Analyzing swimming - high elbow

Triathlon Forum
21

Long story short: I was hit by a pickup truck and lost much flexibility in the neck and shoulders (broken neck) for a bit. As a result, when I started swimming again I had a major cross-over problem and no ability to hold a high elbow.

Yeah, this is a crappy way to have to find revelation, but I guess as we get older we take it where we can get it?!? First off, glad that you are recovering.

Your post brings me to a point that I have been exploring a ton in my coaching and my own swimming. It is further echoed by the reviewer in their comment on the first swimmer in this article(posted by FLAJill on ST): http://www.usaswimming.org/...id=4040&mid=8712

That is, the relationship between the neck and the ability to propel effectively. We have long known the role that the alignment of the head can play in the ability to catch and propel (think about the key points for SoL), and as the neck has trauma, it is not uncommon for the requirement of head alignment to be even more severe. If you were to swim a 25 with no breaths, I bet your crossover would be gone and your elbow/forearm position totally dialed (or as least as dialed as your body will allow).

Now, as to the most recent breakthrough that you had, it is reminding me of something that I have been exploring in my own swimming of late, and let me tell you, my body - at least my right side - is about as jacked up as they come. In conversations with KevininMD Iwas turned on to the “analyses lens” of looking at things in terms of internal rotation about the humerus, rather than simply EVF. What does this “internal rotation” give us? For one thing, it gives us a pink finger that is either even with the thumb, or slightly trailing the thumb, in terms of its orientation as a paddle that pushes backwards. Why is this important? Well, I don’t know the specific fluid mechanics of it, but my own sensation is that the hand propels much more effectively when it is pushing back flat, OR when it has A TRAILING NOT LEADING PINKY.

In all, I am musing with the idea that EVF might be more an effect than cause. Trailing pinky might be most of the advantage. Just maybe that is. It would explain some of what we see in terms of only moderately high elbow in elite swimmers, or only 1 arm with high elbow (Tom Dolan). And I think that we can safely say, don’t do a low elbow, because that will almost guarantee a leading pinky.

Regards,
r.b.

I’ll pay attention to the finger positions when back in the pool. Just mimicing the motion at my desk now, however, feels like I’m pushing a high elbow when thumb-leading, and sweeping across my body when pinky-leading.

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Any good drills specifically for emphasizing high elbow? The video linked earlier was great and clearly shows yet another area I need to improve.

23

I am coming to believe you are some sort of troll. You seem to want to illicit responses, make people think…but you refuse to answer basic questions. for example, where is that hill? …Where is that Ironman? Now this thread.

24

Any good drills specifically for emphasizing high elbow? The video linked earlier was great and clearly shows yet another area I need to improve.

Try doing it on dryland first with a elastic resistance band (use a low resistance band) wedged in a door (most com ewith door wedge attachments.) If you do this for 30 minutes, you’ll pretty much be doing nothing but EVF if done correctly (look up a video on youtube by Coach Troy.) It’s very easy to do onland with the tubes, but more challenging in the water. I find that with the dryland sensation drilled in, you really start picking it up when you jump back in the pool the next day since your arm is used to pulling and feeling the resisatance in that way.

25

Just mimicing the motion at my desk now, however, feels like I’m pushing a high elbow when thumb-leading, and sweeping across my body when pinky-leading.

Exactly. Interested to hear your experience.

r.b.

26

Any good drills specifically for emphasizing high elbow? The video linked earlier was great and clearly shows yet another area I need to improve.

Try doing it on dryland first with a elastic resistance band (use a low resistance band) wedged in a door (most com ewith door wedge attachments.) If you do this for 30 minutes, you’ll pretty much be doing nothing but EVF if done correctly (look up a video on youtube by Coach Troy.) It’s very easy to do onland with the tubes, but more challenging in the water. I find that with the dryland sensation drilled in, you really start picking it up when you jump back in the pool the next day since your arm is used to pulling and feeling the resisatance in that way.

Thank you! That is something I can work on immediately. I have bands - just haven’t figured out a good way to use them for swimming.

27

Well, I don’t know the specific fluid mechanics of it, but my own sensation is that the hand propels much more effectively when it is pushing back flat, OR when it has A TRAILING NOT LEADING PINKY.

Ok, I am soooo sore right now. I just finished swimming and my shoulders feel like they are stuck at the high point of a shrug. Actually a band across my back f/ shoulder to shoulder is totally wasted.

I normally swim with my pinky leading, as it turns out. As a result of this thread I switched today, concentrating on leading with the thumb and feeling the pressure near its base. It was like switching from the small to high ring on a bike. I guess I’ve been essentially slicing the water with my hands. It felt really good at first, 6100y later not so much …

Thanks.

28

Point one is that displaced water is important, but not the way you think it is. This is a pedantic point, but displaced water is wasted energy. In the same way that to get from a to b in a car, it is more efficient to drive over a road than to spin your wheels in gravel the whole time and shooting gravel out towards the back of your car. Both will get you there, no spinning is more efficient. Water displaced backwards after you swim by is a mark of inefficiency. If you could grab onto something solid underwater, it would be much more efficient.

hey, i agree with this but have some unresolved thoughts about it…

  1. how do you know when you are applying too much force that “your wheels are spinning and shooting gravel”, and when you are not applying enough force? in other words you want to give your car as much gas as possible but not too much that it starts spinning in place. in the water, what do you feel when you “start spinning”?
  2. the force applied to the water to advance w/o “spinning the wheels” is relatively constant. what makes a pro go faster than an amateur, assuming they can both push at that force?
    is it just body position?
29

If you swim with a high elbow, you should be able to grab the same amount or more water than a straight arm (dropped elbow), but the biggest two differences are the muscles that are used and the direction you are pushing the water.

  1. With a straight arm, you are using more of your shoulder muscles to push the water. In a high elbow stroke, you use you lats, which are a much bigger muscle group and fatigues less. Also due to the end of your arm being closer to your body, less leverage is needed to pull your hand through the water. Same thing applies to holding a weight close to your body. I bet you hold 100 lbs if your arm was bent, but straighten your arm out and hold it paralel to the ground and notice how much harder it is, if you can hold that much weight to begin with.

  2. The high elbow allows you to push the water in a slightly more “backwards” direction. With a low elbow or straight arm, you arm goes down and backwards and you go through the stroke, pushing up and forward. With a high elbow, you can push almost all the water backwards, providing a more forward motion and less up and out of the water.

this is a great explanation. thanks