Analyzing swimming - high elbow

Triathlon Forum
1

in a different thread i asked about high cadence vs. low cadence in swimming and got conflicting opinions.
there was no consensus
now i want to know: is the “high elbow” technique definitely the right/better technique that everyone should strive to achieve?
or is it conditional (pool vs open water, IM’s vs. just swim, etc’)?

one thing that seems to be sure (and both hi & low cadence people agree upon) is that the amount of water you displace is important.
but if one compares high-elbow to completely dropped-elbow:

  1. high elbow stroke displaces less water, about 1/2 of what you can displace with dropped elbow (because the upper arm does not almost displace water in high-elbow)
  2. a hi-elbow stroke might take less time but i doubt it takes less than 1/2 the time a dropped-elbow stroke takes.

therefore if we consider the 2 techniques just from the point of view of amount of water displaced and the time it takes per stroke
the hi-elbow stroke technique seems inferior.

still i think of the two, high-elbow is better because of the reduced drag and the better usage of the muscles one can engage for the stroke
making the high-elbow stroke more efficient (requiring less effort for a given displacement of water in a given amount of time)

so… does anyone think that dropped-elbow is better than high elbow?

2

Underwater high elbow, or early vertical forearm, is nearly universal among successful swimmers. Not completely, but almost. How is that for a consensus?

High elbow recovery is far from universal, and striving to achieve it is a waste of time.

3

I predict more conflicting opinions, due in part to the way you’ve worded your question. Maybe you could further define what you mean by 1) high elbow, 2) everyone, 3) displaces less water

Do that, and I guarantee you will get the usual confusing gaggle of opinions typical of Slowtwitch. Don’t, and it’ll be total anarchy!

in a different thread i asked about high cadence vs. low cadence in swimming and got conflicting opinions.
there was no consensus
now i want to know: is the “high elbow” technique definitely the right/better technique that everyone should strive to achieve?
or is it conditional (pool vs open water, IM’s vs. just swim, etc’)?

one thing that seems to be sure (and both hi & low cadence people agree upon) is that the amount of water you displace is important.
but if one compares high-elbow to completely dropped-elbow:

  1. high elbow stroke displaces less water, about 1/2 of what you can displace with dropped elbow (because the upper arm does not almost displace water in high-elbow)
  2. a hi-elbow stroke might take less time but i doubt it takes less than 1/2 the time a dropped-elbow stroke takes.

therefore if we consider the 2 techniques just from the point of view of amount of water displaced and the time it takes per stroke
the hi-elbow stroke technique seems inferior.

still i think of the two, high-elbow is better because of the reduced drag and the better usage of the muscles one can engage for the stroke
making the high-elbow stroke more efficient (requiring less effort for a given displacement of water in a given amount of time)

so… does anyone think that dropped-elbow is better than high elbow?

4

so… does anyone think that dropped-elbow is better than high elbow?

I think that this might not really be the question. Simple experimentation can show you that dropping the elbow severely prevents you from paddling effectively. Rather, I would pose 2 that I think are absolutely pertinent to the developing swimmer:

  1. Is EVF a cause or an effect?
  2. How much does bad-ass Sun-Yang style EVF improve over a not-so EVF like Chris Thompson?? Or, is EVF the difference between a MOP and FOP swimmer?

My answers to this are as follows:

  1. it is an effect of proper timing amongst all of the body parts, primarily: head, hands, torso and feet; and of adequate flexibility which allows them to mitigate the effects of some of their timing deficiencies, or perhaps “necessary evils” such as breathing.
  2. it is a very small difference, BOP, MOP and most FOP swimmers should focus on propelling with their hands

Seriously - my experience has been most (but not all) athletes who focus on their elbow get all kinds of wacky stroke ticks as a result. Those who focus on maximizing the leverage that they feel on their hand tend to end up with higher elbows. Especially when they are flexibility limited (as a majority of adult onset swimmers are), attempts to have EVF often result in wicked crossover and dropped elbow. There are exceptions of course.

To me, most MOP, BOP and FOP swimmers should make sure that their hand points downward when pulling backward – i.e., fingertips pointing towards the bottom of the pool. whatever your elbow needs to do (or not do) in order to achieve this it should do. but if you do this, you won’t even need to think about your elbow. You might even find it WANTS to approach EVF.

Regards,
r.b.

5

I’m not seeing how a high elbow displaces less water at all.

The typical newb bad swimmer dropped elbow is almost similar to a running motion, where the arms seeks the path of LEAST resistance, and the elbow drops straight back behind the hand or pretty near to it to ‘hide’ from the water resistance. Unfortunately, if you create less resistance with your arm, you’re getting less of a pull through the water.

In contrast, the “L” shape of the high elbow which is usually somewhat perpendicular to the axis of motion, and the EVF move, is specifically meant to create as much area as possible to grab and anchor as much water as possible. It’s not a natural motion by any means - the body always seeks to reduce it’s effort, and by using the EVF, you’re maximizing the resistance, which is hard and fatiguing for newb swimmers who have never done it.

This is a completely different issue than high vs low cadence, which there is definitely debate. However, even in those debates, it’s pretty near universally agreed upon that for the crawl stroke, you need an EVF and absolutely have to avoid doing a straight drop of the elbow to displace as much water as possible. Not sure where you’re coming up with your conclusion #1 which alleges that the high elbow displaces less water.

6

This video might help. I thought he did a good job explaining the difference in the pull.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAMq9rSzyU&feature=related

7

one thing that seems to be sure (and both hi & low cadence people agree upon) is that the amount of water you displace is important.
but if one compares high-elbow to completely dropped-elbow:

  1. high elbow stroke displaces less water, about 1/2 of what you can displace with dropped elbow (because the upper arm does not almost displace water in high-elbow)

The problem with this analysis is that the dropped elbow displaces more water in the vertical direction (towards the bottom of the pool). The high-elbow (EVF) displaces more water in the horizontal direction (towards your feet). You want more horizontal and less vertical. EVF for the win.

That being said, EVF is damn hard to achieve. I work on it constantly and am nowhere near where I want it to be.

8

in a different thread i asked about high cadence vs. low cadence in swimming and got conflicting opinions.
there was no consensus
now i want to know: is the “high elbow” technique definitely the right/better technique that everyone should strive to achieve?
or is it conditional (pool vs open water, IM’s vs. just swim, etc’)?

one thing that seems to be sure (and both hi & low cadence people agree upon) is that the amount of water you displace is important.
but if one compares high-elbow to completely dropped-elbow:
1) high elbow stroke displaces less water, about 1/2 of what you can displace with dropped elbow (because the upper arm does not almost displace water in high-elbow) **
2) a hi-elbow stroke might take less time **but i doubt it takes less than 1/2 the time a dropped-elbow stroke takes.

therefore if we consider the 2 techniques just from the point of view of amount of water displaced and the time it takes per stroke
the hi-elbow stroke technique seems inferior.

still i think of the two, high-elbow is better because of the reduced drag and the better usage of the muscles one can engage for the stroke
making the high-elbow stroke more efficient (requiring less effort for a given displacement of water in a given amount of time)

so… does anyone think that dropped-elbow is better than high elbow?

Myself, and most everyone else would completely disagree with #1, and instead say that “low-elbow” stroke displaced not 1/2 but** 2x** the amount of water of a low elbow, and also takes **longer **to pull through the water as a result.

I think you’ve got your facts backwards.

9

Of a 4000 yard set, go do 3000 yards at drop dead pace with little to no rest with a “dropped elbow”. When your shoulders and bi-cep feel like they are about to rip off your body, try the high elbow and see how much easier it is to swim the next 1000 yards and still hold pace.

Yes, at around 5 or 6 o’clock position, a dropped elbow might displace more water for about 30-45 degrees worth of the stroke (about 7 o’clock position). All other positions in the water are not directly moving the swimmer forward, more like up.

The high elbow allows for the stroke to maximize the 180 degrees of possible swim area per arm.

I have spent a good deal of time with very small paddles held on by only my middle finger (no wrist straps) to get the feel for high elbow and how it helps. Of a 4000+ master group set, by 2000 yards my shoulders, back, and lats start to let me know my ineffeciencies in my stroke as muscles start to ache. I can then “fix” my stroke based on what makes my body more comfortable in the water while still holding pace. It always results in earlier catch with high elbow, pulling down the mid-line of the body and having a strong full finish. If I remember to point my toes, well then that’s a bonus.

10

one thing that seems to be sure (and both hi & low cadence people agree upon) is that the amount of water you displace is important.
but if one compares high-elbow to completely dropped-elbow:

  1. high elbow stroke displaces less water, about 1/2 of what you can displace with dropped elbow (because the upper arm does not almost displace water in high-elbow)
  2. a hi-elbow stroke might take less time but i doubt it takes less than 1/2 the time a dropped-elbow stroke takes.

Point one is that displaced water is important, but not the way you think it is. This is a pedantic point, but displaced water is wasted energy. In the same way that to get from a to b in a car, it is more efficient to drive over a road than to spin your wheels in gravel the whole time and shooting gravel out towards the back of your car. Both will get you there, no spinning is more efficient. Water displaced backwards after you swim by is a mark of inefficiency. If you could grab onto something solid underwater, it would be much more efficient.

Now, onto your point, in what I consider a high elbow stroke at the very beginning, yes your humerus is not involved in the pull in the relevant direction, but as the pull progresses, it is more and more involved so that at mid pull the entire arm is oriented so that long surfaces are presented in a position t right angles to the way you are pulling on the water.

In a dropped elbow stroke, ad mid pull, your upper arm is at right angles to the flow, but your forearm is not, it is trailing the upper arm an elbow, by definition it is trailing, this is what makes it a dropped elbow. In this case, at and around mid pull the surface area that is at right angles to the pull direction is much greater with a high elbow. And in the early parts of the stroke the high elbow is at worst, the same as a dropped elbow.

A complete dropped elbow stroke though

11

High elbow recovery is far from universal, and striving to achieve it is a waste of time.

If you don’t get your elbow up will the tendency be to swing the arm around ?
If so, doesn’t this just lead to crossing over or is it a case of stopping the swing in time ?

12

If you don’t get your elbow up will the tendency be to swing the arm around ?
If so, doesn’t this just lead to crossing over or is it a case of stopping the swing in time ?

Some have posited that this is the case, but it doesn’t actually work this way. Some peoples arms bend during recovery, others do not. If the kick timing is solid, there is no adverse effect of this. Some have posited that there may in fact be a benefit to the straight arm recovery … but first one needs to get their timing (but you know that!).

Regards,
r.b.

13

Isn’t there another forum for you now? ;>)

Maybe those arms will swing around, or maybe they will do something else. I don’t mean you shouldn’t have a high elbow recovery. What I mean is there are other things to focus on, and when those other things fall into place, your arms will have the proper recovery motion. It’s what they do underwater that counts, while people place too much emphasis on what they do during recovery, thinking that it has a huge effect on the pull. It doesn’t.

14

Point one is that displaced water is important, but not the way you think it is. This is a pedantic point, but displaced water is wasted energy. In the same way that to get from a to b in a car, it is more efficient to drive over a road than to spin your wheels in gravel the whole time and shooting gravel out towards the back of your car. Both will get you there, no spinning is more efficient. Water displaced backwards after you swim by is a mark of inefficiency. If you could grab onto something solid underwater, it would be much more efficient.

This is a better description of what is happening. I keep looking for those handholds in the water to grab and pull myself forward. This is a good mental picture of what you should be striving towards. Also, “see” the handholds as being shallow, rather than deep, to encourage a high elbow.

The additional benefit of the high elbow is reduced frontal drag as Gary Hall explains in his video on the underwater pull (linked a few posts prior).

15

Isn’t there another forum for you now? ;>)

Yep. The 12 week program is my new year’s resolution. Maybe I should start earlier.

Robert’s comment on bend during the recovery makes sense. I cross over bad and was told on multiple occasions that a high elbow is the only solution to the problem.

Also, Mr Swim Smooth does it, so if he does it…

16

This is a great question and something I had thought of in the past. Basically comparing swimming cadence to higher cadence in cycling is an invalid comparison. In cycling the cadence high or low does not change the efficiency of getting work done. In swimming the dropped elbow effects the efficiency of swimming. So not an apple to apples comparison.

As was mentioned. A valid comparison would be if at a high cadence on the bike your wheel slipped.

I am not a fish but I do believe that dropped elbow also causes more feet dragging. The pushing up on your front end in the stroke causes a teeter tooter effect on the feet.

17

Of a 4000 yard set, go do 3000 yards at drop dead pace with little to no rest with a “dropped elbow”. When your shoulders and bi-cep feel like they are about to rip off your body, try the high elbow and see how much easier it is to swim the next 1000 yards and still hold pace…

A lightbulb just went off. Now I know what I’m doing (or not doing) because this describes how I feel after a 2000 yrad set. Looks like I need to get to the pool and work on the high elbow.

Nice video post earlier also.

18

I had an “ah-ha” moment with this in the pool just yesterday.

Long story short: I was hit by a pickup truck and lost much flexibility in the neck and shoulders (broken neck) for a bit. As a result, when I started swimming again I had a major cross-over problem and no ability to hold a high elbow. That, combined with a loss of feeling in my lower legs, meant I couldn’t really feel in the water for a good 6 months and lost the ability to determine what my body was doing in the water.

Forward to day, post accident and much recovery: my master’s coach had me do a pull / swim repeat set. I’d pull for three laps (lengths? – whatever) with just two fingers - first and index and the remainder of the hand closed-fist (not a fist-drill, but almost). When doing the next three laps of swimming, I was finally able to keep my elbows out aside of me rather than low, and my hands felt like they had paddles on them. What a feeling!

The difference between a high-elbow and lowered elbow give me a better feel in the catch with much lower stress in the neck and across the shoulder blades where I am still working through some of the scar tissue and flexibility.

19

Long story short: I was hit by a pickup truck and lost much flexibility in the neck and shoulders (broken neck) for a bit. As a result, when I started swimming again I had a major cross-over problem and no ability to hold a high elbow.

Yeah, this is a crappy way to have to find revelation, but I guess as we get older we take it where we can get it?!? First off, glad that you are recovering.

Your post brings me to a point that I have been exploring a ton in my coaching and my own swimming. It is further echoed by the reviewer in their comment on the first swimmer in this article(posted by FLAJill on ST): http://www.usaswimming.org/ViewNewsArticle.aspx?TabId=0&itemid=4040&mid=8712

That is, the relationship between the neck and the ability to propel effectively. We have long known the role that the alignment of the head can play in the ability to catch and propel (think about the key points for SoL), and as the neck has trauma, it is not uncommon for the requirement of head alignment to be even more severe. If you were to swim a 25 with no breaths, I bet your crossover would be gone and your elbow/forearm position totally dialed (or as least as dialed as your body will allow).

Now, as to the most recent breakthrough that you had, it is reminding me of something that I have been exploring in my own swimming of late, and let me tell you, my body - at least my right side - is about as jacked up as they come. In conversations with KevininMD Iwas turned on to the “analyses lens” of looking at things in terms of internal rotation about the humerus, rather than simply EVF. What does this “internal rotation” give us? For one thing, it gives us a pink finger that is either even with the thumb, or slightly trailing the thumb, in terms of its orientation as a paddle that pushes backwards. Why is this important? Well, I don’t know the specific fluid mechanics of it, but my own sensation is that the hand propels much more effectively when it is pushing back flat, OR when it has A TRAILING NOT LEADING PINKY.

In all, I am musing with the idea that EVF might be more an effect than cause. Trailing pinky might be most of the advantage. Just maybe that is. It would explain some of what we see in terms of only moderately high elbow in elite swimmers, or only 1 arm with high elbow (Tom Dolan). And I think that we can safely say, don’t do a low elbow, because that will almost guarantee a leading pinky.

Regards,
r.b.

20

If you swim with a high elbow, you should be able to grab the same amount or more water than a straight arm (dropped elbow), but the biggest two differences are the muscles that are used and the direction you are pushing the water.

  1. With a straight arm, you are using more of your shoulder muscles to push the water. In a high elbow stroke, you use you lats, which are a much bigger muscle group and fatigues less. Also due to the end of your arm being closer to your body, less leverage is needed to pull your hand through the water. Same thing applies to holding a weight close to your body. I bet you hold 100 lbs if your arm was bent, but straighten your arm out and hold it paralel to the ground and notice how much harder it is, if you can hold that much weight to begin with.

  2. The high elbow allows you to push the water in a slightly more “backwards” direction. With a low elbow or straight arm, you arm goes down and backwards and you go through the stroke, pushing up and forward. With a high elbow, you can push almost all the water backwards, providing a more forward motion and less up and out of the water.