Guns in the states

[chaparral]

@Yeeper

@chaparral

@svennn

You call it fear, I call it hedging my bets.

Like most gamblers, you are not familiar with statistics.

Thats cute.

And like a lot of biased individuals you are not familiar with the concept of a reasonable insurance policy when it comes to individuals protecting themselves.

The lens through which each side views this issue is different.

Last year or sometime around then I replied to you in a thread with recent links about random individuals being attacked in public. I never got a response.

The idea regarding personal safety is one where many individuals (almost half of all Americans) want the ability to defend themselves and protect their own and their loved one’s lives IF need be.

MVA’s cause the same amount of deaths per year.
Alcohol kills >4x more people than guns each year.
Smoke/SH Smoke kills >11x more people than guns each year.

In terms of statistics if your’e not going to take your own life and are not involved in a gang, then the risk of firearms to your own person drops even more than 50%.

The fact that these things are not mutually exclusive, nor are the movements against them, if the goal is to prevent deaths why does the focus and animosity gravitate so much towards the guns when they are a fraction of the issue that alcohol and smoke are given their nature/value.

What is your answer to someone who says they want a cheaper insurance policy to defend themselves?

How is it an insurance policy, if it makes you less safe?

That seems like the opposite of an insurance policy.

[slowguy]

@jimatbeyond

I consider being armed to be quite calming because I am prepared.

Just like some people like to be prepared for a natural disaster by having a good supply of food, water, gas, and a generator.

Safely securing your firearm is just another means of being prepared to avoid a bad outcome.

[waverider101]

bros this thread has gotten real dark

another topic - why is accomodation so dang expensive in the states? where can you get reasonably priced places to stay? Do you just rock up to hotels on the highways? we can’t see anything in austin less than $ 500 per night

[jimatbeyond]

I love to stay at any of the Caesars properties for free.

[manofthewoods]

If you’re staying at Ceasars for free…
It’s not ‘cause they are such sweet hearts and love Jim…
Well, maybe they DO love Jim’s wallet, just a little.
They don’t build them there fancy casinos by losing money, I recon’.

Free? Indeed.

It’s a safe bet, not too much open carry at casinos

[wimsey]

@Yeeper

The fact that these things are not mutually exclusive, nor are the movements against them, if the goal is to prevent deaths why does the focus and animosity gravitate so much towards the guns when they are a fraction of the issue that alcohol and smoke are given their nature/value.

I think part of the animosity (certainly part of what upsets me) is that, for the most part smoking and alcohol deaths primarily affect the person making the decision to do that harm. Sure, there is risk of second hand smoke exposure & drunk driving deaths - which is why we as a country have made concerted efforts to reduce the effects of those things on people who didn’t make the choice to smoke or drink.

With gun violence, particularly school shootings, the outrage is significantly driven by the fact that the victims had no agency in making decisions that lead to their death.

It also tends to be an immediate, catastrophic death with no chance of course correction. Someone who smokes or drinks too much has many opportunities to course-correct and/or modulate the damage that’s been done before, and people around them have the chance to move away from the worst of the damage. That opportunity to change behavior and perhaps have a chance at grace does not exist once a trigger is pulled.

[Yeeper]

@wimsey

@Yeeper

The fact that these things are not mutually exclusive, nor are the movements against them, if the goal is to prevent deaths why does the focus and animosity gravitate so much towards the guns when they are a fraction of the issue that alcohol and smoke are given their nature/value.

I think part of the animosity (certainly part of what upsets me) is that, for the most part smoking and alcohol deaths primarily affect the person making the decision to do that harm. Sure, there is risk of second hand smoke exposure & drunk driving deaths - which is why we as a country have made concerted efforts to reduce the effects of those things on people who didn’t make the choice to smoke or drink.

With gun violence, particularly school shootings, the outrage is significantly driven by the fact that the victims had no agency in making decisions that lead to their death.

It also tends to be an immediate, catastrophic death with no chance of course correction. Someone who smokes or drinks too much has many opportunities to course-correct and/or modulate the damage that’s been done before, and people around them have the chance to move away from the worst of the damage. That opportunity to change behavior and perhaps have a chance at grace does not exist once a trigger is pulled.

There is certainly something to be said about the give “only” affecting the person. However there are consistent arguments about guns as they pertain to suicides but the also only affect the person committing suicide. And ~50% of all gun deaths are suicide.

There is a not insignificant number of innocent deaths from drunk driving and smoke. Second hand smoke affects innocent children as well. 11x more smoking deaths than from guns; including hundreds of children.

From what I read 25% of all children that are killed in MVAs are killed as a a result of drunk driving accidents.

I also don’t think that because it’s a slow anticipated self-inflicted death that we give it less attention.

Children are killed traumatically in drunk driving accidents. Children are also killed and affected by second-hand smoke.

I’m trying to understand why MVAs, alcohol, and tobacco aren’t consistently discussed at the level and intensity of guns if it’s about preventing deaths, and it becomes more emotionally charged when children are killed.

[DavHamm]

@jimatbeyond

I consider being armed to be quite calming because I am prepared.

Just like some people like to be prepared for a natural disaster by having a good supply of food, water, gas, and a generator.

Love the analogy as the comparison is perfection on so many levels.

[wimsey]

@Yeeper

I’m trying to understand why MVAs, alcohol, and tobacco aren’t consistently discussed at the level and intensity of guns if it’s about preventing deaths, and it becomes more emotionally charged when children are killed.

I think you and I aren’t all that far apart on this.

I think that drunk driving and second hand smoke are - or have been - discussed consistently over a very long period of time, and we as a nation have reacted to those discussions.

Smoking indoors in public places like bars, restaurants, even airplanes was accepted within my lifetime. We have now prohibited those things. The number of smokers has declined significantly in recent decades.

Drunk driving used to be implicitly tolerated. There have been concerted efforts to reduce the incidence of drunk driving fatalities, and those efforts appear to have made an impact. See, e.g.,Alcohol-related traffic crashes in the United States - Wikipedia, stating that “Between 1991 and 2013, the rate of alcohol-related traffic fatalities (ARTF) per 100,000 population has decreased 52% nationally, and 79% among youth under 21.”

To your direct question, I think the prevalence of mass casualty school shootings has increased in the last 25 years, and it’s drawing attention because of its relative newness and because of the perceived lack of action to address the problem. Drunk driving deaths and perils of smoking have been an issue for longer, and efforts to address the problems have been effective. I respectfully suggest that you may have become desensitized to the efforts to combat drunk driving and smoking related consequences - the billboards and PSAs and school talks and the legislation that it’s easy to take for granted now (e.g., no smoking indoors in public places, open container laws, etc.).

We are not seeing that (yet) with gun violence in schools. The relative newness of the problem and the lack of effective action is driving attention.

[jimatbeyond]

Caesars just wants me to stay with them so that they can win back the money that i took from them over the years. My ledger shows that I am up $1,800.

It does boggle my mind that they will give me small suites that would typically go for $800 per night and a $200 dining credit.

[DavHamm]

@wimsey

@Yeeper

I’m trying to understand why MVAs, alcohol, and tobacco aren’t consistently discussed at the level and intensity of guns if it’s about preventing deaths, and it becomes more emotionally charged when children are killed.

I think you and I aren’t all that far apart on this.

I think that drunk driving and second hand smoke are - or have been - discussed consistently over a very long period of time, and we as a nation have reacted to those discussions.

Smoking indoors in public places like bars, restaurants, even airplanes was accepted within my lifetime. We have now prohibited those things. The number of smokers has declined significantly in recent decades.

Drunk driving used to be implicitly tolerated. There have been concerted efforts to reduce the incidence of drunk driving fatalities, and those efforts appear to have made an impact. See, e.g.,Alcohol-related traffic crashes in the United States - Wikipedia, stating that “Between 1991 and 2013, the rate of alcohol-related traffic fatalities (ARTF) per 100,000 population has decreased 52% nationally, and 79% among youth under 21.”

To your direct question, I think the prevalence of mass casualty school shootings has increased in the last 25 years, and it’s drawing attention because of its relative newness and because of the perceived lack of action to address the problem. Drunk driving deaths and perils of smoking have been an issue for longer, and efforts to address the problems have been effective. I respectfully suggest that you may have become desensitized to the efforts to combat drunk driving and smoking related consequences - the billboards and PSAs and school talks and the legislation that it’s easy to take for granted now (e.g., no smoking indoors in public places, open container laws, etc.).

We are not seeing that (yet) with gun violence in schools. The relative newness of the problem and the lack of effective action is driving attention.

Yeepier not sure where your at, it seems nearly yearly NHTSA is forcing OEM’s to add more features to the cars to reduce accidents and injuries. Wimsey pretty well covered the other topics.

You don’t hear much anymore cause no one is standing around fighting these changes, OEM’S will fight the NHTSA changes but it gets little press cause no one cares, Not sure anyone is resisting reducing tobaco usage anymore. And drunk driving campaigns by the police still happen, and every Holiday there are reminders out there not to drink and drive, and lots of folks paying for free cab rides or ubers if you are drunk. But again no one is putting out ads saying no no get drunk and drive its okay and if you get a ticket we will pay for it.

Then there is the other issue, those topics are not controlled by the constitution. If 2A didn’t exist we would be having very different conversations. But it does and the courts change interpretations of it which changes the conversation.

[Ironnerd]

@waverider101

another topic - why is accomodation so dang expensive in the states? where can you get reasonably priced places to stay? Do you just rock up to hotels on the highways? we can’t see anything in austin less than

In 2019 I did a 2 week trip through the US. We found accommodation prices very expensive. At least $100 US per night and much, much more in the cities.

For our current big trip we purchased an RV. Most of the time we stay for free in rest areas or Walmart. RV parks cost $30-$50 per night. In cities RV parks cost $80+ per night. We love the freedom the RV gives us. We don’t have to pre plan accommodation. It may be cheaper for you to hire an RV for part of your trip.