Epicenter

The Coffee Shop
21

Matt, again, I think you’re hitting on great points.

**I’m not much of a religious man, but isn’t the point to be living your life “properly” ALL the time? If you just do what you’re told by whatever religion you belong to then by default aren’t you “Ready”. **

Absolutely, but consider that according to Biblical Christianlity, the standard of “living your life ‘properly’” is perfect obedience in thought, word and deed. Of course, this is impossible, which is why the need and have a Savior Jesus Christ. Of course, we’re hypocrites when we fail. We need continual reminders. That is the beauty and wisdom of considering the Second Coming. We should dwell on it (not to try to predict it) to be ready when the Master returns.

**If you’re not living your life according to your religion…well then you’re screwed anyway because you’re not going to see it coming. **

Not “screwed” as such. The fact of our salvation is not dependent on us, but on christ. Yet, our standing in heaven is based on our sancitificaiton (or, what we do once we’re “saved”). So, there is a reward for good behavior. Thus the wisdom in having the threat of the Master returning at any time. Even though we preach against succuming to temptation, Christians are not immune to temptation (surprise, surprise); thus, we are perpetually and rightfully accused of being hypocrites. So, any reasonable provocation to lead us into adhering to the standard set by Christ is good. IOW, if that preacher (that the Lavender Room has been discussing recently) would have considered, “Is this the state in which I would like the Master to find me upon arriving,” prior to whatever conduct he did, then I think he would have been better off.

**For the rest of us non religious types…there’s even less of a point. **

I think this, for the most part, is generally correct insofar as you are not inclined to be concerned about the timing of a Master’s return that you don’t first believe to exist.

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I have two parts of your response to Matt I was hoping you could clarify, if you have time.

“The fact of our salvation is not dependent on us, but on christ.”
If it is a given that Jesus was the son of God and died for man’s sins, then wouldn’t our salvation be dependant upon us? (in terms of our belief in Jesus)

“Yet, our standing in heaven is based on our sancitificaiton (or, what we do once we’re “saved”).”
I just don’t understand what this means. I’ve heard people talk of a “proximity” to God in heaven, is that what this is?

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It just amazes me that books like these, and the revelations, have any traction in the human race today. I guess we have not come that far from our tribal ancestors, who looked at the sky and saw holes in it, or figured we would sail off the edge if we went far enough. Does anyone else out there just see this as silly BS for the easily led masses??? AM I all alone out here??? I mean come on here. As far back a Plato and Aristotle, enlightened men have known that this stuff is just to keep the massses in a constant state of fear, and thus, easier to manipulate. But looking at todays world climate, I guess I really shouldn’t be suprised. I’ll tell you when the world will end, either when a metor the size of Hawaii hits us, or in 5 billion years when the sun expands into a giant fireball, and engulfs the planet. As for when humans will end, that is still a mystery. Depends if we survive this time we are in, where out technology may have exceded our capacity to adapt to it. As a race, we are like a 5 year old, playing with a loaded gun…

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" The fact of our salvation is not dependent on us, but on christ."

For certain variants of christianity it is dependant on “recieving Christ as your saviour”. Unless things have changed since I was going to church once you’ve accepted Jesus christ as your saviour, your good to go, unless you reject him again.

My point is pretty simple. If you’re a Christian, and you’ve accepted Jesus and asked for forgiveness, been saved or whatever is necessary, you’re going to heaven. If you haven’t you’re going to hell. Sure the bible say’s, in not so few words “Live a good life” but living a “not so good life” as you have pointed out, does not condem you to hell if you have accepted Jesus as your saviour. Sooooo once again when and how god comes back is of no importance. Either you’re going or not going.

“Yet, our standing in heaven is based on our sancitificaiton (or, what we do once we’re “saved”).”

I’ve never heard this from “Christianity” outside of Catholisism, where pergatory is step one. My understanding of most non Catholic religions is that “either your saved or not” Good behavior gets you no where and once we’re in heaven we’re all equal.

“Thus the wisdom in having the threat of the Master returning at any time.”

And this was/is kinda my underlying point. The “threat”, as you put it is not one of prediction, but one of correction, like having a patrol car taking radar along the road. The main difference, and the part that confuses me, is that there is something to be gained by trying to predict where the patrol car is, you don’t get a ticket. There is nothing to be gained by predictiing “When the end will come”, especially if you’re already “Saved”.

I could see someone that is not saved trying to predict the “End”, but that is rarely if ever the case, it’s always seems to be those that are already saved. Is it simply utilizing the threat?

~Matt

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**My question is do you think any of this has merit **

As in signifying the End of Days? No.

and if you thought you were in the end times, would it cause you to do anything in your life differently?

Probably see a mental health counsellor.

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No you’re not the only one. And even more surprising, to me anyway, is that ALOT of the “believers” are highly educated and inteligent individuals.

Personally I’ve just come to accept this as much of a fact as the difference in many political opinions. I often try to just understand where people are coming from, if for no other reason than it’s just such a foreign thought process to me.

~Matt

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Check out “The History of God” by Karen Armstrong for a thorough historical analysis of the concept of God (Yaweh, Jesus & Allah specifically), how it came to be, evolved, and survived over the years. Very interesting read.

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At the risk of hitchhiking this thread …

“The fact of our salvation is not dependent on us, but on Christ.”
If it is a given that Jesus was the son of God and died for man’s sins, then wouldn’t our salvation be dependant upon us? (in terms of our belief in Jesus)
Do you have a few weeks? Briefly, I think you’re confusing a few issues. Consider that in the famous “string of salvation” (Rom 8:28-30) God is the actor; not us. Further, consider two things: 1) from a spiritual standpoint, we are “dead in our trespasses and sins.” (Eph 2:1) Spiritually dead people can’t do anything for spiritually themselves; they’re dead; and 2) If our justification* were dependent on us, then we would have something to boast about before God. (Rom 3:21-31) We clearly don’t.

So, what about that phrase that arose from the Reformation**, “we are saved by grace alone, by faith alone, through Christ alone”? Although “faith” is the “instrumental cause” (Aristotle’s chisel) of our salvation, it is the Spirit that must first move in our hearts to quicken us to have that faith. We are filled with the Spirit after (or, “as part of”) justification. A fruit of the Spirit’s quickening our hearts is our “saving faith.” So, we are saved by believing in the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to us. But, our faith (or, belief) in that righteousness is not an option once the Spirit quickens us, it is a necessary fruit of God’s work in us. IOW, it’s all from God and not dependent on us … thankfully.

*“salvation” as a doctrine contains much more than mere justification. It also contains election, calling, predestination, etc.; so I’ll be more precise in this post to use “justification” to be accurate. Google the Westminster Confession of Faith’s Shorter Catechism to get a precise definition of “justification” and note who does all the acting. In my post to Matt, I was being more general. Sorry, if that was the source of any confusion.

**I understand that nearly everything I’m saying here is risking us re-hashing the entire Reformation. Sorry about that.

“Yet, our standing in heaven is based on our sancitificaiton (or, what we do once we’re “saved”).”
I just don’t understand what this means. I’ve heard people talk of a “proximity” to God in heaven, is that what this is?

Honestly, your guess is as good as mine. Yet, the Bible repeatedly refers to the degrees of our reward in Heaven; not just the reward of merely attaining Heaven. As to proximity to the Throne, I’m not sure. Maybe, the proximity issue, which is definitely alluded to in the Bible (e.g., Mt 20: 20-28), is just a way for us humans who are afflicted with pea-sized brains to understand the joys of Heaven and our standing therein.

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For certain variants of christianity it is dependant on “recieving Christ as your saviour”. Unless things have changed since I was going to church once you’ve accepted Jesus christ as your saviour, your good to go, unless you reject him again.
I tried to explain the confusion in a post to Tridiot. Hopefully, that clears this up.

**My point is pretty simple. If you’re a Christian, and you’ve accepted Jesus and asked for forgiveness, been saved or whatever is necessary, you’re going to heaven. If you haven’t you’re going to hell. Sure the bible say’s, in not so few words “Live a good life” but living a “not so good life” as you have pointed out, does not condem you to hell if you have accepted Jesus as your saviour. **

There are two issues that you’re blending together. #1) There is the question of whether we’re going to Heaven or Hell. #2) Once #1 is determined, the Bible definitely conveys that your position in Heaven relative to others (in Heaven) is impacted by what you do. So, any reminder (e.g., “Christ is coming; so watch out”) that helps us in our #2 is a benefit.

**Sooooo once again when and how god comes back is of no importance. **

I sort of agree insofar as I agree that the “when” and “how” is not important and that’s why the Bible gives us (despite the many books written on this issue) so few clues on this issue. Yet, the Bible’s message of “watch out” is very important for out sanctification.

I’ve never heard this from “Christianity” outside of Catholisism, where pergatory is step one. My understanding of most non Catholic religions is that “either your saved or not” Good behavior gets you no where and once we’re in heaven we’re all equal.
Well, hopefully you’ve now been disabused of that understanding. If you want more proof, then Google the Westminster Confession of Faith, Shorter Catechism for a definition of “Sanctification.” As further clarification on the RCC v. Protestant difference: RCC generally considers that justification and sanctification are the same thing; whereas, Protestants distinguish them.
**And this was/is kinda my underlying point. The “threat”, as you put it is not one of prediction, but one of correction, like having a patrol car taking radar along the road. The main difference, and the part that confuses me, is that there is something to be gained by trying to predict where the patrol car is, you don’t get a ticket. There is nothing to be gained by predictiing “When the end will come”, **

Right. We should treat it as the patrol car that could be around every turn.

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What amazes me is that prophecies from 2,500 years ago tie into current trends in the middle east. I’m not saying we are in the end times nor do I even care. That is God’s business. It wouldn’t change my outlook if I thought we were.

Is there no small part of you that wonders if some of this is true or can you say with absolute certainty that you know better?

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“What amazes me is that prophecies from 2,500 years ago tie into current trends in the middle east.”

I believe what others are saying is that the prophecies have tied into current trends for the past 2,499 years.

Someone should start a website that monitors the trends of these predictions, and could even go back historically to show how many of them were fulfilled (or whatever term fits) at varies times. It’d be interesting to see if we have a trend in any direction, or if we’re even at the fullest level of fulfillment.

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" “What amazes me is that prophecies from 2,500 years ago tie into current trends in the middle east.”

I believe what others are saying is that the prophecies have tied into current trends for the past 2,499 years."

Zacly… Personally, sent I’ve spent more than my fair share of time in church as a child, I’ve been hearing doosmday preaching and how they tie into “current events” since I was a wee spot of lad. I believe nearly everything in the bible can, with proper incentive, be interpreted in multiple ways. I think I’ve heard nearly a GAGILLION explanations and interpretations on the number 666 alone. This is nothing new by a far cry.

It would be interesting study to but some of the “predictions” and “prophecies” down on a timeline.

Might make for an interesting Discovery Channel special or book. “The History of Doomsday”

~Matt

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Flipping a few chapters earlier in Ezekiel to chapter 36 God vows to bring the Jewish people back to Israel. That sort of happened about 1948.

Does stuff like that make you say hmmmmmmm?

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“Does stuff like that make you say hmmmmmmm?”

Uhhhh, no. Because I pretty much guarentee that someone back in 1948 said, “Yep this means the end is very near”. Still however almost a half a century later, we’re still here.

If I’m not mistaken back when the original gulf war started ther were several “Predictions”, bears rising in the east, fire brimstone etc etc…still here. Also IF you go back further, even more predictions…still here, further more prediction…waiting…waiting.

If I said “Hmmmmm” everytime I heard someone say “The end is near”…the end would always be near.

I got better things to do with my life than go “Hmmmmm, I wonder if the end is near”…like post here.

~Matt

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Is there no small part of you that wonders if some of this is true or can you say with absolute certainty that you know better? \

I don’t know crap. I can’t predict the future, and neither can anyone else. You can make broad statements, or even detailed ones, and given enough time, some of them will come true. You quote the bible about the Jews return to their homeland. Is there nothing ridicolus in the bible that you can just not come to grips with?? Or is it all literal and cut and dry for you? I see that bible scholars and different ministers can’t even agree on the bible’s meanings and translations, so how can any of it be taken literally. DO we actually have an original, un edited version of the bible? NOt that it would make it any more valid as a predictor of the future, but an interesting question if you are going to base your beliefs on it…

SO to answer your question, I don’t know better, and the only thing that makes me wonder, is when and if, the human race will evolve past this point where we follow blindly the superstitions of our ancient ancestors.

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Monte, for the record, I don’t know crap either. I just find this interesting and if you don’t that’s cool. I’m not trying to evangelize you on an internet forum. I just thought it is an interesting book and wanted to discuss it.