FIST economics

the reasons for FIST are:

  1. to teach bike shop pros how to determine what sort of position–road, midrange, or tri–ought to be suggested and offered to a subject looking for the right bike fit.

  2. to demonstrate how to fit a person to an optimized tri position.

  3. to help create a consensus in the industry as to what an optimized tri fit means, to the point where i and tom demerly could both perform a fit on you, two thousand miles from each other, and the results would be the same.

if you are in the financial services industry and you have CLU or CHFC after your name, that means something. if you’re an electrician and you have your license # in your yellow pages ad, that means something. in each case, it means that this person will comport himself according to industry standards which have stood up to industry scrutiny. yes, that’s going to come with a price. that up-charge you pay is your “insurance policy” against pissing your entire investment down a hole when you have a living trust set up, or when you have your house rewired.

those of you who complain about paying more than $50 or $75 for a bike fit do so either because:

  1. you already have a perfectly good position, or
  2. you have no confidence that paying any more will actually yield a worthwhile result.

if you KNEW that your position would be fixed you’d not balk at a higher price, because the hours you spend riding in an uncomfortable or slower position are worth a LOT more in aggravation or misery costs than the price of a good fit. the unprofessionalism and lack of consensus is what drives the cost of a fit session down. confidence in the efficacy of a fit session drives the price up. it’s not the goal of FIST to drive the price up. it’s the goal of FIST to push the industry. that ought to serve to drive the price up for those who know what they’re doing. but that’s a natural market force.

this post will inevitably cause a reply along the lines of, “how do we know FIST techniques are really the acme of the industry?” my reply is that they are not. the techniques are already in use. all the dealers who just left the first FIST workshop already fit people the way i teach. dan rishworth (enduro sport, toronto) and tom demerly probably didn’t need to come. because of their presence this workshop was half seminar and half industry symposium. i learned as much as i taught. those who know what they’re doing are ALREADY fitting people with a common method in our industry. the problem is, the end-user doesn’t know who is part of this “club” of knowledgeable experts.

likewise, the manufacturers who know what they’re doing (geometrically) area also hip to this. it’s the mission of FIST to simply take what’s already in place and create a recognizable consensus among magazines, manufacturers, shops, and coaches. triathlon is ready for it, but we don’t yet quite have it.

Dan,

1st, pricing a fit over $100 for something that will likely take an hour or so is outrageous. Most physicians dont make this much money, and their invesment is much higher than that of a fist camp (12 years of school at 5000x4+15000*8 here in canada.)

For me to pay over $100 US for a fit, that is almost $160 CDN. I have a friend who has been practicing medicine for 28 years, and doesnt make that much money for the same amount of time.

You are telling me that going to a camp for a weekend justifies charging this amount of money for an hour or so of labour? Hell, if i can get away with that, sign me up right now, ill drop out of school and become a professional fitter.

That said, it is a commodity in demand. Prices will be jacked up because of supply and demand. Its like the comment on the Renn vs. Zipp discs, and their 800-900 dollar price difference. They arent that different in construction, yet the price difference is outrageous. Thats because people will pay that. I am sure that Renn could charge upwards of 600+ for their disc, and sales wouldnt drop very much, if at all.

I think if you realistically look at the time that it takes to do a bike fit, and the experience that you need in order to do a “professional” fit, and compare it to other jobs with comparable experience, you will find that charging $100+/hour is outrageous.

The average salary of a new University graduate is $30000 out of school. This person (in canada at least) has spent over $25k on school, plus many many hours working and studying to make this measly amount of income. If you were to bill $100/hour for bike fittings, you would be looking at an income of 6 figures. The time that it takes in hours of work are probably similar.

Or another comparison. The highest paid nurses in canada with a univeristy education and over 20 years of experience make just over $35/hour. Compare this to someone who has taken a weekend long fit camp, and has been fitting bikes for a few years. There is no valid comparison.

your assumption that people will pay outrageous prices for fits does not apply to everyone and realisitcally, not even most of the people in triathlon. I also dont think that paying that much money for a fit is justified, unless possibly you are a pro athelete.

Just my $.02

-Kevin

Dan,

Are you planning on having camps on the east coast?

Kevin, I’m not rolling in money, but I’ve already paid over $100 twice for a fit on a tri bike that I ordered over the phone using the “give me all these different body measurements” approach. I’d gladly have paid $200 when ordering the bike if I could have been assured I was getting the right bike & the right fit. $200 barely buys me a car tune up & I spend a lot more time on my bike!

My problem is I suspect that if I went to a third highly regarded fitter I’d get my position changed again. From the casual triathelete’s perspective, bike fitting seems to be a black art. I’d welcome an industry standard IF (big if) it would result in a recognized group of experts who had discovered a consistently correct method of fitting individual with varying physical traits and goals.

My comments:

  1. I agree that a common method of standardization of fitting technique measurements is a good thing, although probably it will be very difficult to get any agreement with how bike manufacturers are willing to measure their frames.

  2. A given is that FIST is a scientifcally valid method of doing bike fit and offers certification to pro bike fitters(and also interested individuals outside the industry) at a national or international level. This is a very good thing for the Joe Average AG tri-geek. However, unless proven beyond doubt, the FIST method shouldn’t be held up as the only way of doing things any more than 78 degrees should be held up as the only way of riding. The are no doubt other ways of doing things that can get to the same destination. Let FIST speak for itself. If it’s that good we will follow. No need to trash the other guy.

  3. If there is any weakness in the FIST approach(as I understand it), then I have to agree with Gerard when he posted that he prefers to get his fitting with a PT or someone else with anatomical/biomechanical training because of certain musculoskletal problems he suffers from. This could also be done by a kinesiologist or chiropractor, etc. It’s fine to plot positions based upon measurements, but there are people with certain musculokeletal conditions for which the general rules do not apply. Read my post today on the woman with the scoliosis/Harrington rod. Other problems can be physiological/anatomical short leg lengths, hypo or reversed cervical lordosis, muscle flexibility irregularities, etc. These people generally can not and should not ride in an aggresive position. No cookbook technique system will work for every individual but a good system approach would likely work for 90% of the general triathlete population, but for a minority of others it won’t. Most pro bike fitters would be unfamiliar with biomechanical screening techniques unless they’ve had some additional form of training in this area.

  4. It probably wouldn’t be that hard if you consulted with someone trained in this area to come up with a basic standardized biomechanical screening test that could be taught to pro bike fitters. They would check flexibility, measure neck ranges of motion, assess leg lengths, assess foot rotation, etc. and suggest possible fit implications because of this. This could then be added to the course or offered as an extra supplement.

  5. I’d love to take the course myself sometime. Just gotta somehow justify it since I don’t work in the industry.

Just my $.02.

“if you KNEW that your position would be fixed you’d not balk at a higher price, because the hours you spend riding in an uncomfortable or slower position are worth a LOT more in aggravation or misery costs than the price of a good fit”


That’s the key - if you KNEW. How after a FIST fit would I KNOW? Does FIST incorporate computrainer or wattage to show me that I’m better off? I can easily tell the comfort in just a few hours of riding - but what did it cost me in speed, or power or aerodynamics - or can I have both comfort & speed - and what about ability to run afterwards. If FIST can quantify these things - then it would certainly be worth more.

I think you should change your perspective when comparing what people make and how much they are worth. A better way to do things would be to look at yearly salary and overhead. I doubt if Tom D. or Dan E. or anyone else would make as much as a doctor or a lawyer per year by doing fittings, even if they did charge $350, I could be wrong, but it’s definitely a more valid comparison than per hour. I may make $1000/hour, but it doesn’t put diddly squat on the table or cover my expenses if I only work 1 hour per year. If these guys provide a good service, that’s hard to come by, they should be able to live without starving. They have overhead, such as simply covering the costs of learning how to do this right. Bottom line is they have to make a profit big enough to survive, otherwise it’s not worth doing.

I don’t think we can compare people who fit bikes to people in other professions. At least not here in the good old USofA. It’s all about supply and demand. If I owned a bike shop, I’d hang a sign out in front that said “Bike Fittings-$200” If I didn’t get anyone to fit, I’d drop my price. If I couldn’t fit people in for a month because I had that long of a waiting list, I’d change the sign to “Bike Fittings-$250”.

I also think the price will be regional. If there are 5 guys in my town that are great fitters, I’m going to pay less. (Unless they are price gouging, but that’s another post.) If there is only one, well, I’ll pay a premium.

I also think that hopefully I only have to have it done once is a factor. With most professions I’m paying for a service over and over again.

Now I’m starting to ramble. So I’ll stop here.

Jeff

i have a question for “Kevin_Queens.” you’re in a wintery area, and i imagine you can’t yet ride on the road. when will you start riding? what month? and how much, in hours, will you ride per week from then on, more or less?

“Does FIST incorporate computrainer or wattage to show me that I’m better off?”

it can incorporate wattage, but not to show you that you’re better off. one of the areas in which FIST delves is in paraphernalia, and what the use of it gives you and what it doesn’t. the short answer is, yes, FIST covers the use of a computrainer as a fitting aid. but, FIST also tells you what a computrainer WON’T do.

you might think, hey, i’ll ride at 74 degrees, then 80 degrees, both rides at a constant resistance setting (CT’s ergometer mode) and check my heart rate during both sessions. the lower the heart rate, the more efficient the position. but in real life the CT won’t demonstrate that. you won’t see a variance in your heart rate for reason we explain in the FIST workshop. on the other hand, the CT is valuable for two reasons:

  1. it allows you to ride under load, and it is recommended that the fit session take place on a fit bike outfitted with a resistance function (like a computrainer), or on your own bike if it’s to be fitted with different components and positions as the session progresses. the load ought to approximate real life conditions, and one can extrapolate, or at least take an educated guess, at a resistance that approximates riding at the subject’s AT, or ironman pace, whatever. the CT allows you to fix the resistance at that watt setting.

  2. for a variety of reasons which i won’t go into now, the spinscan feature ought to show a power wave of different amplitude after a proper tri bike fit versus the wave exhibited off a road bike fit.

first of all - dan said 50 -75… where did you get 100?

second - that is not unreasonable as a value. in a free market… pricing is based on supply and demand, vaue, and cost plus margin. compareing to non-related services is silly.

third - when i find myself reacting negatively to price… it is usually because of unrealistic expectations, or i am cheap, or i am not prepared (it is not in the budget)

fourth - renn is cutting cost by reducing service and by chpopping a layer out of the distribution channel. there is also very little r&d late in the development curve.

fifth - i know plenty of folks from high end carpenters to photographers who charge more than that per hour - and with out a college degree.

This is a one time consultation and should be charged at a higher rate. Realistically you will probably see shops throwing it in as a loss leader when they sell a high end bike. Most shops already view mechanical service as a loss leader (read: no profit) At that point the reason to be ceritfied is soley to show some assurance of quality.

You’re totally right Jeff. It’s a market based economy. I also like your point about prices also being regional. I make a lot less money living here in the rural boonies than if my office was in Silicon Valley or Manhatten. But then my house costs a heck of a lot less also.

If a fitter can get $350. for a fitting then by all means go for it. I just don’t think that in most areas this is a reasonable price to charge based upon local economies.

I don’t think you can look at the fit as something that comes with a normal billable hourly fee. That is what MDs get for seeing patients. When they actually perform surgery, the cost is alot higher, in order of many thousands of dollers and up. That is what the bike fit is analagous to, surgery on your position. It is charged a flat rate as a service performed. You don’t pay the cardiologist 10000 if it only takes him 3 hours to do the bypass surgery and 15000 if it tkaes him 3.5. The same holds true for the bike fitter.

tommy

I live in the boonies but quite close to Kevin. It’s a high of -14 C(-3 F) today with a low tonight about -24 C(-10 F) tonight. I have tomorrow afternoon off and will take my dog with me for a cross county ski for a couple of hours in the forest trails near where I live. The air is so crisp and clean in these cold temps and the scenery is quite beautiful. Couldn’t live where you do in a desert. Tried it in New Mexico for awhile and it drove me nuts without forest, lakes and a change of season. Just thought it was too boring without the extreme variation of climate.

To answer your question our bike season starts about mid April or so, when we begin our first group rides. From about mid May to mid October is the peek season. This continues thru until about mid November when it starts to get cold again. In the early/late parts of the season we wear tights/gloves. Our summers are quie hot and humid in July/August. Winter month riding for all but the hardiest is on the trainer, although I do know a guy who commutes to work on his bike every day of the year regardless of the weather

Slowman,

How might John Cobb’s method of fitting be compared to FIST? Generally the same or very different?

Ms. Kansan, -dan said those of you that only expect to pay 50-75, insinuating that the price should be much higher than that. Also, the talk on the other threads have been around “150-200” - Tom Demerly.

I didnt mean to open up a huge can of worms and disagree with everything that dan said. I was trying to point out that the cost seemed quite extrmeme if the sport is a hobby, or something to do, and not the major component of your life (ie pro, semi-pro, elite age grouper, etc)

I am part of the university team down here. When i talked to a few people and we found that the price for a bike fitting using power, computrainer, etc, along with years of background, in kingston was $85 Cdn, most people hit the roof. They thought it was outrageous. In our league (series, whatever you want to call it) there are around 200 athletes, many of which either compete at the elite level, or could if they wished. (one guy i run with runs a 15:30 5k, and his swim is pretty impressive too, i havent seen him on the bike yet), and yet i can assure you that many of them have never been professionally fitted, or would think about paying the money any time soon, (with the exception of a few “bulldog” athletes from hamilton, and one guy from our team who is a competitor at Jr. Nationals)

I consider myself average. I think i spent more than average on my bike, which in hindsight i hope pays off. Paying 150-200 US for a bike fit, plus travelling costs to a person like me sounds very high, and slightly unessecary.

I had a pretty sweet job this year, i was working at the hospital, making $14/hour, which for me was awesome money. It would take me 2 days, not including tax deductions to afford the fit alone, not including travelling costs.

I realize that Triathlon isnt a poorman’s sport, but as there is talk of opening up the sport to a younger crowd, trying to get more media coverage and extend the demographics of those who do the sport, i personally dont think that charging this much money for something so “essential” is going to encourage growth.

In reply to your question dan, as cervelo guy said, there is still TONS (and i mean tons, like 4-5ft piles on the side of the road) here, and it was -15C yesterday, with windchill, somewhere around -20-25. We have an outdoor triathlon in march as the championships to the university series. I most likely wont head outside until april. I am trying to spend a few hours on the trainer every week, but with class and homework, it becomes tough. When school ends and summer starts, probably 6+ hours/week. It isnt a lot compared to some, but its a lot i find for me.

I am trying to justify paying for a bike fit, and as you stated, i basically want to know why i am paying what i should pay, what i will get out of it. How do i know that i am getting the “best” fit at a FIST certified place, when i could go somewhere else and possibly get it for much cheaper. I most likely will take the trip to T.O. to see dan at enduro sport. From what i have been told, his price is $70CDN, which i find reasonable, esp. if it does improve my splits and comfort on the bike. If his price all of a sudden skyrockets to $100-200+, i may rethink this, and find somewhere else that can do it cheaper, and maybe just as well.

I was going to write earlier that with the license # of CFU thing, they are centrally regulated by a board or something like that, (and i think government recognized??) whereas bike fitting, if i saw FIST certified and HADNT read/heard about either you or slowtwitch, i wouldnt know what the hell it meant, and comparing their prices to those of other places, probably would wonder what the heck is up with the price (assuming that the FIST price will be in the range that was quoted earlier, and on other threads.)

That may be the solution… a standardized fitting method, employed by EVERYONE: bike shops, companies, etc. However, i dont think it will happen overnight, and it wont be easy to achieve. Until that time comes, and hopefully a standardized price can be agreed upon that is reasonable to all involved, people will continue to play the market to see what it can bear, and average people like myself will continue to bitch about high prices. If i cannot be assured of some major benefit to going to a FIST certified place, or any other place for that matter charging large sums of money, i probably will try and find somewhere cheaper, or someone who gives a guarntee on their work, ie, 1 year trial period type thing.

Dan, you said that the goal of FIST was not to drive the prices of a bike fitting higher, but already it has seemed to have done that. Tom, who was talking about charging approx. $75 in past weeks is now talking about $150-200. I have to ask the question, by being FIST certified, who are you trying to help, the bike shop owner so that they can improve profits by allowing them to charge more money, or the people who ride the bikes by giving them a good service at a reasonable price? You stated that both Dan and Tom probably didnt have to be at the camp, they already had the knowlege that you could have given them, and both their rates i though were reasonable ($70CD & $70US). If their prices now skyrockey and double or even triple, then i dont think FIST was a success.

Ill stop rambling now.

-Kevin

P.S. I understand that a M.D. and Bike Fitter should and do bill differently, i was merely trying to make a comparison to the rates that were charged by different professions with different levels of skill.

Discussion of economics and including John Cobb in the mix is interesting. I had John paint my bike and then do a fitting a few years back. Total bill was $200. Most striking about the fit job was while the fit was ongoing UPS arrived with a large box that turned out to be an autographed yellow jersey from Lance Armstrong thanking him for his help.
Latest catlog quotes $300- $1500 for a paint job and fitting is anywhere from $200 on up depending on the venue.
My fit was great as was the paint job, however now because of the reputation, my bill could be in excess of $1000 for the same services. I truly doubt that the quality would be different (already excellent) only the rep of the fitter. Much to be said for a standardized fit philosophy and pricing according.
Also met Dan in Austin many years ago when he did the QR road shows, the sessions on fit and bikes in general reflect an evolution into the sophisticated approach (my uneducated view) now known as FIST. My next bike (Yaqui Marila DL) will be sure to incoporate the FIST approach.

Thanks,

fal7

“How might John Cobb’s method of fitting be compared to FIST?”

i don’t know.

okay, let’s assume, then, that the snow will melt and that you’ll be on your bike in, say, mid april. you appear to be a good candidate for this. i’d like to know, for an inquiry i’m conducting, whether you’d be willing to voluntarily stay off your bike entirely, no racing, no training, indoors or out, for two months, starting april 15 and going through june 15.

what i’d like to know is, in american dollars, what might i have to pay in order for you to do that? and i’d like to know how many hours a week you’d normally be intending to ride during that time.

Dan, you said that the goal of FIST was not to drive the prices of a bike fitting higher, but already it has seemed to have done that. Tom, who was talking about charging approx. $75 in past weeks is now talking about $150-200. I have to ask the question, by being FIST certified, who are you trying to help, the bike shop owner so that they can improve profits by allowing them to charge more money, or the people who ride the bikes by giving them a good service at a reasonable price?

If you go to the FIST dealer info on this site, you will read the following.

Chapter 6. (5:15PM to 6:00PM) What are the economics of tri bike-fitting? How does this differ from performing a road bike fit? What will the market bear? How is this best executed?

I think that FIST is definitely an attempt to standardize fit in the industry, and in some sense dan’s efforts are admirable because no one else really seems interested. However, I also feel that the camp cannot help but be helpful to the shop in terms of being able to charge more by calling themselves “certified”. For example, I set up a new bike shop, I go to fist, and I am certified. Now I can market myself as a fit “expert”, but I don’t know very much more than I did after reading this site/bicycle sports site in detail. Something to think about, anyway.

Honestly, I was able to set myself up quite well using a video camera, tripod, and a bunch of internet printouts. I look precisely like many of the pictures I have seen called examples of “good fit”. The videotape shows that I do not rock or bob improperly. This cost me exactly nothing.

As far as a “science” of fit, I respectfully request that people look up Keith Bontragers (who has a good science background) paper on fit. His point: the various fit systems are innacurate in different ways because they all make assumptions that do not apply to to all people. For example, the idea of knee over pedal spindle has no basis in biomechanics…it just so happens that most people will do alright in roughly that position. More food for thought.

Philbert