Calderon berates US for using drugs

The Coffee Shop
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So we’re the largest consumer of illegal drugs in the world. So our party money goes to fund illegal cartel operations, corruption and murders. So the drug cartel’s guns mostly and almost exclusively come from the US. How’s that our problem. Com’on, if Mexico would stop selling American drugs, American’s wouldn’t do drugs. The fact that they keep sending us drugs is the problem. We’re not to blame!

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - President Felipe Calderon declared three days of mourning on Friday and demanded a crackdown on drugs in the United States after armed men torched a casino in northern Mexico, killing at least 52 people.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-mexico-crimetre77o88v-20110825,0,1460161.story

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So we’re the largest consumer of illegal drugs in the world. So our party money goes to fund illegal cartel operations, corruption and murders. So the drug cartel’s guns mostly and almost exclusively come from the US. ** How’s that our problem. Com’on, if Mexico would stop selling American drugs, American’s wouldn’t do drugs. The fact that they keep sending us drugs is the problem. We’re not to blame! **

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - President Felipe Calderon declared three days of mourning on Friday and demanded a crackdown on drugs in the United States after armed men torched a casino in northern Mexico, killing at least 52 people.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/...0825,0,1460161.story

Was that suppose to be in pink?

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If Calderon were logical and if he really wanted to break the cartels, then he would be berating the US for prohibiting the drugs, since that’s why the cartels have the power they do.

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Which drugs should be allowed? Would we tax them coming accross the border? If we make them legal here in the US, should Mexico make them legal? Do we then let everyone who is in jail for drug related offenses out of jail? Give me some details on this legalization concept because it sounds easy on the surface, but it’s not.

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(1) All of them. (2) No. (3) Yes. (4) Probably, but it depends on what you mean by “drug related.”

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If Calderon were logical and if he really wanted to break the cartels, then he would be berating the US for prohibiting the drugs, since that’s why the cartels have the power they do.

The power of the cartels derives primarily from the (Mexican) laws they break, not the laws the U.S. makes. To suggest that eliminating US drug laws will eliminate incentive to break Mexican law is absurd. If there is a) demand, and b) cheap production the cartels will have power.

As long as the cartels are allowed to break labor and tax laws, they will always win the production war. Growing marijuana in CA is essentially legal - some figures suggest it’s 2/3 the economy of Mendocino County. But CA pot will never compete at the low end of the market with Mexican pot because US growers tend to comply with US labor and tax laws. Remember what happened to US sugar production? Same thing with drugs. Global labor arbitrage. Even eliminating the minimum wage would have little effect. The cartels employ labor on the order of cents per hour.

Calderon is absolutely right, but it’s a cop-out. U.S. demand is not going to change. Mexico needs to enforce the laws it has on the books with respect to labor, tax, weapons, exports, and public sector corruption.

I’ll add that the RAND corp estimated that less than 1/3 of cartel profits come from exporting drugs to the U.S. They are diversified global businesses, not simply drug runners.

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“The power of the cartels derives primarily from the (Mexican) laws they break, not the laws the U.S. makes.”

Power doesn’t come from breaking laws it comes from money. Drugs are a pure cash business so there is lots and lots of power.

"As long as the cartels are allowed to break labor and tax laws, they will always win the production war. Growing marijuana in CA is essentially legal - some figures suggest it’s 2/3 the economy of Mendocino County. But CA pot will never compete at the low end of the market with Mexican pot because US growers tend to comply with US labor and tax laws. Remember what happened to US sugar production? Same thing with drugs. Global labor arbitrage. Even eliminating the minimum wage would have little effect. The cartels employ labor on the order of cents per hour. "

Maybe. I agree some drugs will still be sold and bought illegally but from what I have observed most users, especially weed heads, will pay for the safety of legally sold stuff. Also you will be putting the cartels in a legal and open market which will put them in competition with other companies that don’t play by their rules so a lot of the violence will be cut down because it will not be needed.

"I’ll add that the RAND corp estimated that less than 1/3 of cartel profits come from exporting drugs to the U.S. They are diversified global businesses, not simply drug runners. "

The operating capital comes from the untraceable cash of the drug sales. So let me take 1/3 of you companies profits an then you tell me it’s only 1/3.

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Power doesn’t come from breaking laws it comes from money. Drugs are a pure cash business so there is lots and lots of power.

And the money comes from…breaking laws.

I have observed most users, especially weed heads, will pay for the safety of legally sold stuff.

I suspect that by “most users”, you mean most-users-who-are-generally-in-the-same-socio-economic-class-that-I-am. And they think they’re buying legally. Even the legal pot shops in CA are suspected of selling Mexican weed. Unless you’re buying it direct from a grower you trust, there is very little transparency in the supply chain.

Also you will be putting the cartels in a legal and open market

Once more: cartels break laws. You are not putting them in a legal and open market.

The operating capital comes from the untraceable cash of the drug sales.

Or human trafficking. Or kidnapping. Or corrupting Pemex and selling oil on the black market. Or weapons trafficking. These are high-profit cash businesses.

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So we’re the largest consumer of illegal drugs in the world. So our party money goes to fund illegal cartel operations, corruption and murders. So the drug cartel’s guns mostly and almost exclusively come from the US. How’s that our problem. Com’on, if Mexico would stop selling American drugs, American’s wouldn’t do drugs. The fact that they keep sending us drugs is the problem. We’re not to blame!

Wrong! Look into it a little, and you’ll find that only a small fraction comes from US gun shops.

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The problem is the war on drugs in the US, the illegality is the problem and the private prison system, the many government employed that fight the war on drugs, the pharma, and the cotton industry all benefit from its illegality, as do the drug cartels that welcome the war on drugs as it increases prices and their profitability.

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So we’re the largest consumer of illegal drugs in the world. So our party money goes to fund illegal cartel operations, corruption and murders. So the drug cartel’s guns mostly and almost exclusively come from the US. How’s that our problem. Com’on, if Mexico would stop selling American drugs, American’s wouldn’t do drugs. The fact that they keep sending us drugs is the problem. We’re not to blame!

Wrong! Look into it a little, and you’ll find that only a small fraction comes from US gun shops.

Can you show proof?

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Wrong! Look into it a little, and you’ll find that only a small fraction comes from US gun shops.

Can you show proof?

Yes, but it’s better to just type something like “mexico gun source” into your search engine, and read the first few articles.

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If there is a) demand, and b) cheap production the cartels will have power.

If drugs were legal in the US and illegal in Mexico we could EASILY undercut Mexican drug prices and make our own drugs.

We would be a net EXPORTER of drugs to Mexico and they would still have the same problem.

My guess is that in very short order after complete legalization of drugs in the US every country south of Texas would adopt a similar legal stance.** **The main reason they don’t now is because WE don’t want them to and WE fund a good deal of their anti drug forces.

Growing marijuana in CA is essentially legal - some figures suggest it’s 2/3 the economy of Mendocino County.

Even in Mendocino county there are fairly large restrictions on size of the production and there is nothing like what would happen if it was REALLY legal. Show me one “Pot farm” that uses a 200+HP John Deere.

But CA pot will never compete at the low end of the market with Mexican pot because US growers tend to comply with US labor and tax laws.

Most US pot growers are one or two man shows limited by a certain number of plants where “Labor laws” don’t even enter the equation.

Somehow “Tax laws” are a major factor in pot, but almost inconsequential in everything else? I mean 35 to 39.5, no biggy but Tax in the US and no tax in Mexico, can’t compete?

Remember what happened to US sugar production?   Same thing with drugs.

Sugar production was completely legal. Meaning we simply were not competitive.

Now I would completely agree that if drugs were legal in Mexico and in the US we’d be buying Mexican drugs, for many reasons. However if drugs were ILLEGAL in Mexico and Legal in the US there’s absolutely no way Mexican drugs could compete.

What you’re saying is that a cartel in Mexico, with only minor agricultural knowledge, an infrastructure burdened by gang violence and fighting authorities could produce a product under those conditions, Illegally ship it to the US, Illegally distribute it at a price cheaper than Monsanto, A farmer with thousands of acres, a distribution company and Walgreens could? No way, period.

I’ll add that the RAND corp estimated that less than 1/3 of cartel profits come from exporting drugs to the U.S. They are diversified global businesses, not simply drug runners.

And the estimation is that 60% of their profits come from pot. And you’re saying they can grow the stuff in hidden fields and buildings, distribute it to the US, again illegally, cheaper than we can basically grow corn. I mean honestly, who would even buy pot from a dealer on the street if you could pick it up from Walgreens, even if it WAS cheaper?

I think you’re way off base on this one.

~Matt

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"And the money comes from…breaking laws. "

The money comes from the sale of a product to a consumer. If braking laws made money I would make pizza money off all the red lights I run on my bike rides. Yes I am one of those riders but with a good reason in my own head.

“I suspect that by “most users”, you mean most-users-who-are-generally-in-the-same-socio-economic-class-that-I-am. And they think they’re buying legally.”

There is no legal weed in Texas so everyone I know who smokes gets it illegally.

"Unless you’re buying it direct from a grower you trust, there is very little transparency in the supply chain. "

Correct and if where legal to grow and sale in the US the government would form laws about growing and sales and create a transparent supply chain. You legalize something you have a ton more control. My friends would buy the legal stuff because it would be easier and cheaper.

"Once more: cartels break laws. You are not putting them in a legal and open market. "

If the cartels have to compete with US companies with strong distribution abilities and excellent production faculties their over priced crap would not sale. It’s pure economics. I could produce illegal beer but who would buy it since legal stuff is available everywhere? As the rum runners how business was after prohibition was lifted.

"Or human trafficking. Or kidnapping. Or corrupting Pemex and selling oil on the black market. Or weapons trafficking. These are high-profit cash businesses. "

Are you trying to convince me cartels are evil? I already know that. If you are trying to say they don’t need drug money then you really need to do some research.

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"But CA pot will never compete at the low end of the market with Mexican pot "

Every smoker I know pays, or wishes they could pay, for top shelf lab grown shit that is expensive. A smoker will pay extra for the “kind bud” because it’s a better high.

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Tibbs, us American’s screw ourselves at every turn. Those people that want to party with pot, coke, whatever are buying them illegally from criminal organizations. One person getting high means nothing, but multiply that by millions and now we’re really impacting geopolitics and crime. The economic and social costs of those people using illegal drugs is unimaginable. Yes, 50 people getting killed in a Monterrey disco is horrible, or 500 in Ciudad Juarez, or 30,000 in the last few years in Mexico. But we have 1,000 gang murders in every single American city every single year. Every year. And American gangs are funded by drug money primarily.

I’ve struggled with whether we should legalize pot and frankly my thought is no. What real value does legalizing pot contribute to society? Amsterdam is changing their laws to not allow “drug tourism”. Amsterdam has an illegal drug trade in pot. They also have an illegal trade in prostitution and it is legal - plus they have prostitution tourism. Legalizing drugs would not decrease the costs of enforcement, treatment, and more.

I always think of the old analogy of what would happen if someone were to invent alcohol today. Assume it never existed - would we allow alcohol to be manufactured or distributed? The addiction, the health effects, the drunk driving, the violance, etc. Of course not.

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"But CA pot will never compete at the low end of the market with Mexican pot "

Every smoker I know pays, or wishes they could pay, for top shelf lab grown shit that is expensive. A smoker will pay extra for the “kind bud” because it’s a better high.

It was brought up before but you’re only looking at your circle of acquintences…broaden that group of smokers and I think you’ll get a large portion who are only willing and/or able to smoke the cheapest available option.

I agree, though: legalize these drugs, get it over with! The Mexican cartel influence will need to be analyzed to determine how to handle illegally grown pot outside the US but I think that’s just a barrier to legalization, not a roadblock. There are too many benefits to legalizing–freeing up the prison system of non-violent offenders, tax benefits, eliminating (or at least reducing) an enormous black market, freeing the country of the influence of dangerous and deadly cartels…it just makes too much sense, which is why I have no hope of it being accomplished in the next few decades :slight_smile:

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Every smoker I know pays, or wishes they could pay, for top shelf lab grown shit that is expensive. A smoker will pay extra for the “kind bud” because it’s a better high.

Just like people will pay 20$ or more for 6 pack of good beer or 12$ for a 24pk of…well…camel piss, every market has it’s range.

If something is legal you will have the guys growing lab grade premium stuff, “Micro grows” and a guy doing mass harvesting of ditch weed to fulfill the market demand “Macro Grows” and everything in between.

If it is legal you can throw every resource available at PRODUCTION rather than evasion of the law, protection from enemies and so forth.

Prohibition did not stop people from getting alcohol it just knocked all the large and efficient producers out of the market. Prices went up, people still got alcohol, but it was no where near the quality or the price and that was a condition where it was LEGAL for the neighboring countries to manufacture and export it.

~Matt

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Tibbs, us American’s screw ourselves at every turn.

When I first read this I thought you had turned into a South Carolinian Pagent Contender.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww

I always think of the old analogy of what would happen if someone were to invent cars today. Assume they never existed - would we allow cars to be manufactured or distributed? The speeding, the deaths in accidents, the drunk driving, the road rage, etc. Of course not.

~Matt

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The sad thing is, to me, it’s still a big-time uphill battle. I talked to my parents about legalizing pot–the benefits, potential drawbacks and concerns, etc. They’re very open-minded people, they’ve both smoked pot once or twice, etc…yet they are incredibly hesitant to get on board and still believe it’s a dangerous drug and should be illegal. I think the scare tactics of the 80’s really did a number on alot of people in this country, even with personal experience with the drug they’ve been brainwashed, to a degree, into thinking marijuana is some awful mind-altering gateway drug that leads to violence and death. Sad, really, what misinformation can do to people’s perceptions.

So yea…I still think it’s a ways off before most people get on board with legalizing pot.