If you’re talking about the race itself I agree. If you’re talking about what people do in their 20 mile training runs I disagree.
It depends on where you carry weight. If I gain it’s normally in the legs which makes a huge difference in turnover. If you carry it on your waist or chest, the effect is less. Same as saving weight in rotating wheels on the bike compared to say a lightweight seatpost.
“If you can’t get to Mile 20 in a marathon on pace, then you aren’t going to qualify for Boston. Those who would tell you to run your 20 milers at 30 seconds slower than BQ pace are talking out of their asses.”
In my training 20 milers I never ran anywhere close to my BQ pace - NEVER! Obviously what you did worked well for you, but other ways work well for different people. Anyone who thinks there is only one method/plan for marathon training is talking out their ass.
I like the ‘fast-finish long run’ - say, 20 miles where the last 5 or so are at marathon pace.
agree that long runs at race pace will wear you down. but mixing in a few fast finish long runs should help. (I only got one in training for my last race; wanted to get more in but ran out of time).
They should all be a ways out from the race. This is, as far as I know, a McMillan thing, and he goes into them quite a bit on his site.
I haven’t read all the posts so sorry if this has already been said…
I think it is possible to run a 3:20 with your background and time left to train. I qualified for Boston last October, with a 3:09, which was my first marathon since 2005 and 4th full marathon overall (outside of IMLP in 2007). My previous 2 marathons (Detroit and NYC) were 3:50 and 3:16, respectively, and I need a 3:10 to qualify (7:15 avg). This year I had a spring build for HIM in June, and then my wife and I had a baby on the way, so I focused purely on running, with once a week bike rides from July until the race. (about 20 weeks) I was at 45-50 mpw from August through end of September, when my taper started. I basically ran 5 days a week (at this point we had a newborn so time was at a premium). I ran 3x at 5-8 miles of hills at 7:15 - 7:30s, 1 mid-week tempo run of 11 miles (with 10 at 6:50 - 7:00), and then a long runs with my last 3 20 milers at 7:30: 7:25 and 7:20 avg pace. For me the key was the mid-week tempo run, it was not comfortable, but when I ran my long runs, the pace felt relatively easy. My marathon day went perfect, which was based around BQ, not necessarily the fastest time possible for me. Plan was to even split, but I got held up the first half for a 1:36, with a second half of 1:33. Tired at the end, but plenty of gas still in the tank. Personally, I do not think just adding more miles will get you faster, but add the right type of workouts for your limiters. For me, I had endurance, I needed speed, so the mid-week tempo run was key. I had more miles for IMLP, but ran slower; it was a different type of training. Basically identify your main limiters, and train them, and develop a good race strategy to stick with. It seems you need to work on your endurance, based on your time difference between a 10k,half and full. I haven’t looked and many predictor calculators, but double your half-time and add 10 minutes has been pretty accurate for me. Good luck.
Thanks for your suggestions.
I’m in a similar boat - as we have newborn twins. Not as much time to workout - otherwise I’d probably be training for another IM. Although later in the summer I plan on doing a couple 1/2 IM’s.
Currently I’m running 5 times per week - 4 8-milers and one long run. I’m also considering replacing my 3 week speed phase with more endurance - since this is my weakness. As a few others have said (and someone’s signature line), speed is the frosting and I don’t have my cake yet.
I am curious as to what caused you to go from a 10k at 6:35 pace to having a difficult time at 7:38 pace for two miles in less than a year. The 10k time is pretty respectable and would to me indicate that a 3:20 marathon is doable.
My knowledge is purely anecdotal though, as I have never competed in a 10k much less a marathon. A couple of my friends can’t run 41 minute 10k yet they usually run 3:20s in the marathon.
I think its a combination of things.
First is that I basically took September, October and November completely off - no workouts and just one race. After my IM in early September, I needed a break. So I’ve only been training for about 1 1/2 months since the layoff.
Another thing is that I’ve never been much of a “workout performer”. I’ve always tended to race much faster than my workouts would indicate. Unfortunately, this doesn’t work too well for the longer distance events, like the marathon.
But most importantly, I just haven’t put in the miles to be prepared to race a marathon.
10km time X 4.66 = Marathon
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Dear Too Optimistic,
I say freaking go for it!! You have nothing to lose if you are confident in your training, then no worries 3; 20 it is……
I ask you, do you have the natural ability to obtain this goal? You can run 1000 miles a week if you do not have the natural ability, then manup and understand what you are capable of.
I consider myself a fast age grouper, but I may never make it Hawaii, may never run a
3; 30 marathon and I get that!!
What and when race are you running?
Ok, I ask Slow Twitch pros’ the top dogs, of Slow Twitch out there what is a respectable marathon time?
I consider anything under 3:30 is an outstanding performance!
Thoughts???
Trumpman - Yes, I believe I’m capable of 3:20 and faster.
Its just a question of whether I do it in May or later.
I’ll be running the La Crosse (WI) Fitness Festival marathon on May 3rd.
I’m not a Slowtwitch pro, so take this for what its worth. I consider anything under 3 hours an outstanding performance.
I think at 3:20 is doable if you can stay healthy, do some speed work, and get in long long runs. Maybe even just have a “a great day”. Some of it could be out of your control. Conditions. This year in Dallas the winds were 30+ mph for the marathon and that wore many people down. ALL marathon times were down. Not saying that’s an excuse, but just having the perfect day may be the thing that gets you there at 3:20.
My first marathon was 4:20 (didn’t know what I was doing, but did put in the mileage). Wrong shoes, no nutrition etc…
My Second marathon was two years later and I PR’d with a 3:35. Two months after that, I did a 1/2 in 1:36 (but didn’t really run much after the marathon). At this point I had a very good base, finishing my first Ironman earlier in the year (marathon split of 4:38).
For the 3:35 marathon, had I put in longer runs each week and some speedwork (I usually trained at 9-10 mins a mile) I feel I could have hit 3:20 (my BQ qualifier). My goal was to break 3:50, but then the day seemed to click. I met somebody at mile 5 that was on pace for a 3:20 and stayed with them till mile 20, I didn’t blow up, I just slowed cause my mileage was not consistently long when I trained- I got tired. Oh, and ALL of my running was on a treadmill. I ALWAYS run faster outside after running on a treadmill.
best of luck.
Rich
From 4:20 to 3:35? Wow, that is a huge improvement! Very impressive.
Maybe I should do more treadmill workouts.
Thanks Rich.
I’m prone to strains and the pounding on the ashpalt. Running treadmill ensured I didnt twist an ankle in a pothole, didn’t miss a workout due to weather and didn’t have to worry about darkness etc…
When I hit the asphalt for racing, I do feel a slight adjustment the first 4-5 miles. Longest, 22 miler on a treadmill. It works for me.
Biggest adjustment I made, I worked on recovery. Whenever I finished a long run I drank two boost drinks-high protein (it’s like ensure) and a coca-cola. I did this immediately. My recovery improved by about 60% and I didn’t have too much soreness after the long runs.
Longest, 22 miler on a treadmill. It works for me.
To me, this sounds like absolute torture. Like you said - it works for you.
Sure you can do it. I did. In November 2006 I ran a 4:10 marathon. This was my 2nd marathon. My first was a 4:50 in 2003. In November 2007 I ran a 3:19 and qualified for Boston. I followed the Hal Higdon Advanced-I ,18 week program. Did not go to Boston in 2008 because I did Orlando 70.3. Will be going to Boston this year. Have not run a marathon since that 2007 race but I did run a 1:29 1/2 marathon in November. It seems the more I run, the faster I get.
Believe in your training plan. Do all that it calls for. Then go for it.
Good luck.
MW
That is MONSTER improvement.
Keep up the good work.
I wandered back into this thread and now I just have to ask Macho Grande - just to be clear, what exactly are you saying?
I ask because I think while there is an increasing tendency in training nowadays towards not having Long Slow Days just be 20 miles of SLOW mind-numbing miles (i.e. by adding progression runs, inserting Marathon Pace in the middle, etc.), I don’t think I’ve come across many suggesting you would run 20 miles at Marathon Pace during your training.
Just curious - and to be clear, not trying to be dismissive - just trying to make sure I understand you, since your methods obviously saw impressive improvement over a short period of time…
“I’m in a similar boat - as we have newborn twins.”
Ha - I must have replied to your post because I recognized the subtle smell of fear that surrounds a father with newborn twins. Being a father of 3 1/2 year old twins myself. It will get easier my friend, just not quite as quickly as people tell you it will get easier. 
Ok, so her my philosophy, which might or might not be totally nuts and might or might not work for others.
FOR ME, in attempting to qualify for Boston, I had to know that I could get to Mile 20 of a marathon. After that it was 6.2 miles and anyone can HTFU for that distance.
Simply put, you have to know you can run your pace and you cannot expect to pull it out of your ass on race day. It simply doesn’t happen.
99.5% of people slow down over the last 6.2 miles as opposed to speeding up if they ran slow. So, my thought was, get to Mile 20 on pace and let it hang out from there.
My thinking on this was further strengthened when Ryan Hall mentioned in Runners World that his long runs (20-23 miles) are no slower than 5 seconds of marathon pace.
I was rather serious about trying to qualify at Philly and 75% of my miles each week were at or above race pace. Would this work for everyone or anyone? I don’t know, but it worked for me.
The one thing I cannot and would not ever endorse is “banking time” by running faster over the front half of the marathon. I have seen hundreds of people’s marathon dreams destroyed by this thought pattern. But, to each their own, I suppose .
BOb
"My thinking on this was further strengthened when Ryan Hall mentioned in Runners World that his long runs (20-23 miles) are no slower than 5 seconds of marathon pace.
I was rather serious about trying to qualify at Philly and 75% of my miles each week were at or above race pace. Would this work for everyone or anyone? I don’t know, but it worked for me."
Just a guess, but I’m assuming Ryan Hall does substantially more overall volume, so his race pace runs may be less than 20% of the total.
I understand your need to have confidence you could carry the pace for 20 miles. I also agree with the poster who said most marathon plans do not have that kind of run in the schedule. I never ran anywhere close to race pace in any training runs, even for a mile. I did race very often though, and those paces were faster than the GMP.
This thread demonstrates that there are many different methods of having a good marathon.