I couldn’t agree with this more. Shit can go sideways on race day for any number of reasons. Or like you said somebody else faster showed up and beat you.

of course I’m certain my perspective is different than a FOPer as my goals are usually focused on continuing to improve and staying health doing it. But I’ve had local races where I can often win my age group unless this one guy shows up who is a good bit faster than me. And I’ve definitely had races where I completely fell apart race day due to nutrition or life stress leading up to the race. None of that was my coach’s fault.

/endthread

I'd be curious what your bitterness came from. It sounds like you got burned. And that's unfortunate, and I would say a great coach doesn't string you along because that thought of "being strung along" doesn't even cross the athlete's mind. It's all about expectations/goals/communication with this type of relationship, most especially if you are an online relationship. To me "it just takes" time is all about becoming super consistent with training. And that means accepting the ups and downs of training, and sometimes just going into "auto pilot" with training. Show up every day, week in and week out on top of a good specific plan, and I tell people your going to pretty much hit whatever goal you want. Now of course as I said, I am weery of an athlete saying "I have to KQ this year or else", because things all the time come up in training and/or racing that may limit that. And not that it's about being afraid of the expectations, but it's about setting the correct mindset. And when the correct mindset is set, the actual end result becomes less of a priority and more about the process (there's someone always faster than you out there).....because then if you nail the process, you suddenly will get the results you want.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I don't think you're making much sense.
Let me qualify my response with the fact that I've never used a coach, but I don't think that matters much for what I'm saying:

Surely if you get a coach, it's because you want guidance, support and /or motivation in your training. Maybe you have a particular goal, maybe you just want to continue improving. Whichever the case may be, surely retaining a coach is something you will re-evaluate regularly, especially if things are not going as you'd want them. How does a coach telling you things take time, which we all know and you accept, constitute a shady business practice?

1. Are you saying you suspect they intentionally restrict your progress to make you think you need them? Surely you'd want them more when progress is demonstrated!
2. Are you saying you will stay with them if they tell you it takes time but not if they tell you it doesn't, regardless of knowing the truth and being able to evaluate your own progress? This is silliness since you've already accepted that "all this takes time".

Can you better explain your actual complaint?
It seems you are complaining about your own suspicion rather than any actual bad practices. But that seems unlikely!

.
Just a general reply to the thread.

I don't think some of you are getting where the OP is coming from.I believe he is suggesting that "some" coaches convince people that they need multi year connections with a coach to achieve a goal and that "some" coaches convince their athletes that this sport of our is way more complicated than it is.

If you are a reasonably intelligent person with above average motivation then surely you should be able to learn from a coach over a period of much less than a year.If you are motivated to do some study and apply that to what you have already learned then for many the need for a coach to "teach" you how to train vanishes .Now if you are a person who needs to be held accountable to a coach for motivation then stay with that person by all means and work with them but you have to work out if that is really necessary.

I have seen coaches almost take over athletes lives during long training/coaching partnerships and have wondered the same thing the OP was wondering.Are they actually giving me the best progression possible that required a two year financial commitment or are they just stretching out that partnership to convinve me I need to keep paying for something I may very well be able to do myself?

In my limited experience I have seen a lot of bogus coach comments all over. It really doesn't take anything to call yourself a coach. However, there are also some really really good coaches. I was not very knowledgeable in endurance training. I've done some reading since, but my coach has had a big picture plan that has been pretty much spot on since we started working together almost 2 years ago. I am pretty sure I would've improved no matter what I did. Although, I feel confident I've improved more than I would've if I did it solo. The most important aspect is not just creating workout's in TP but it's also communication. If your coach is just writing a plan and not asking why your ride/run didn't have pace/power that correlated to HR then what's the point. Just buy a cookie cutter plan or make your own. A good coach excels in communication.

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https://www.strava.com/athletes/23685202

Nah, we get where he's coming from. I think that's kinda missing the point of a good coaching arrangement though.

IMO, what constitutes a good coaching arrangement can vary substantially, depending on what the athlete wants to achieve and where they are in their progression & experience. For the most part, the ST crowd isn't looking for coaches who provide motivation. We tend to be motivated enough on our own. Nor are we really looking for "how to train", maybe some small nuances here and there, or figuring out periodization and stuff like that, but for the most part we already know how to train, broadly speaking anyway.

For THIS audience, those of us who are coached are looking for other things from our coaches, even if it's just taking some mental strain of planning out a season and workouts off our own shoulders, or having an outside perspective on what seems to be working and what isn't, or even just validation of good ideas and a slap upside the head when we have a stupid idea.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

This. I would rather pay for the wealth of knowledge and experience that my coach has than get it on my own. I did a lot of research on different coaches and found one whose philosophy I agreed with and then just let him do his work. It has worked out better than expected.

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.

https://www.bicycling.com/...secure-olympic-slot/

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

I’m where you were before you got your coach

How did you research the various coaches?

Lots of atheletes overestimate themselves. In that case a good coach should say 'it will never happen' ;-)
Sam

If interested in a better outcome, think differently of the plan approach. Plans are a process with no ending timeline of multiple projects along the way.

In execution of business plans with projects assigned to good people (workers and internal leaders or expert consultants who serve as default leaders) the team at its best, will achieve only a combination of any 2 out of 3 objectives: #1 - Finish on-time, #2 - At budget, or #3 - With proper specifications. Red flags may be: consultants who like to string things along, internal leaders who like to blame others for failings, and good employees assigned to ill-fitting positions that don't bring out the best of their talent. Great teams will achieve all three if focused, trained, talented, and held accountable.

Think of triathlons as a means to compete at optimal levels in a set of races (projects). With good resources, the best will achieve only a combination of 2 out of 3 objectives: #1 - time goals, #2 - within coaching/eqp/race budgets, #3 - Injury free.
Red flags may be coaches who like to string things along or blame others for failings, and good triathletes thinking of unattainable times & timelines with under-developed or miss-directed talent, or over-stressed physical malfunctions.

Great triathletes with great coaches (not judging on elite or pro classifications), will achieve their collective objectives if focused, trained, talented, and held accountable.

https://www.palmtreesahead.com/tactics2faster-new
https://www.palmtreesahead.com/feed

I get that without the full understanding of what transpired and only having my half assed write-up here, you would assume that the coach was right. That is simply not the case. The coach was not on a "your first year is going to suck but year 2 will be awesome plan". His plan promised I would be stronger and fitter year 1. There was a mutual understanding that he would train me better than I trained myself and that year 1 I would see improvement.

That was simply not the case. Year 1 was a complete waste of time and I was massively undertrained versus years prior. I voiced my concerns that my bike and run splits were slow and that I was spending too much time in the pool (FYI - I'm a 54min swimmer already) months in advance of my races but he said "you're on track, your fitness will show itself on race day". It did not, I was clearly not as strong as previous years.

When he said that the next year would be the same process and that I'd see improvement, I just laughed. Of course there would be improvement, I sucked all year, how could I not improve? So I quit. The next year, I went back to what I had been doing and things started to actually progress back to normal.

I'm not naive, it's very possible that 12 months of being undertrained may have given my body the ability to take on load the following year and that's why I finally improved beyond the previous years but I'm also very aware that I didn't need 12 months to let my body rest. And that is why I feel so strongly about my coach and MY n=1 experience being a crock of shit.

Curious how you went about finding and selecting the coach? How much background and athlete results did you get? Local or online?

Sucks it went down that way.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You know I was just joking with you, right? What it comes down to is this: there are good coaches, there are bad coaches, and just because a coach is a good coach doesn't mean that he or she is a good coach FOR YOU. If you don't have confidence in the coach, then it's time to move on.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

My coach sucks, I wouldn't recommend him at all. Didn't even give me a trucker hat. Price is good though....

(seriously though, I have several coaches through my swim club, but they are just responsible for writing individual workouts for the group, to a lesser extent they'll help with the pre-meet prep phases but generally I'm responsible for planning out my own season. )

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I went with an online coach that was supposed to be very hands-on with TONS of proven experience. Hindsight being 20/20, he wasn't involved enough day-to-day.

Mind you, this was years ago... if I was in the same position looking for a coach today, I would never even consider him. I would chose someone local.

Reading this thread is having me reflect on my own experiences.
At the moment I feel like I need to end things with my coach at the end of the season in 4 weeks.I'm still unsure if its my arragance thinking I know better. I've been with my coach since june 2018. The end of last season I saw incredible gains going from uncoached and always going hard, to a structured plan really showed progress. This year has been a little rocky though. I got a run injury, technically fault doesn't fall completely on them but that hit my confidence a bit. My times have improved across the board but seems to have hit a wall.
Some things that I notice are that, yes my coach also says it "takes time" I get that, but they also don't provide a really good reason for the types of training I do.
ALL runs are pace/distance based and never more than 3x a week. The long run is never planned to be slower than HM pace + 30s per mile. That doesn't feel right to me, and the run is where I really need to improve to be competitive in the overall standings.
The bike workouts come straight from the zwift catalogue, they pick and choose the workouts from multiple zwift plans for me to do that week, and sometimes even a direct copy of the bike workouts week by week. Why would I pay someone to have me complete a premade zwift plan?
Now onto the swim, they do masters classes and I've seen the greatest improvement here. But now I am at the point where I'm the fastest in the class and we don't really get a lot of poolside coaching anymore in the fast lane because they are busy helping the less experienced folks.

So with all these red flags, I have lost a bit of trust in my coach. But I've definitely gotten faster under them than had I not so that's where I'm still iffy about staying with them or going to someone else.

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IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

similar. i went my first 3 im without coaching, shaving almost an hour off each one. i thought i would get a coach. heard amazing things about a local coaching group so gave it a try. i was very specific, i have a crazy work schedule (not hours, but schedule) where i work late tu/th and early m/w/f so training would have to work around that. i asked before i signed up. they said yes. i paid a bit more money for a higher tiered coach.

tuesday evening workout 3 hours, wednesday morning workout 90 mins.
message on forum, that's the plan. you have to be dedicated to it.

da faaaak?

i get home from work at 8. i walk the dog. then you want me to workout till 11:30, shower, eat, sleep 8 hours then wake up and do a 90 min workout before work at 7am.

there are not enough hours between work end and work start. i clearly specified this. their plan states athletes should bank 8 hours of sleep per night. well, how the f do i do that. whatever, i stuck with it. i adjusted (on my own, since i got no help). did almost all the workouts (minus being sick). ended up with a PR in the wrong direction.

it was a complete waste of money. it was no doubt a copy paste plan.

I am a really poor judge of people as I believe what people say and can't tell when people are full of it until way too late. Therefore interviewing people is useless, I will go with the slickest talker which is exactly what I don't want. I am not a big 'group' person so community/team type coaching scenarios (Endurance Nation) aren't for me. I also knew there were plenty of folks who got their coaching credentials from a weekend course which is something I don't need. I therefore whittled down the coaches by background (education, previous athletes) and spent a lot of time reading what they had written. Articles they posted on their websites and a lot of what they had written on slowtwitch. I found a coach whose philosophy and manner I felt I could work with and would get me results.

We are 2 years into a 3 year goal. I have met or exceeded my intermediate goals in all but one of my races and am ahead of my internal mental timeline.

And most importantly I am not injured.

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.

Lol you sound like my twin

Can’t judge people.

Go with the slick talker

Ok thank you for the path to follow. I’ll start researching

Thank you

Best of luck on your 3 year plan

My wife sends her condolences to your significant other.


Thanks, I hope your coaching experience is a good one!

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.

Never hurts to talk to your coach, remind them. Communication is key.

I researched in a similar fashion. Found someone local (that was not necessarily a requirement) who had educational background, certifications, own successful athletic background, as well lots of successful athletes but also athletes with at many different skill levels. I followed her posts and athletes for a bit before deciding to go with her. She’s helped me improve, stay healthy, and also maintain a good balance between life and training

meanwhile in another. thread we are discussing if a double olympic champ and 2 times. 70.3 wc podium will manage Kona despite now doing triathlon for 20 years....

you are trying to blame coaches for not doing your homework to find the right coach for you. he asked you too give him 2 years and you should have said no ,or get a good reason whats the strategy and why.
I am sure you have a case, but by and large the bigger problem is that most athletes. want to go from 0 to hero to quickly those days. so if there is a good, development plan it is good coaching to plan long term.