The “Would the ACLU have sued George Washington” has me thinking. I am very serious here and want to know if ACLU fans and those opposed to prayer in school, the 10 commandments on government courthouses, prayer in school etc. are offended when someone like the President concludes a speech with “God Bless America.” Not just Republican presidents but any government official. Additionally Senate and Congress sessions are opened with a prayer. I am also curious if you think we should remove “In God We Trust” from our currency. I really am not trolling or being sarcastic I am very curious. It seems to me you should be very offended and outraged over these things.
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Prayer is allowed in school. Students and teachers can pray anytime they want to. Students can pray in the hall, read Bibles at lunch, etc. Teachers can pray right alongside students (I did this year at the “Meet at the Pole” thing) as long as it’s “student-led”. What CANNOT happen is a “teacher-led” or “school-led” prayer where the activity is REQUIRED. I have no problem with this. I wouldn’t want my kids saying a Musslim prayer if their 3rd grade teacher was Musslim.
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For those outraged by the “In God We Trust” on our currency. I am very sympathetic to this situation. My standing offer still exists … I am willing to take any and all of this "offensive propoganda off your hands. I don’t want religion to be imposed upon you by forcing you to carry all that green i your wallet. =)
I really don’t care if God is removed from money or not (some would say God and “money” is ironic … others would say it’s “nothing new”), I just wanted to try and make a funny. I did want to point out that both students and teachers can pray whenever they want (even silently). The seperation of church and state is the type of thing that was put into place to PREVENT the state from telling people whether they could or could not pray and who they could or could not pray to and where they could or could not pray. Nothing in schools prohibit prayer … only mandatory teacher or school-led prayer, where the students have no choice but to be immersed or participate.
“I, as a Christian, of course have no problem when Bush or anyone says God Bless America, because God has blessed us.”
Which god blessed us? The god that allowed 45 million abortions in this country? The god that allowed 9-11? The god that allows our military to slaughter thousands of civilians in a foreign country? If these are the kind of blessings your god has bestowed on America I think I don’t want to be blessed.
As already mentioned, people are free to pray in school or anywhere they want as long as others are not forced to join them. There really is no need to have god on our money or in our pledge. Religious symbols also do not belong in government buildings. If people were sincere in their beliefs they would have no need for these things.
Our country is blessed not by god, but by man made things. Our constitution was not written by god, it was written by men of varying beliefs. Our society is not ruled by the bible, it is governed by laws created by its people - not god.
I have no problem with people believing anything they want or with them praying, etc., as long as they do so in a private manner. When people demand to have god on currency and in the pledge it is forcing others to accept things they may not believe in. That is wrong in my opinion.
Don
“Do you give credit to God when things go well? If not, I suggest you don’t blame him with things don’t go well.”
I don’t give god credit for anything - good or bad. I don’t believe in god. My point was that while people like to say things like “God Bless America”, they are fooling themselves into believing that god is only responsible for the good things. If your god is an omnipotent being then all things good and bad can be thus attributed. If god “blesses” us with the good, then we are also “blessed” with the bad. As a non-believer, I think things happen as a result of what people do and have nothing to do with any godly being.
You might like to believe that the taking god out of schools, etc., has had negative consequences. However, bad things have happened throughout our country’s history. Many of our nations founders were slave owners - not a good thing. A war was waged on our soil over this and hundreds of thousands lost their lives - not good. Was god blessing America then? Of course none of this had anything to do with any god, it was all the work of people. People have been responsible for all the good and the bad. People of varying beliefs too.
One the things I find very odd is while people such as President Bush will say things like, “May God Bless America.” He then orders our military to kill people. Of course only the “bad guys” are supposed to be killed, but along the way thousands of innocent people are killed too. Is there some religion where this is permissable? Is god somehow going to overlook the bad things we do and bless us? Is only America blessed? What about Canada, Mexico, and all the other countries? Why should America be the only country being blessed? Does god somehow single us out even though our country is probably not even the most religious country?
Don
Not sure if you will get this or not because it is based on “Faith” and has its premise from a belief in God and the bible. I share it with you in hopes you will be open minded.
Bob ** ** What the Bible says about… Why Bad Things Happen
A young mother is dying of cancer. A teenage girl overdoses on drugs. A plane crashes, killing dozens of people and injuring more. A little boy bears permanent physical and emotional scars from parental abuse. People in Africa and Asia are slowly starving to death.
Horrible things happen. We hear about them so frequently that we become numb, even calloused, to other’s suffering. When they happen in our own families, they cause intense pain and test our faith in God. Why does the Lord allow such evil?
Sometimes it seems impossible to understand God’s reasons. We might wonder whether He wants us to know His plans. We might say, “Truly You are a God who hides Yourself.” (Isaiah 45:15) “There is no searching His understanding.” (Isaiah 40:28) There is no doubt that we are limited in our understanding of the Lord’s working. Perhaps we hurt so deeply we feel no explanation can right the wrong. We may be so angry that we don’t want to hear His will. Yet the Lord does care about us and does want us to understand Him. In spite of heart-wrenching situations, we can know some very important truths about His providence, if we are willing. “The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him; and He will show them His covenant.” (Psalm 25:14) He Is In Control
One central truth is that the Lord is in control of every situation. Every least detail is part of His Providence: “Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. But the very hairs of your head are numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.” (Matthew 10:29) What seems to be the result of our own careful planning would never happen without the Lord allowing it. “A man’s heart plans his way: but the Lord directs his steps.” (Proverbs 16:9) Even seemingly chance events are governed by Him. “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” (Proverbs 16:33) God does more than occasionally intervene. He is constantly guiding human history at every moment. “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave, and brings up. The Lord makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up.” (1 Samuel 2:6,7) “In Him we live and move and have our being.” (Acts 17:28)
Because the Lord is in control of evil, it has its limits. Hitler’s actions sparked a vast amount of evil. But he did not take over the world. Evil rules for some time in some places, and then a balance is restored, and goodness revives. “Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them all.” (Psalm 34:19) The Bible tells us that we will face evil; but it will not finally destroy the human spirit or make goodness impossible. “A just man falls seven times and rises up again.” (Proverbs 24:16) “You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends,” Jesus said, “and they will send some of you to your death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost.” (Luke 21:18) “The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord… Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down.” (Psalm 37:23) What the Lord Wants
Knowing that the Lord is in control may not be satisfying. If the Lord is in control, then isn’t He to blame for evil events? This leads us to a second basic truth: The Lord never wants evil things to happen. Evil is not part of the Lord’s will. “I know the thoughts I think towards you,' says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil.'” (Jeremiah 29:11) When a young child dies, remember: “It is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” (Matthew 18:14)
God cannot cause evil because He is totally good. God is love. (1 John 4:7,8) He is merciful and forgiving, gentle and kind. (Exodus 34:6) And because He cannot work against Himself, He cannot do evil. “Far be it from God to do wickedness; and from the Almighty to commit iniquity.” (Job 34:10) “His work is perfect…a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He.” (Deuteronomy 32:4)
We might think that God does not care about us because He allows us to suffer. In fact He is aware of our suffering, and He grieves when we are not happy. When Mary and other Jews were weeping in mourning for Lazarus, the Lord felt their sorrow in Himself&emdash;He wept, groaning within Himself. (John 11:33, 35, 38) And He wept for Jerusalem because of the twisted passions that had taken away its peace. (Luke 19:41) “How often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings and you would not.” (Matthew 23:37) Even moments before His crucifixion after having been ridiculed, beaten and whipped, the Lord spoke with concern for the suffering of others, not His own: “Weep not for me, but for yourselves and your children.” (Luke 23:38)
Mercy is love grieving. The grief and suffering of Jesus was the ultimate expression of the Divine love for humankind. He came into the world to fight beside us and within us against the subtle hellish urges that threatened the existence of any genuinely human love. He took up&emdash;takes up&emdash;our struggle against evil, because with Divine compassion He feels our misery as if it were His own. “His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel.” (Judges 10:16) “He took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses.” (Isaiah 53:4) “In all their affliction He was afflicted.” (Isaiah 63:9) Because He has experienced our suffering, He can help us survive it. “For in that He Himself has suffered being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.” (Hebrews 2:11, 18) He is one who can “be touched with the feeling of our infirmities.” (Hebrews 4:15)
Again and again we read of the Lord’s awareness and experience of our suffering. “You have considered my trouble; You have known my soul in adversities.” (Psalm 31:7) “Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,…You are with me.” (Psalm 23:4) “Is Ephraim my dear son?..My bowels are troubled for him.” (Jeremiah 31:20) The Lord so much identifies with us, that whatever suffering we inflict&emdash;or benefits we confer&emdash;upon each other, He feels our pain or joy as if we had done it to Him. “If you have done it to one of the least of these My brethren, you have done it to Me.” (Matthew 25:40, 45)
It is clear that human suffering is not part of His will. He permits it reluctantly. “He does not willingly afflict or grieve the children of men.” (Lamentations 3:33) “I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,' says the Lord God. Therefore turn, and live!'” (Ezekiel 18:23, 32; 33:11) Freedom
As much as the Lord desires our welfare, there is one thing he desires even more: our freedom. He allows us to choose between evil and good, and when we choose evil, it has its consequences. But neither the evil nor its consequences are His will. "I have set before you life and death, a blessing and a cursing: Therefore choose life!’ (Deuteronomy 30:19) Taking away our free choice and its consequences would remove any sense of self-determination and any freely given love or freely received joy. Evil results from mankind using that precious gift of freedom to go against God’s will. Turning It to Good
Freedom to choose is not the only reason that the Lord allows good people to suffer. A final important truth is that the Lord allows evil and suffering because He can bring good from it. The Lord allowed Joseph to be sold as a slave by his brothers, and imprisoned. Yet through this, Joseph came to rule the Egyptians and save them from starvation during seven years of famine. Later Joseph forgave his brothers: “You thought evil against me, but God meant it for good,…to save many people alive.” (Genesis 50:20) The Lord can turn a curse into a blessing. (Deuteronomy 23:5) “All things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose.” (Romans 8:28) He allows us to experience suffering because of the benefits that can come from it. “Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted… Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:4, 10)
We cannot fully understand the infinite wisdom of the Lord’s providence. However, we can know certainly that the Lord is in control, and that His only concern is for our eternal happiness. We know that He can bring good from every evil, and we can try to cooperate with His plans by finding ways to grow in strength, sensitivity, conviction and humility as a result of the experience.
I don’t mind at all when Bush says “God bless America” - I think he has veery right to say that.
I do support taking God off of money and out of the pledge. They don’t bother me personally at all, but I see absolutely no reason to have them in there, and it clearly bothers some people. I don’t think public acknowledgement of (any) God is the job of the government.
Nice post.
Taking away our free choice and its consequences would remove any sense of self-determination and any freely given love or freely received joy. Evil results from mankind using that precious gift of freedom to go against God’s will.
This is hard for people to understand. God wants us to “choose” God, not be “forced” to God.
Some will abuse freedom for personal gain or revenge. The solution is to punish the offender … not remove freedom from all so that no one else ever gets hurt. That’s an important point for me.
“I share it with you in hopes you will be open minded.”
I did read your message with an open mind. It’s nice that you have your faith and I have no problem with what you believe to be true. However, not all people share your faith and believe as you do and as such should not have god forced upon them by their government through things like currency or the pledge.
Nowhere in your message did I read anything about god blessing America - or any other country for that matter. Given that America is a fairly young country, who did god bless before? Where is written that America can claim god to the exclusion of others? How many other countries include god on their currency or in a pledge? How many have songs like God Bless America? Does a country need to wear god on its sleeve, so to speak, in order to be blessed?
I ask you to read your own message with an open mind. Do you see how contradictory it is? God is in control of all things, but evil is only the work of people’s free choice. If this god was in control of all things then where did the thought of evil even come from? God is aware of human suffering and not happy about it, but allows it just the same. So here we have a god that is in control of all things and then lets people suffer. Does this god have a cruel streak in addition to all the goodness? I’m sure people much smarter than me can name numerous instances of contradictions contained within the bible.
As I said, you are certainly free to believe as you wish. You should not have the freedom to force your beliefs upon those who believe differently. America is no more or less blessed than any other country, we just happen to have a good set of laws that people abide by.
Don
My point was that while people like to say things like “God Bless America”, they are fooling themselves into believing that god is only responsible for the good things. If your god is an omnipotent being then all things good and bad can be thus attributed.
Where the heck were you when I wanted to solve the problem of evil?
I really am not trolling or being sarcastic I am very curious. It seems to me you should be very offended and outraged over these things.
It makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up whenever I hear a politician say “God Bless America”. Outraged? No. Depressed? Yes.
Of course, I am against any expression of religion that is not personal in nature.
Thanks Ken for your honesty. Do you beleive that the mention of God neccessarily supports or endorses a particular relgion? And does it trully depress you to hear those words?
Thanks Ken for your honesty. Do you beleive that the mention of God neccessarily supports or endorses a particular relgion? And does it trully depress you to hear those words?
Well, it certainly endorses the existence of a supernatural being (or beings), which is rather offensive to those of us who don’t believe in such things.
Yes, it does depress me. I just can’t understand either the hubris of people who think that an all-powerful entity gives a rat’s ass about the brief tenure of our country on this planet, or the contradictory stance of thinking that such an entity needs an entreaty for beneficence.
Wow, I didn’t know people got so fired up the reference to God. I understand prayer in school, but getting bent because the word God is on our currency or the President says God bless America? Can’t you just write some of it off to tradition and heritage and let it go? How does the word God on $ effect you? It is still good right?
What about Christmas? Here in Denver the Mayor, stupidly, has declared that next year the words “Merry Christmas” will be removed from the light display on our City and County building. Give me a break, it is CHRISTMAS time not holiday time.
I guess I find it hard to believe that people just don’t have other things to worry about, or be focused on than this stuff. The answer to our problems is not the removal of every reference to God. This country, like it our not, was built with the ethics, morals, convictions and strengths that come from religion and here in the good 'ol USA it happens to be a Judeo Christian history.
God bless America 
Why should money have a reference to God?
Can’t you just write some of it off to tradition and heritage and let it go?
Like the Confederate flag?
A guy asks a reasonable question, and I answer honestly in a moderate tone, and you somehow read that as my getting “so fired up”, being “bent”, that I’m “focused on” this, that I think this is the cause of all our problems, etc. Go figure.
“Do you beleive that the mention of God neccessarily supports or endorses a particular relgion?”
I assume you mean the mention of god in government, currency, etc. I don’t think it endorses a particular religion, just the notion that god exists. How would you feel if instead of currency proclaiming, “In God We Trust”, it said, “There Is No God”? Wouldn’t you feel like you were being forced to accept something you did not believe? Wouldn’t it be better to simply leave off references to god in the first place?
Don
Do you feel offended when you sneeze and someone says God Bless You?
Maybe, for the politically correct crowd, we should say, “no higher power bless you”
Funny you should use that example, because I no longer say “God Bless You” when someone sneezes, and I no longer say “Thank You” when someone says it to me when I sneeze. Talk about a really stupid tradition.
sorry, poorly framed, wasn’t directed at you. I really meant in a general sense and do find it frustrating that so much effort is put into this. For example, how much time of the Denver Mayor’s time is going to go to responding to his decision? Couldn’t it be better spent doing something else? No on can even figure out what his motivation was so there was no pressing need.
I am just suprised that it really bothers people.
As for the Confederate flag, I don’t get upset by it but understand why some do, but it represents a negative aspect of our history.
Again, my apology for it reading like I was lowering those barrels at you
Honestly I don’t think I would be bothered which is why I am really trying to understand why someone does have a problem with it. I hate to break it down to simply that the majority of people in the USA do beleive in God, not neccessarily my God, but at least in a higher deity but they do. Its like a post on another thread that talked about not being able to play Christmas songs or have Christmas decorations in his college counseling center but could put up all kinds of “rainbow” material to make a minority of gay, lesbian and transgendered students “feel” comfortable. Why are their rights and feelings any more important than someone who beleives in Christmas. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, like it or not, our country was founded on Judeo Christian values. And while I do not claim to know about all religions or others beliefs in their God I am willing to bet the morals and values are going to be the same. I guess I just feel that with all of the problems in our country (and the world) what “harm” is it doing to try to bring moral clarity to the masses?
Who cares? It does, it was designed that way and no one alive today did it, so why is it such a big deal? Do you think we should redesign our entire currency?
Well, if you’re going to defend it you should at least be able to come up with a reason. “who cares” “it was designed that way” “no one alive today did it” are pretty inane reasons, don’t you think?
There is a pretty good reason not to have God on money - it violates the separation of church and state. The way I see it, there is no good reason to gave God on money. We redesign currency all the time - the next time around, let’s take it off.