours. The other 2 runs are workouts. Those can be tempo runs, progression runs, mile repeats, MP run.

Bottom line is that you need to run more and more often to keep that pace for 26.2.

By the way, I recently ran an 18:28 5k and a hilly 1:23 HM at 50 years old and still don’t think I can hit 2:50 in Memphis next month.

24

I don’t think that Mango is trying to maximize his marathon potential. He is trying to run sub 2:50. He was a D1 college athlete in a distance event and a multiple Kona qualifier. He has 2:40 potential.

Mango: I don’t know if this is what you are struggling with but: I want to grab all fruit that is hanging low enough for me to not go “full” time as a runner (or swimmer or biker). And I never really know where to reach…

25

you have already proven that plan does not work…

more miles, is also my prescription. The swim or bike is only for days when injured or pre-injured, otherwise all workouts need to be runs. Run six days a week, tone down that long run as suggested, one week at 20miles or so and 3 hours plus, the other week shorter. Shoot for at least 60mpw. Most runs easy, one week your tempo run as noted, the other week do a 5-mile time trial, basically race effort, with a warmup and down of 2-3 miles. Maybe add a shorter race or two on the weekends. I’d like to see a hilly 10miler at least every other week.

Question is, are you going to do another mono-buttocked attempt at 2:50 while still trying to keep tri fitness, or are you going to actually run sub-2:50 ?
Don’t self-sabotage… the bike and swim fitness will come back quickly.

I’m 6’2", currently 167, raced marathons at 160… the lighter the faster, until about 156lbs, at which point something would always break down.

26

+1

My advice:
-no swimming
-no cycling
-70-80mpw x12 wks
-Macmillan running plans
-20 every Sunday
-14-16 every Wednesday
-tempo every Friday
-occasional intervals substitute for tempo (especially once closer to race)
-Monday/Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday easy, but often up to 10 miles each
-very little at MP. Use Macmillan running calculator, run the tempos, intervals, LRs, and easy runs at those paces. Don’t cheat by going too fast
-three weeks before your race, on the end of a 70-80 mile week, you should be able to do 2 mi warmup, then 17 mi at 6:25-6:30. If you can hit that workout, you will nail it.
-three week taper (15%, 50%, and very little last week)

With your 1:20 fitness, all you need is the mileage to hold a slower pace for the full 26. Some weight loss associated with no swimming/cycling for 12 weeks will help too.

N=2.
This is pretty much what I did and went from a PR of 3h14 (run between triathlons) to 2h49 after focusing on the running for 3 months.

27

I don’t think that Mango is trying to maximize his marathon potential. He is trying to run sub 2:50. He was a D1 college athlete in a distance event and a multiple Kona qualifier. He has 2:40 potential.

Mango: I don’t know if this is what you are struggling with but: I want to grab all fruit that is hanging low enough for me to not go “full” time as a runner (or swimmer or biker). And I never really know where to reach…

Potential, my a$$. He needs to train for it to do it. Right now, he’s a 2:54 marathoner. Run more and run more often. It’s that simple.

28

I think the biggest mistake we make in endurance sports is trying to achieve all sorts of goals in one racing season. You simply can’t race a good 70.3 and go for a marathon PR (esp under 2:50) in one single season. You need a few months apart from these efforts. I would even say a spring half iron and a fall marathon would be appropriate. Give yourself some time. You’ll never accomplish this with a fall half and a fall marathon.

All the other posters are correct in giving up the swimming and biking. Racing a marathon is HARD! (I’ve raced several marathons and completed two IMLP races…racing the marathon was a lot harder than any of my IM efforts).

That said, have you looked at the Hanson running program? I believe you get the most bang for the buck with that program. 16 mile long runs and lots of work at marathon pace training. I ran my second best marathon ever using that program. My best marathon was before I had three kids and fresh out of college (2:39). I did a post kid PR 7 years older for a 2:49 at Boston on the Hanson plan.

If you want to go all in on running, then I suggest the Daniels running formula. A bit higher mileage and intensity, but it’s pure run training. Good luck!

Mike

29

sort of off topic but what would you suggest he do to drop those 10 pounds?
i’m 6’4 190 and would like to lose a few pounds to get faster but feel like i eat pretty healthy and don’t drink a ton…

30

Stop biking and swimming :slight_smile:

I always loose weight once I stop biking and swimming to concentrate on pure running. Swimming gives you good upper body muscles. Biking gives you pretty good/big quads. Those muscles make you look great, but doesn’t help you with running. That’s why you see the bodies of pure runners, like the Kenyans, resembling toothpicks. Put the bodies of an elite runner, biker, and swimmer next to one another. You can pretty much tell which one is a runner, biker, and swimmer by their body type. They each have muscles specific to their sport.

31

1:20 half marathon and cant break 18:20? Was the half marathon course legit distance, and not all downhill? Many people fool themselves of true potential running halfs that were really 12.8 miles or 700’ drop

32

When I ran my best marathons - sub - 2:50 I was just a runner (7 days a week sometimes double days) - My pb’s were 15:30 5KM - 32:30 - 10KM - 1hr 12 half. My training consisted of the following:-

M - 8 miles easy
T - Track - 6 x 1000m (200 jog recovery) with 2 mile warm up and down
W - 12 miles steady
T - Track - 6 x 800m (200 jog recovery) with 2 mile warm up and down
F - 8 miles easy
S - 10 miles
S - Long run 18 - 20

There were members in my group who ran five minutes faster than me over the full distance but I would beat them over the shorter distance. Perhaps the marathon was not my best distance. Good Luck but I think you need to focus on running and stay injury free. I only started picking up injuries in my early forties.

33

When i was 37 and at the tail end of my tri career, i decided to try and do a fast marathon( relative to me of course) I was always a low mileage tri runner, usually in the 20 to 35 range per week, but almost always hard and fast( for me). I have no idea if my marathon program will work for you, but what i did was run 40 to 45 miles a week, every run at minimum averaging the pace or better of what i wanted to run in the race. I cut swimming completely, and just did one long bike ride a week to get in at least one 3+ hour fat burning block. I only did this for 9 weeks, running kind of a training marathon after 4 weeks(local race) at 90% descending. Other than that one run, longest run was 16 miles.

So when i say average pace, of course you start out slower and work your way to faster than race pace at some point in the run. Shorter runs can be a lot faster. It looks like you would need to average just under 6;30 pace in the program i did. The pace i sought out was 6;05 and every run ended up better than that…You are only 4 minutes away from your goal, so doesn’t look like you need anything really huge to happen. I don’t believe you need to run a ton of miles, unless you run a lot of them slow. This program could lead to more injuries, but i found since the mileage was really low, and there has to many days off, i never had any issues.

It is not a program that most any coach or expert runner would give you, they all seem to believe mileage is king in training for a marathon. But since I actually did this, and it worked beyond what i even hoped for, i will throw it out there for you to evaluate and see if it might suit your talents…

After the first 4 weeks i did a few rest days, and then did the local marathon. Ran with the lead women the entire way and the eventual winner had a break through race and PR’d, so drug me to a PR also. Goal was to run 2;48 or so, ended up at 2;42( 2;40 was my goal time for the big one!

Got back on the program after a few days off, really felt good because of the extreme negative split of the race, no dead legs. That was probably very important in my program i figure, otherwise i would have been on dead legs for at least a week if i had gone the other way in pacing. Used this time to do an extra easy ride too.

Race day came and it was a hilly race, so really had to use my HR monitor to gauge effort, paces were all over the place. Long story short, ran at race HR for the first 13, then got picked up by a faster group of old guys running 5;40’s and jumped in. Ran with them with reckless abandon, until all were dropped, and blew at mile 24. Did 8 minutes on mile 25 and 9 on mile 26, so left nothing in the tank. Was at low 2;30 pace up til then, but managed a 2;36 and 5;59 pace, so very happy with the race and result. Beat up a few other triathletes who are much faster runners than me who also raced that day, guys that run a lot more miles too…

So if you want to try something really different, and save a ton of time, this could be it. I don’t believe that I’m some big outlier either, i know of many triathletes that did not run big mileage in their careers, and some were the best runners in the sport. Just isn’t for everyone of course, nothing is…

34

Potential, my a$$. He needs to train for it to do it. Right now, he’s a 2:54 marathoner. Run more and run more often. It’s that simple.

I agree - it would be stupid not to agree - with anyone who says to get to your potential you need to stop the biking and swimming and run more. But the OP did not ask that. His question requires more nuance than what a simple answer can supply.

35

1:20 half marathon and cant break 18:20? Was the half marathon course legit distance, and not all downhill? Many people fool themselves of true potential running halfs that were really 12.8 miles or 700’ drop

Yes I am pretty sure the course is legit.

To be fair, I have never run a 5k tapered (and usually not even well rested).
Still I am remarkably slow at 5 k (given my 13.1 and triathlon splits).

It is quite alarming how small changes in pace affect me.
6:15 is comfortable hard (a good tempo pace). I can run 9 miles at this pace in practice.
6:00 will become anaerobic pretty quickly. (Can’t run 3 miles at this pace in practice).

36

Potential, my a$$. He needs to train for it to do it. Right now, he’s a 2:54 marathoner. Run more and run more often. It’s that simple.

I agree - it would be stupid not to agree - with anyone who says to get to your potential you need to stop the biking and swimming and run more. But the OP did not ask that. His question requires more nuance than what a simple answer can supply.

It is true. I am kind of a crappy runner. (At least in comparison with my swimming and tri abilities). Honestly an “ok marathon time” is one of the easiest goals on my athletic bucket list. Just hoping to run 2:49 in the next 12 weeks. Then to move back to triathlon for 2015. Shooting for a fast 70.3 in the spring/summer and a good finish in Chicago at Olympic distance worlds.

37

I want to be clear, I think you could probably get under 2:50 without doing many more, if at all, miles but by increasing hard training like I and a couple others suggested.

I think to run your fastest marathon, you should increase miles and decrease non-run training. But to me it didn’t sound like you wanted to run “your fastest marathon.”

I was not trying to suggest that harder running could be a full replacement for more miles, just that to get those last few minutes to your goal you could try more variety(particularly early to mid way in your training) to hopefully become a faster overall runner for when you start really dialing in on MP running.

38

Thanks for all the good advice.
Here I think would be a nice synthesis.

3 weeks hard, 1 week recovery

Hard weeks:
Long run- only twice per month. And shorter 16-20 miles. (Maybe do one split day 12 miles morning, 6 evening on non long run week).
Hard workout 1- Tempo run #1- 10 miles @ 6:40- 6:25 pace. (Hopefully pushing towards 6:25 by week 10).
Hard workout 2- Tempo + Interval workout- 3- 5 miles @ 6:15, plus 5 x 800s @ 2:55-2:48 (or 1000s, 1200s)
Hard workout 3- 10 miles with hills or fartleks
Easy run 1- 4-8 miles
Easy run 2 4-8 miles
Easy run 3- 10 miles
2 x 40 min bike
2 x 20 minute swim
Summary 48-65 miles, 13-26 miles at (or faster than 6:30), only 2 hrs swim bike.

Recovery weeks- 4 x 4 miles easy, 3 hrs swim/bike.

Currently weigh 167. Hope to loose 5 lbs of fat. (Go from 8% bf to 6.5%). Will have to stop eating crap- damn!!!
Will hopefully loose 2 lbs muscle.
Goal weight 160.

Foreseeable problems-

  1. Over reaching- from too many hard runs.
    Solutions- remember to do lots of moderate quality running, no need to kill it on Tuesday, if I will be running hard again on Thursday.
  2. Can’t loose weight- let’s face it. It is easier for me to go from 200-170, then from 167-160.
    Solution- none. But even 3 lbs would help.
39

Good to see I helped bring on a tide of good advice to the thread :smiley:

Your plan looks good to me. Good luck losing the lbs… I’m in a pretty similar state as you, former college swimmer, 6’1", 165, dropped from ~178 this summer, trying to drop to 155 for running (I don’t have swimmer shoulders). Careful building to 60+miles, injury wise. That is definitely the hardest part for me!

40

Good to see I helped bring on a tide of good advice to the thread :smiley:

Your plan looks good to me. Good luck losing the lbs… I’m in a pretty similar state as you, former college swimmer, 6’1", 165, dropped from ~178 this summer, trying to drop to 155 for running (I don’t have swimmer shoulders). Careful building to 60+miles, injury wise. That is definitely the hardest part for me!

emaciation is not always the solution for speed

Of course, there are a few exceptions to the scaling rules. There was the Australian runner Derek Clayton, who weighed 160 pounds and set a world marathon mark in 1969.
And there is Tom Fleming (my coach) who won the New York City Marathon in 1973 and 1975. He is 6-foot-1, and while he ran his fastest marathon, 2 hours 12 minutes, weighing 159 pounds, he ran the Boston Marathon in 2 hours 14 minutes weighing 179 pounds. “I tell people that’s the fat-man record of Boston,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/health/nutrition/27Best.html?_r=0