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Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’
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I 100% acknowledge & accept all this takes time, BUT I think the gold $$$$ for a coach is stringing out the client under the guise of “It just takes time”.
Call me bitter (in regards to some coaches), but this separates a great coach from a POS.

A great coach doesn’t string you along for a long ride so to speak.

In other words shout out to all the GREAT coaches out there.

Please share your stories or if I’m off base here.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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I don't get it. Can you elaborate on what your "bad experience" entailed?

What exact is "it" that takes time? Getting faster / better / more fit / better race results?
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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Would it help if they said thins like imperceptible gains happen every week that add up to meaningful gains over years?
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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thatzone wrote:
I 100% acknowledge & accept all this takes time, BUT I think the gold $$$$ for a coach is stringing out the client under the guise of “It just takes time”.
Call me bitter (in regards to some coaches), but this separates a great coach from a POS.

A great coach doesn’t string you along for a long ride so to speak.

In other words shout out to all the GREAT coaches out there.

Please share your stories or if I’m off base here.

Sounds like you got burned. Like you said when you opened this thread, it takes time. There is no magic bullet. In fact I'd say the worst coaches out there will tell you that if you do x+y+z you'll automatically improve. The brutal reality is that it takes consistency and often times that's boring.

Personally, if someone said to me, "It just takes time", I'd ask them what that time will give me. I always have an answer when that is brought up. I also don't lock anyone into a contract. People are free to leave whenever. Also, if you know most coaches, there's not very much "Gold $$$$" in this.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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thatzone wrote:
I 100% acknowledge & accept all this takes time, BUT I think the gold $$$$ for a coach is stringing out the client under the guise of “It just takes time”.
Call me bitter (in regards to some coaches), but this separates a great coach from a POS.

A great coach doesn’t string you along for a long ride so to speak.

In other words shout out to all the GREAT coaches out there.

Please share your stories or if I’m off base here.

I'd say the exactly opposite. A bad coach or a fraud is one who says they can work a miracle in a short period of time.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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I agree! I've only had one coach, for one year but that was my exact feeling. I literally just missed out on a Kona slot and figured I could use a coach to get the last few minutes to possibly KQ. Hired a well-known guy and he said "give me two years". Why? I'm already experienced and I've raced well, what are you going to do that would require 2 YEARS!!

And then go figure... had the worst race season ever when I was with him. QUIT... then self-coached got myself to Kona the next year.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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it does take time. The crappy coaches are the ones selling you with big promises of quick improvement.

One of the most fun things for me as a coach is coaching someone to an improvement, say from 13 to 12 hours in an IM in a year and then them quitting because it wasn't fast enough...
Fast forward three years and 5 ironmans and they're still going 12 hours while their friend who started at the same place and stuck with it is going under 10.

The number of people who never get faster in this sport is staggering.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry to hear of your bad experience.

I am currently being coached 1:1 for the first time and have been now for about 4months. What has been eye opening about the experience thus far is that he is making take a far more conservative approach to training overall. From a typical volume and intensity perspective, we are doing more like 50-70% of what I would have done on my own. I was bummed at first thinking he was holding me back, but I trust his judgement and just over 3months I’m, finally made progress. For the first time ever, I’m actually recovering and not injured for a change. While I’m sure things will get harder, the experience has made me realize that one benefit of a coach is in his ability to hold me back when it’s for my own good.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
I agree! I've only had one coach, for one year but that was my exact feeling. I literally just missed out on a Kona slot and figured I could use a coach to get the last few minutes to possibly KQ. Hired a well-known guy and he said "give me two years". Why? I'm already experienced and I've raced well, what are you going to do that would require 2 YEARS!!

And then go figure... had the worst race season ever when I was with him. QUIT... then self-coached got myself to Kona the next year.
So the coach was right. It took you 2 years.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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Are you looking for a definitive end point or specific accomplishment? It really depends on what the athlete's goals and expectations are. Nobody is forced to stay in a coaching relationship if they aren't satisfied.


thatzone wrote:
I 100% acknowledge & accept all this takes time, BUT I think the gold $$$$ for a coach is stringing out the client under the guise of “It just takes time”.
Call me bitter (in regards to some coaches), but this separates a great coach from a POS.

A great coach doesn’t string you along for a long ride so to speak.

In other words shout out to all the GREAT coaches out there.

Please share your stories or if I’m off base here.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I knew someone would say this... NO! He wasted my time, robbed me of $2,000 in coaching fees, $2000 in registration fees and I'd say traveling costs but no, I enjoyed that.

What I did the following year was completely different, pretty much exactly what I did the year before coaching while he would have had me doing the same shit for another 12 months. I asked, that's why I quit.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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I think you’re leaving out some important details about your situation.

There are obviously people, like yourself, having bad experiences with coaches while others have good experiences.

I assume you’re trying a different coach.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
I agree! I've only had one coach, for one year but that was my exact feeling. I literally just missed out on a Kona slot and figured I could use a coach to get the last few minutes to possibly KQ. Hired a well-known guy and he said "give me two years". Why? I'm already experienced and I've raced well, what are you going to do that would require 2 YEARS!!

And then go figure... had the worst race season ever when I was with him. QUIT... then self-coached got myself to Kona the next year.

So the coach was right. It took you 2 years.

lolol

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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thatzone wrote:
I 100% acknowledge & accept all this takes time, BUT I think the gold $$$$ for a coach is stringing out the client under the guise of “It just takes time”.
Call me bitter (in regards to some coaches), but this separates a great coach from a POS.

A great coach doesn’t string you along for a long ride so to speak.

In other words shout out to all the GREAT coaches out there.

Please share your stories or if I’m off base here.

So are you saying that GREAT coaches can immediately make someone get from their current state of fitness right up to their physical and genetic limit without stringing them along? If you're so impatient that you can't see meaningful progress, even if slow, that's on you, not your coach.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
I agree! I've only had one coach, for one year but that was my exact feeling. I literally just missed out on a Kona slot and figured I could use a coach to get the last few minutes to possibly KQ. Hired a well-known guy and he said "give me two years". Why? I'm already experienced and I've raced well, what are you going to do that would require 2 YEARS!!

And then go figure... had the worst race season ever when I was with him. QUIT... then self-coached got myself to Kona the next year.

So the coach was right. It took you 2 years.

sick burn
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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I had a brief stint with a coach who I’m fairly certain was getting me mixed up with another athlete he was coaching. Several times he assigned bike rides that started 40 miles from my house, when there were plenty of routes within 10 miles of similar terrain, to which I had to tell him “no” each time and to change the route. He would also have me do runs at paces that didn’t correspond to the profile we set-up together. I severed ties after six months and have been flying solo since.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [spool] [ In reply to ]
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spool wrote:
I had a brief stint with a coach who I’m fairly certain was getting me mixed up with another athlete he was coaching. Several times he assigned bike rides that started 40 miles from my house, when there were plenty of routes within 10 miles of similar terrain, to which I had to tell him “no” each time and to change the route. He would also have me do runs at paces that didn’t correspond to the profile we set-up together. I severed ties after six months and have been flying solo since.

That's just a shitty coach.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
spool wrote:
I had a brief stint with a coach who I’m fairly certain was getting me mixed up with another athlete he was coaching. Several times he assigned bike rides that started 40 miles from my house, when there were plenty of routes within 10 miles of similar terrain, to which I had to tell him “no” each time and to change the route. He would also have me do runs at paces that didn’t correspond to the profile we set-up together. I severed ties after six months and have been flying solo since.


That's just a shitty coach.


That's likely a coach with far too many athletes who's just "copy/pasting" workouts in.

(yes I agree- shitty coach)

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Sep 18, 19 15:45
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Ex-cyclist wrote:
spool wrote:
I had a brief stint with a coach who I’m fairly certain was getting me mixed up with another athlete he was coaching. Several times he assigned bike rides that started 40 miles from my house, when there were plenty of routes within 10 miles of similar terrain, to which I had to tell him “no” each time and to change the route. He would also have me do runs at paces that didn’t correspond to the profile we set-up together. I severed ties after six months and have been flying solo since.


That's just a shitty coach.


That's likely a coach with far too many athletes who's just "copy/pasting" workouts in.

(yes I agree- shitty coach)

I honestly hear this complaint from other people quite a bit. I'm sure you do as well. This as well as, "I'd leave comments on workouts and never get a response, then get a full week of interval after missing 3 days due to the flu." Job security, I guess.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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I was with my first triathlon coach for almost 2 years. In that time, I dropped my 70.3 PR by over 30 minutes. When I went sub-4 this July, he pretty much told me that I was beyond his level of coaching expertise and to find a new coach. Couldn't have been happier with his coaching and he gained a ton of my respect when he let me go.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I think if I could make a "complaint" about athletes is that they are too damn "race result" focused at times. And I think especially if they don't race enough throughout the year, it puts a ton of pressure on the athlete/coach. And at the end of the day sometimes you just suck on race day. It's like I said that to Jim Vance and Ben Kanute at Nice 70.3. The prep was the best of his life, the training was the best of his life, and yet on race day he just didn't perform....guess what....that shit happens all the time.


And then I kinda feel like athletes then make snap judgement on things because they didn't get the race result that they wanted. That's why I cringe when I hear "will you coach me to KQ".........ummmm that's a completely loaded cirumstance. So my coaching sucks if I dont get you that specific goal? But you are now in better shape, your numbers are better, and you just for whatever reason failed on race day....maybe just maybe you raced a field of people just better than you.

So my suggestions to athletes is as always, the 48 hour rule after a "bad" race. Don't make stupid rash decisions, and dont make stupid rash social media posts. Do a brief check in with the coach and that's it, give it a few days and then really evaluate with a level head from both the athlete + coach. Maybe just maybe every box was checked and you raced the best competition you've ever faced. It's cool to be disappointed in not achieving a goal, but at the end of the day if everything was done correctly, the prep was there, the numbers were there, and you just misfired on race day? Or you missed KQ by 1 spot to someone who is just faster than you? Then you show back up Monday ready to grind again cus then it's just a matter of doing another race and it all coming together for you.


I had an athlete go to DL World's. This was within 1 month of said athlete going on business/travel trip where in that combined 3 week business trip he worked out about ~12 hrs total. So as you can guess that DL world's race didn't go as we wanted too. Beauty of it, is that this is an "experienced" high level racer and so he completely owned it. He didn't have excuses, he got the "ass kicking" he pretty much kinda had to get with those training circumstances.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Sep 18, 19 16:12
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [Conky] [ In reply to ]
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Conky wrote:
I was with my first triathlon coach for almost 2 years. In that time, I dropped my 70.3 PR by over 30 minutes. When I went sub-4 this July, he pretty much told me that I was beyond his level of coaching expertise and to find a new coach. Couldn't have been happier with his coaching and he gained a ton of my respect when he let me go.
Wow. Extremely impressed by that acknowledgement from the coach. Do you think he was right? I'd imagine he learned a good deal from you/coaching you and in my mind that kind of makes him "qualified" to keep working with you.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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We have a couple of local coaches that get very fast results. Unfortunately many of the athletes are injured or will not last more than a few years. Th people here saying you need a long term plan are very correct.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think I could have gotten much faster with a coach that is purely online, especially in the swim (my weakest discipline). Also, I agree that he coached me there and therefore has the pedigree. However, we both agreed that I could benefit from someone with more experience at the pointy end.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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I think this is a great question. I'll share with you my experience. Here's my background, from 2009-2013 I went uncoached, from 2014-mid 2018 I had a coach, and now I'm back to putting together my own plans.

From 2009 to 2013 I would describe myself in the "beginner stage" I didn't quite have enough money for all the gear, but had access to people who were excelling in the sport and I could pick their brains. I probably saw the biggest increase in speed during this time mostly because there was alot of low hanging fruit to be gained. I ended the season in 2013 doing my second full ironman at IMFL and went under 10 hrs. I decided at this point to reach out to find a coach because I felt like that's what I needed to take the next step.

In 2014 I started with a local coach who I had seen coach various athletes in the 2009-2013 time frame and they improved every year. I remember the key line he said when we were discussing coaching and monthly fees (again, I was still moving up the career scale at this time and didn't think I could afford his listed rate for the entire season). He told me, "listen, if you can't afford the rate, could you afford it for 3-4 months before the race you want coaching for next year? I think if you did everything to train like you did for IMFL this year, you would be in the position for me to take over at that point." It made me realize that the coach was not after the dollar amount, but was really interested in making me a better athlete. We worked together the next four years and I definitely got faster, but the gains weren't linear. I had to work harder to gain the fruit that was a little bit higher up.

Now I'm back to coaching myself and it was actually at the coach's recommendation. He told me in the middle of the season last year to take a shot writing my plan because I was already doing a fair bit of it to accommodate for work travel and weekend plans. For the most part it's not anything out of the ordinary from what he was giving me, just that I know when I can fit which workout in the my week the best. I've been posting my best USAT scores since we ended things, but again the jump had been marginal. I'll probably be towards the pointy end of my AG when AA are done at the end of year.

So I guess my summary would be, yes, it takes time. Unless you come into this sport where you were a collegiate runner, cyclist, swimmer, I think it takes time to figure out how to race, especially long course. Your gains won't be linear yearly and will usually reflect training and the older you get it will reflect your diet too. If you do have a coach, find one who has the heart of a teacher and not a dictator. If you don't have the flexibility to move workouts around to best fit your schedule and have to wake up at 4:30 every morning to do them, you will most likely be gone from this sport within a year or two due to burnout.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn’t agree with this more. Shit can go sideways on race day for any number of reasons. Or like you said somebody else faster showed up and beat you.

of course I’m certain my perspective is different than a FOPer as my goals are usually focused on continuing to improve and staying health doing it. But I’ve had local races where I can often win my age group unless this one guy shows up who is a good bit faster than me. And I’ve definitely had races where I completely fell apart race day due to nutrition or life stress leading up to the race. None of that was my coach’s fault.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
I agree! I've only had one coach, for one year but that was my exact feeling. I literally just missed out on a Kona slot and figured I could use a coach to get the last few minutes to possibly KQ. Hired a well-known guy and he said "give me two years". Why? I'm already experienced and I've raced well, what are you going to do that would require 2 YEARS!!

And then go figure... had the worst race season ever when I was with him. QUIT... then self-coached got myself to Kona the next year.

So the coach was right. It took you 2 years.

/endthread
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be curious what your bitterness came from. It sounds like you got burned. And that's unfortunate, and I would say a great coach doesn't string you along because that thought of "being strung along" doesn't even cross the athlete's mind. It's all about expectations/goals/communication with this type of relationship, most especially if you are an online relationship. To me "it just takes" time is all about becoming super consistent with training. And that means accepting the ups and downs of training, and sometimes just going into "auto pilot" with training. Show up every day, week in and week out on top of a good specific plan, and I tell people your going to pretty much hit whatever goal you want. Now of course as I said, I am weery of an athlete saying "I have to KQ this year or else", because things all the time come up in training and/or racing that may limit that. And not that it's about being afraid of the expectations, but it's about setting the correct mindset. And when the correct mindset is set, the actual end result becomes less of a priority and more about the process (there's someone always faster than you out there).....because then if you nail the process, you suddenly will get the results you want.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Sep 19, 19 6:26
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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thatzone wrote:
I 100% acknowledge & accept all this takes time, BUT I think the gold $$$$ for a coach is stringing out the client under the guise of “It just takes time”.
Call me bitter (in regards to some coaches), but this separates a great coach from a POS.

A great coach doesn’t string you along for a long ride so to speak.

In other words shout out to all the GREAT coaches out there.

Please share your stories or if I’m off base here.
I don't think you're making much sense.
Let me qualify my response with the fact that I've never used a coach, but I don't think that matters much for what I'm saying:

Surely if you get a coach, it's because you want guidance, support and /or motivation in your training. Maybe you have a particular goal, maybe you just want to continue improving. Whichever the case may be, surely retaining a coach is something you will re-evaluate regularly, especially if things are not going as you'd want them. How does a coach telling you things take time, which we all know and you accept, constitute a shady business practice?
  1. Are you saying you suspect they intentionally restrict your progress to make you think you need them? Surely you'd want them more when progress is demonstrated!
  2. Are you saying you will stay with them if they tell you it takes time but not if they tell you it doesn't, regardless of knowing the truth and being able to evaluate your own progress? This is silliness since you've already accepted that "all this takes time".

Can you better explain your actual complaint?
It seems you are complaining about your own suspicion rather than any actual bad practices. But that seems unlikely!
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [Durhamskier] [ In reply to ]
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Durhamskier wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
I agree! I've only had one coach, for one year but that was my exact feeling. I literally just missed out on a Kona slot and figured I could use a coach to get the last few minutes to possibly KQ. Hired a well-known guy and he said "give me two years". Why? I'm already experienced and I've raced well, what are you going to do that would require 2 YEARS!!

And then go figure... had the worst race season ever when I was with him. QUIT... then self-coached got myself to Kona the next year.

So the coach was right. It took you 2 years.


/endthread

.
Just a general reply to the thread.

I don't think some of you are getting where the OP is coming from.I believe he is suggesting that "some" coaches convince people that they need multi year connections with a coach to achieve a goal and that "some" coaches convince their athletes that this sport of our is way more complicated than it is.

If you are a reasonably intelligent person with above average motivation then surely you should be able to learn from a coach over a period of much less than a year.If you are motivated to do some study and apply that to what you have already learned then for many the need for a coach to "teach" you how to train vanishes .Now if you are a person who needs to be held accountable to a coach for motivation then stay with that person by all means and work with them but you have to work out if that is really necessary.

I have seen coaches almost take over athletes lives during long training/coaching partnerships and have wondered the same thing the OP was wondering.Are they actually giving me the best progression possible that required a two year financial commitment or are they just stretching out that partnership to convinve me I need to keep paying for something I may very well be able to do myself?
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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In my limited experience I have seen a lot of bogus coach comments all over. It really doesn't take anything to call yourself a coach. However, there are also some really really good coaches. I was not very knowledgeable in endurance training. I've done some reading since, but my coach has had a big picture plan that has been pretty much spot on since we started working together almost 2 years ago. I am pretty sure I would've improved no matter what I did. Although, I feel confident I've improved more than I would've if I did it solo. The most important aspect is not just creating workout's in TP but it's also communication. If your coach is just writing a plan and not asking why your ride/run didn't have pace/power that correlated to HR then what's the point. Just buy a cookie cutter plan or make your own. A good coach excels in communication.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/23685202
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:
Durhamskier wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
I agree! I've only had one coach, for one year but that was my exact feeling. I literally just missed out on a Kona slot and figured I could use a coach to get the last few minutes to possibly KQ. Hired a well-known guy and he said "give me two years". Why? I'm already experienced and I've raced well, what are you going to do that would require 2 YEARS!!

And then go figure... had the worst race season ever when I was with him. QUIT... then self-coached got myself to Kona the next year.

So the coach was right. It took you 2 years.


/endthread

.
Just a general reply to the thread.

I don't think some of you are getting where the OP is coming from.I believe he is suggesting that "some" coaches convince people that they need multi year connections with a coach to achieve a goal and that "some" coaches convince their athletes that this sport of our is way more complicated than it is.

If you are a reasonably intelligent person with above average motivation then surely you should be able to learn from a coach over a period of much less than a year.If you are motivated to do some study and apply that to what you have already learned then for many the need for a coach to "teach" you how to train vanishes .Now if you are a person who needs to be held accountable to a coach for motivation then stay with that person by all means and work with them but you have to work out if that is really necessary.

I have seen coaches almost take over athletes lives during long training/coaching partnerships and have wondered the same thing the OP was wondering.Are they actually giving me the best progression possible that required a two year financial commitment or are they just stretching out that partnership to convinve me I need to keep paying for something I may very well be able to do myself?

Nah, we get where he's coming from. I think that's kinda missing the point of a good coaching arrangement though.

IMO, what constitutes a good coaching arrangement can vary substantially, depending on what the athlete wants to achieve and where they are in their progression & experience. For the most part, the ST crowd isn't looking for coaches who provide motivation. We tend to be motivated enough on our own. Nor are we really looking for "how to train", maybe some small nuances here and there, or figuring out periodization and stuff like that, but for the most part we already know how to train, broadly speaking anyway.

For THIS audience, those of us who are coached are looking for other things from our coaches, even if it's just taking some mental strain of planning out a season and workouts off our own shoulders, or having an outside perspective on what seems to be working and what isn't, or even just validation of good ideas and a slap upside the head when we have a stupid idea.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
For THIS audience, those of us who are coached are looking for other things from our coaches, even if it's just taking some mental strain of planning out a season and workouts off our own shoulders, or having an outside perspective on what seems to be working and what isn't, or even just validation of good ideas and a slap upside the head when we have a stupid idea.

This. I would rather pay for the wealth of knowledge and experience that my coach has than get it on my own. I did a lot of research on different coaches and found one whose philosophy I agreed with and then just let him do his work. It has worked out better than expected.

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [BigDig] [ In reply to ]
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BigDig wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
For THIS audience, those of us who are coached are looking for other things from our coaches, even if it's just taking some mental strain of planning out a season and workouts off our own shoulders, or having an outside perspective on what seems to be working and what isn't, or even just validation of good ideas and a slap upside the head when we have a stupid idea.

This. I would rather pay for the wealth of knowledge and experience that my coach has than get it on my own. I did a lot of research on different coaches and found one whose philosophy I agreed with and then just let him do his work. It has worked out better than expected.

I’m where you were before you got your coach

How did you research the various coaches?
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of atheletes overestimate themselves. In that case a good coach should say 'it will never happen' ;-)
Sam
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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If interested in a better outcome, think differently of the plan approach. Plans are a process with no ending timeline of multiple projects along the way.

In execution of business plans with projects assigned to good people (workers and internal leaders or expert consultants who serve as default leaders) the team at its best, will achieve only a combination of any 2 out of 3 objectives: #1 - Finish on-time, #2 - At budget, or #3 - With proper specifications. Red flags may be: consultants who like to string things along, internal leaders who like to blame others for failings, and good employees assigned to ill-fitting positions that don't bring out the best of their talent. Great teams will achieve all three if focused, trained, talented, and held accountable.

Think of triathlons as a means to compete at optimal levels in a set of races (projects). With good resources, the best will achieve only a combination of 2 out of 3 objectives: #1 - time goals, #2 - within coaching/eqp/race budgets, #3 - Injury free.
Red flags may be coaches who like to string things along or blame others for failings, and good triathletes thinking of unattainable times & timelines with under-developed or miss-directed talent, or over-stressed physical malfunctions.

Great triathletes with great coaches (not judging on elite or pro classifications), will achieve their collective objectives if focused, trained, talented, and held accountable.

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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [Durhamskier] [ In reply to ]
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Durhamskier wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
I agree! I've only had one coach, for one year but that was my exact feeling. I literally just missed out on a Kona slot and figured I could use a coach to get the last few minutes to possibly KQ. Hired a well-known guy and he said "give me two years". Why? I'm already experienced and I've raced well, what are you going to do that would require 2 YEARS!!

And then go figure... had the worst race season ever when I was with him. QUIT... then self-coached got myself to Kona the next year.

So the coach was right. It took you 2 years.


/endthread

I get that without the full understanding of what transpired and only having my half assed write-up here, you would assume that the coach was right. That is simply not the case. The coach was not on a "your first year is going to suck but year 2 will be awesome plan". His plan promised I would be stronger and fitter year 1. There was a mutual understanding that he would train me better than I trained myself and that year 1 I would see improvement.

That was simply not the case. Year 1 was a complete waste of time and I was massively undertrained versus years prior. I voiced my concerns that my bike and run splits were slow and that I was spending too much time in the pool (FYI - I'm a 54min swimmer already) months in advance of my races but he said "you're on track, your fitness will show itself on race day". It did not, I was clearly not as strong as previous years.

When he said that the next year would be the same process and that I'd see improvement, I just laughed. Of course there would be improvement, I sucked all year, how could I not improve? So I quit. The next year, I went back to what I had been doing and things started to actually progress back to normal.

I'm not naive, it's very possible that 12 months of being undertrained may have given my body the ability to take on load the following year and that's why I finally improved beyond the previous years but I'm also very aware that I didn't need 12 months to let my body rest. And that is why I feel so strongly about my coach and MY n=1 experience being a crock of shit.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Curious how you went about finding and selecting the coach? How much background and athlete results did you get? Local or online?

Sucks it went down that way.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
Durhamskier wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
I agree! I've only had one coach, for one year but that was my exact feeling. I literally just missed out on a Kona slot and figured I could use a coach to get the last few minutes to possibly KQ. Hired a well-known guy and he said "give me two years". Why? I'm already experienced and I've raced well, what are you going to do that would require 2 YEARS!!

And then go figure... had the worst race season ever when I was with him. QUIT... then self-coached got myself to Kona the next year.

So the coach was right. It took you 2 years.


/endthread

I get that without the full understanding of what transpired and only having my half assed write-up here, you would assume that the coach was right. That is simply not the case. The coach was not on a "your first year is going to suck but year 2 will be awesome plan". His plan promised I would be stronger and fitter year 1. There was a mutual understanding that he would train me better than I trained myself and that year 1 I would see improvement.

That was simply not the case. Year 1 was a complete waste of time and I was massively undertrained versus years prior. I voiced my concerns that my bike and run splits were slow and that I was spending too much time in the pool (FYI - I'm a 54min swimmer already) months in advance of my races but he said "you're on track, your fitness will show itself on race day". It did not, I was clearly not as strong as previous years.

When he said that the next year would be the same process and that I'd see improvement, I just laughed. Of course there would be improvement, I sucked all year, how could I not improve? So I quit. The next year, I went back to what I had been doing and things started to actually progress back to normal.

I'm not naive, it's very possible that 12 months of being undertrained may have given my body the ability to take on load the following year and that's why I finally improved beyond the previous years but I'm also very aware that I didn't need 12 months to let my body rest. And that is why I feel so strongly about my coach and MY n=1 experience being a crock of shit.

You know I was just joking with you, right? What it comes down to is this: there are good coaches, there are bad coaches, and just because a coach is a good coach doesn't mean that he or she is a good coach FOR YOU. If you don't have confidence in the coach, then it's time to move on.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123 wrote:
BigDig wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
For THIS audience, those of us who are coached are looking for other things from our coaches, even if it's just taking some mental strain of planning out a season and workouts off our own shoulders, or having an outside perspective on what seems to be working and what isn't, or even just validation of good ideas and a slap upside the head when we have a stupid idea.

This. I would rather pay for the wealth of knowledge and experience that my coach has than get it on my own. I did a lot of research on different coaches and found one whose philosophy I agreed with and then just let him do his work. It has worked out better than expected.

I’m where you were before you got your coach

How did you research the various coaches?

My coach sucks, I wouldn't recommend him at all. Didn't even give me a trucker hat. Price is good though....

(seriously though, I have several coaches through my swim club, but they are just responsible for writing individual workouts for the group, to a lesser extent they'll help with the pre-meet prep phases but generally I'm responsible for planning out my own season. )

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Sep 19, 19 12:08
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Curious how you went about finding and selecting the coach? How much background and athlete results did you get? Local or online?

Sucks it went down that way.

I went with an online coach that was supposed to be very hands-on with TONS of proven experience. Hindsight being 20/20, he wasn't involved enough day-to-day.

Mind you, this was years ago... if I was in the same position looking for a coach today, I would never even consider him. I would chose someone local.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [ In reply to ]
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Reading this thread is having me reflect on my own experiences.
At the moment I feel like I need to end things with my coach at the end of the season in 4 weeks.I'm still unsure if its my arragance thinking I know better. I've been with my coach since june 2018. The end of last season I saw incredible gains going from uncoached and always going hard, to a structured plan really showed progress. This year has been a little rocky though. I got a run injury, technically fault doesn't fall completely on them but that hit my confidence a bit. My times have improved across the board but seems to have hit a wall.
Some things that I notice are that, yes my coach also says it "takes time" I get that, but they also don't provide a really good reason for the types of training I do.
ALL runs are pace/distance based and never more than 3x a week. The long run is never planned to be slower than HM pace + 30s per mile. That doesn't feel right to me, and the run is where I really need to improve to be competitive in the overall standings.
The bike workouts come straight from the zwift catalogue, they pick and choose the workouts from multiple zwift plans for me to do that week, and sometimes even a direct copy of the bike workouts week by week. Why would I pay someone to have me complete a premade zwift plan?
Now onto the swim, they do masters classes and I've seen the greatest improvement here. But now I am at the point where I'm the fastest in the class and we don't really get a lot of poolside coaching anymore in the fast lane because they are busy helping the less experienced folks.

So with all these red flags, I have lost a bit of trust in my coach. But I've definitely gotten faster under them than had I not so that's where I'm still iffy about staying with them or going to someone else.

IG - @ryanppax
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]
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similar. i went my first 3 im without coaching, shaving almost an hour off each one. i thought i would get a coach. heard amazing things about a local coaching group so gave it a try. i was very specific, i have a crazy work schedule (not hours, but schedule) where i work late tu/th and early m/w/f so training would have to work around that. i asked before i signed up. they said yes. i paid a bit more money for a higher tiered coach.

tuesday evening workout 3 hours, wednesday morning workout 90 mins.
message on forum, that's the plan. you have to be dedicated to it.

da faaaak?

i get home from work at 8. i walk the dog. then you want me to workout till 11:30, shower, eat, sleep 8 hours then wake up and do a 90 min workout before work at 7am.

there are not enough hours between work end and work start. i clearly specified this. their plan states athletes should bank 8 hours of sleep per night. well, how the f do i do that. whatever, i stuck with it. i adjusted (on my own, since i got no help). did almost all the workouts (minus being sick). ended up with a PR in the wrong direction.

it was a complete waste of money. it was no doubt a copy paste plan.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123 wrote:
BigDig wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:

For THIS audience, those of us who are coached are looking for other things from our coaches, even if it's just taking some mental strain of planning out a season and workouts off our own shoulders, or having an outside perspective on what seems to be working and what isn't, or even just validation of good ideas and a slap upside the head when we have a stupid idea.


This. I would rather pay for the wealth of knowledge and experience that my coach has than get it on my own. I did a lot of research on different coaches and found one whose philosophy I agreed with and then just let him do his work. It has worked out better than expected.


I’m where you were before you got your coach

How did you research the various coaches?

I am a really poor judge of people as I believe what people say and can't tell when people are full of it until way too late. Therefore interviewing people is useless, I will go with the slickest talker which is exactly what I don't want. I am not a big 'group' person so community/team type coaching scenarios (Endurance Nation) aren't for me. I also knew there were plenty of folks who got their coaching credentials from a weekend course which is something I don't need. I therefore whittled down the coaches by background (education, previous athletes) and spent a lot of time reading what they had written. Articles they posted on their websites and a lot of what they had written on slowtwitch. I found a coach whose philosophy and manner I felt I could work with and would get me results.

We are 2 years into a 3 year goal. I have met or exceeded my intermediate goals in all but one of my races and am ahead of my internal mental timeline.

And most importantly I am not injured.

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [BigDig] [ In reply to ]
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BigDig wrote:
MrTri123 wrote:
BigDig wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:

For THIS audience, those of us who are coached are looking for other things from our coaches, even if it's just taking some mental strain of planning out a season and workouts off our own shoulders, or having an outside perspective on what seems to be working and what isn't, or even just validation of good ideas and a slap upside the head when we have a stupid idea.


This. I would rather pay for the wealth of knowledge and experience that my coach has than get it on my own. I did a lot of research on different coaches and found one whose philosophy I agreed with and then just let him do his work. It has worked out better than expected.


I’m where you were before you got your coach

How did you research the various coaches?

I am a really poor judge of people as I believe what people say and can't tell when people are full of it until way too late. Therefore interviewing people is useless, I will go with the slickest talker which is exactly what I don't want. I am not a big 'group' person so community/team type coaching scenarios (Endurance Nation) aren't for me. I also knew there were plenty of folks who got their coaching credentials from a weekend course which is something I don't need. I therefore whittled down the coaches by background (education, previous athletes) and spent a lot of time reading what they had written. Articles they posted on their websites and a lot of what they had written on slowtwitch. I found a coach whose philosophy and manner I felt I could work with and would get me results.

We are 2 years into a 3 year goal. I have met or exceeded my intermediate goals in all but one of my races and am ahead of my internal mental timeline.

And most importantly I am not injured.

Lol you sound like my twin

Can’t judge people.

Go with the slick talker

Ok thank you for the path to follow. I’ll start researching

Thank you

Best of luck on your 3 year plan
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123 wrote:
Lol you sound like my twin


My wife sends her condolences to your significant other.

MrTri123 wrote:
Best of luck on your 3 year plan

Thanks, I hope your coaching experience is a good one!

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]
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Never hurts to talk to your coach, remind them. Communication is key.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [BigDig] [ In reply to ]
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I researched in a similar fashion. Found someone local (that was not necessarily a requirement) who had educational background, certifications, own successful athletic background, as well lots of successful athletes but also athletes with at many different skill levels. I followed her posts and athletes for a bit before deciding to go with her. She’s helped me improve, stay healthy, and also maintain a good balance between life and training
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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thatzone wrote:
I 100% acknowledge & accept all this takes time, BUT I think the gold $$$$ for a coach is stringing out the client under the guise of “It just takes time”.
Call me bitter (in regards to some coaches), but this separates a great coach from a POS.

A great coach doesn’t string you along for a long ride so to speak.

In other words shout out to all the GREAT coaches out there.

Please share your stories or if I’m off base here.


meanwhile in another. thread we are discussing if a double olympic champ and 2 times. 70.3 wc podium will manage Kona despite now doing triathlon for 20 years....

you are trying to blame coaches for not doing your homework to find the right coach for you. he asked you too give him 2 years and you should have said no ,or get a good reason whats the strategy and why.
I am sure you have a case, but by and large the bigger problem is that most athletes. want to go from 0 to hero to quickly those days. so if there is a good, development plan it is good coaching to plan long term.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]
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The exact copy of a weeks Zwift plans workouts seems lazy for sure. It’s one thing to pick or choose some Zwift workouts that are appropriate for you on any given day.
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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Coach for a hobby?...the best coach is no coach......
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Re: Everytime I hear a coach saying “It just takes time” I immediately think ‘Business Plan’ [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
thatzone wrote:
I 100% acknowledge & accept all this takes time, BUT I think the gold $$$$ for a coach is stringing out the client under the guise of “It just takes time”.
Call me bitter (in regards to some coaches), but this separates a great coach from a POS.

A great coach doesn’t string you along for a long ride so to speak.

In other words shout out to all the GREAT coaches out there.

Please share your stories or if I’m off base here.


Sounds like you got burned. Like you said when you opened this thread, it takes time. There is no magic bullet. In fact I'd say the worst coaches out there will tell you that if you do x+y+z you'll automatically improve. The brutal reality is that it takes consistency and often times that's boring.

Personally, if someone said to me, "It just takes time", I'd ask them what that time will give me. I always have an answer when that is brought up. I also don't lock anyone into a contract. People are free to leave whenever. Also, if you know most coaches, there's not very much "Gold $$$$" in this.

this ^^^^

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