Epicenter

I’m reading this book by Joel Rosenberg. It is about his interpretation of trends he sees relating to the end times as predicted the Hebrew prophet Ezekiel in chapters 38-39 of the old testament. It fascinating. Some of the trends seem to be unfolding right before our eyes. I’m not through the whole books but some of the trends to look for are:

  1. Israel becoming extremely prosperous (oil reserves to be found).

  2. A czar rising out of Russia with power centralized again (hmmm what’s that guys name)

  3. An alliance between Russia and Iran (happening)

  4. Iraq becoming a world economic leader (think Balylon).

While reading this book and observing many other things in the world, the trends suggest to me that we may be in the end times. I don’t really know this but it is interesting and it has me thinking.

My question is do you think any of this has merit and if you thought you were in the end times, would it cause you to do anything in your life differently?

  1. Israel becoming extremely prosperous (oil reserves to be found).

  2. A czar rising out of Russia with power centralized again (hmmm what’s that guys name)

  3. An alliance between Russia and Iran (happening)

  4. Iraq becoming a world economic leader (think Balylon).

None of those things are referenced in Ezekiel, with the possible exception of #3 only if you accept that Magog = Russia, which (outside of US rapture-ready evangicals) is hardly a certainty.

None of those things are referenced in Ezekiel, with the possible exception of #3 only if you accept that Magog = Russia,

Ah…but you tie it in with the St. Malachi prophecies and the Secrets of Fatima an it makes perfect sense!<;)

Bernie

Is he also a sci-fi author? Doesn’t detract from his religious material per se (at least not for me, but it’s interesting). Just wanted to point out this would not be the first time (for slightly less than 2000 years) that Christians have been forecasting the end of times.

I liked this from his site:

“His second thriller – The Last Days – opens with the death of Yasser Arafat and a U.S. diplomatic convoy ambushed in Gaza. Two weeks before The Last Days was published in hardcover, a U.S. diplomatic convoy was ambushed in Gaza. Thirteen months later, Yasser Arafat died.”

He can predict the deathes of famous politicians.

*1. Israel becoming extremely prosperous (oil reserves to be found). *

Ezekiel Chapter 38 (This passage pertains to the period after the rebirth of Israel but before the Russian-Iranian attack)

8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you (dictator of Russia) will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

10 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. 11 You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. 12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land.” 13 Sheba and Dedan (Sauidi Arabia and gulf states) and the merchants of Tarshish (Southern Spain, Europe or Mediterranean) and all her villages will say to you (the Russian dictator), “Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?” ’

Rosenberg says that prior to the attack, the Jews will have poured back into Israel, settling and in the process of rebuilding the ancient ruins and “formerly desolate cities” of Israel, have become wealthy enouugh to acquire material goods, and Israel becomes so wealthy that even the Saudis and those in the gulf states can see that Russia and her allies covet Israel’s treasures.

Ezekiel 36:11 I will increase the number of men and animals upon you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

He also lists like seven old test. verses that suggest there will be a large oil find field found under Israel.

*2. A czar rising out of Russia with power centralized again (hmmm what’s that guys name) *

Chapter 38 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (Moscow & Toblosk per Rosenberg). 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords.

Rosenberg makes a good case that Magog refers to a people from the line of Noah, that eventually becase the Scythians, a nomadic people origianlly of Iranian stock who migrated from Central Asia to southern Russia in the 7th and 8th century B.C. They founded a rich and powerful empire that survived several centuries.

Ezekiel 38:10 - Russian leader will devise an evilplan

38:19 - God will oppose the leased with fury and anger.

38:4 and 38:9 - Russian leader will head an enormous army and will come like a storm against Israel

3. An alliance between Russia and Iran (happening)

Ezekiel 38:5 Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets,

4. Iraq becoming a world economic leader (think Balylon).

Iraq is described by Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah Daniel and the apostle John in Revelation as the center of unprecedented wealth and power in the last days. Rosenberg speculates that Iraq wil not be part of the judgement of Russia, Iran and other middle east counties and will be one of the few oil producer intact when the dust clears.

He did predict an airliner would crash into an American city before it happened if that makes you feel better. The book was calles The Last Jihad.

He is more an observer of trends rathing that the nutjob variety that puts a date on things.

I think the question is of the location/translation of “Magog”? Very quick research seems to imply that Magog is not universally equated with Russia.

No offense, last tri, but this is precisely the kind of thinking that can get humanity in serious trouble. People have been prophesizing the End of Days for thousands of years … Remember, its the Muslim terrorists who believe the end is soon as well. The worst thing that can happen is for the Christians, Jews and Muslims to make sure we have a WW3, wipe out half of humanity and for Jesus not to come back: Then what?

The antidote to what you are reading is this:

http://www.amazon.com/End-Days-Fundamentalism/dp/0195152050

Please take a look at it: Here are some excerpts:

“Millenialism pours urgent meaning into religious acts.”

“Constant anticipation, though, breeds desire to set a date, a climax to complete the excitement.”

“Sacred text aim for meanings words can’t get themselves around. They admit countless interpretations. Within one tradition, the interpretations bang up against each other in loud contradictions. Literalism seductively promises that you’ll know just what God wants of you. But in reality, everyone chooses an interpretation and its moral consequences.

“There are Jews who would prefer to be actors in a mythic drama, as along as they wear white hats and the Palestinians wear black … For a few who are convinced the End is underway, there’s empathy with the Christian Endtime believers,*** no matter how much they disagree on the final scene ***… I would prefer to shed the role and regain humanity.”

“People who see Israel through the lens of Endtimes prophecy are questionable allies … In the long run, their apocaliptic agenda has no room for Isreal as a normal country.”

“The relationship between Israeli Jews and American Christians presents a picture of missed meanings, ignored motives and mutually contradictory expectations”

Sorry, but I just can’t help myself … Gorenberg’s book enlightened and scared the crap out of me.

Peace out

The worst thing that can happen is for the Christians, Jews and Muslims to make sure we have a WW3, wipe out half of humanity and for Jesus not to come back: Then what?
**

Matt in SF will say “see I told you so”

But seriously, George Bush, the leader of the world Christian church, is buddies with Putin (magog). So how can the Christians be pushing the adenda to initiate any holy wars?

I will put your book on my list. I am interested in this topic.

The book looks into people trying to “hasten” the End: As in frantically spending $ millions looking for oil in Israel, trying to breed the Red Heifer, etc. … The best thing the books does is examine Isreal’s history and how Endtimers (including Muslims) view events through their various lenses. Many, many people believed the 1967 War was it (the Beginning of the End). It wasn’t.

*1. Israel becoming extremely prosperous (oil reserves to be found). *

10 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. 11 You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. 12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land.”
Sounds more like Switzerland than Israel.

“Some of the trends seem to be unfolding right before our eyes.”

Some fo the events will ALWAYS appear to be unfolding right before our eyes, because like all well written religious material most things are interpreted numerous ways.

People have been saying “the end is near” since man has been around to be able to say it. Eventually someone’s going to be right so what’s the point?

~Matt

World to end tonight at 10:00. Weather, Sports and that story tonight on Action News at 11

**Eventually someone’s going to be right so what’s the point? **

Matt, I think you hit on the two most important points: 1) no one knows the day or hour; and 2) if #1 is true, then what’s the point? Considering that I agree with you about #1 (Mt. 24:36), what is the point if no one knows and why all the apocolyptic talk in the Bible? I think the point is that we need to watch out and to be ready (vv. 42-44). In the same way that the Bible fiorewarned 1st Century christians to not go back into their homes when the Romans were coming, we need to be aware of the temptation of “Babylon”, the adultrous women, etc. Consider that the beauty and benefit of the OT is that we have examples of the Israelites continually messing this up. Revelation tells us that this will happen in the end time, and warns us to stop repeating the same mistakes of the Israelites. We, as servants and stewards, want to be ready if the Master comes back during our watch. We want Him to say, “Well done good and faithful servant.”

I guess I was more interested in the hypothetical that if you saw credible evidence, would you live your life differently or same-o same-o. WOuld you eat desert first, would you quit work, would you get to church, would you try to help your fellow man or turn into a barbarian?

To add an interesting book to the list that I just finished.

The Truth About Mohammed by Robert Spencer.

Pretty interesting analysis about the prophet and how the religion was founded, what and why certain beliefs are held today.
Personal opinion but it helped me to understand some of the tensions in the middle east.
The author even had a bounty put out on him.

“I guess I was more interested in the hypothetical that if you saw credible evidence, would you live your life differently or same-o same-o.”

Before we get to credible evidence for the end of the world supposedly prophicied in a book we would need to have credible evidence that the book should be viewed as anything more than mediocre literature.

People have the wonderful ability to pick and chose events as necessary to build a “logical” case for almost any deeply held belief.

If I literally believed that this was the End of Days that would also imply Christian beliefs and so I would be interested in living my life first and foremost as a good Christian and allowing geopolitical events to occur on their own time.

“would you live your life differently”

Why would I? To live differently would mean I’m not living my life the way I want to now…so if that’s an issue maybe people should make changes so they’re living their life they way you want to, all the time, reguardless of impending doom or not

About the only changes I could see making if I KNEW that the world was going to end some time before I died, might be changing my retirement planning.

Before we go off on “But maybe this could let you KNOW”…I’m WAY farther into hard factual information than “loose iterpretation”. IOW just short of some “Superior being” coming into my room and saying, “Dude I’m destroying the earth tomorrow. Oh and here’s some proof, tomorrow Africa will be gone” and I wake up in the morning to the “Morning show” exclaiming the mystery of “Disappearing Africa, is it the end of the world?”…short of that…I’m not believing it.

~Matt

“I think the point is that we need to watch out and to be ready”

I’m not much of a religious man, but isn’t the point to be living your life “properly” ALL the time? If you just do what you’re told by whatever religion you belong to then by default aren’t you “Ready”.

I’m no theologian, but seems to me that nothing you or anyone else does is going to change the end from coming, according to the bible. Since we can’t change that what’s to worry about, if you believe that. If you’re not living your life according to your religion…well then you’re screwed anyway because you’re not going to see it coming. Either way, what’s the point?

So either live your life according to your religion or don’t either way worrying about the “End times” is fruitless.

For the rest of us non religious types…there’s even less of a point.

~Matt