Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]

Mar 29, 24 8:09

Post #51 of 69 (1010 views)

What is good to win the Olympics might not be your best choice. Actually, and without knowing you, I would guess it's a different sport altogether.

Like one top swimming trainer used to say; swimming is what happens under 1"/100. 1:15 has merit, but it's a different sport.

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Mar 29, 24 9:40

Post #52 of 69 (971 views)

ericmulk wrote:

PTinAZ wrote:

lightheir wrote:

The response of 'no injury reduction' is more complex than the studies make it out to be.

Shoed vs unshoed actually get different types of injury. It's definitely not true to say 'they're the same for injuries.' The weightloading from cushioned to noncushioned is pretty dramatic.

It's definitely reasonable that someone who suffers from predominant ankle arthritis but has good knees may do better in a cushioned shoe that relieves the calf/ankle loading, whereas someone with pristine ankles but somewhat limiting knee/hip arthritis might actually benefit from switching to a less cushioned shoe.

Yes someone with a particular medical history may benefit from a certain type of shoe vs another...agreed.

And yes, types of injuries may vary a bit between types of shoes, but prevalence isn't any different. Folks get injured with any and all types of shoes.

Wow, I never realized that 37-56% of runners are injured every year. I guess I must be fortunate then b/c I've run for about 33 yrs and have only ever been injured once. I've never run huge amounts but have run up to 50 mi/wk for 6-7 wks at a time. My long-term avg is about 20 mi/wk, low due to lots of swimming (20,000 yd/wk) and some cycling (70 mi/wk). I've never tried to be a pure runner, mostly b/c I just don't enjoy it that much.

I am guessing your aerobic engine relative to your body weight and is good and your body weight relative to height is trending on the lean side.

If you take an overweight person with also a below average aerobic engine, each stride has a ton of force and if the aerbobic engine is not great, then the muscles can't be supplied with a ton of oxygen. There is a virtuous cycle that happens with a big engine and being light and not everyone has that, meaning they are more likely to get injured than people like you (or I). I got to watch this in action coaching youth sport for 15 years. You knew some kids would be more likely to have injuries while others would thrive because they already picked the right parents and had decent body composition on top of that. Like is not fair when it comes to running.

I am not surprised by the percent of people who get injured. Running is really hard. Here at the pointy end of ST, we don't generally represent the overall bell curve of what is out there.

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [Nerd] [ In reply to ]

Mar 29, 24 9:56

Post #53 of 69 (959 views)

Nerd wrote:

my orthopedic surgeon commented to me a few years ago, that he's made a bunch of money from people reading Born to Run and running a bunch of miles in barefoot shoes or doing CrossFit.

And now he is making a lot of money thanks to bouncey shoes with a spring leading to ankle/Achilles injuries. As others are stating injuries will happen no matter what shoes type,just differently.

Regards to leg stiffness and cushioned shoes, have other people noticed decline in ability to jump?

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [ecce-homo] [ In reply to ]

Mar 29, 24 11:15

Post #54 of 69 (922 views)

We are all confident in ideas that seem to make sense.

For example a few weeks ago LS put out a video saying he was done with carbon shoes because the advantage of racing in them was lost if you trained in them as well. Made perfect sense. I used to do swim practices in a drag suit (which was still faster than the suit I wore as a teenager, but that's another story). So running in "drag" shoes made perfect sense. Out came the Hokas and the Altras of old and off I went. And I now have my first black toes in 15 months......😥

Of course I will still train on my Dutch bike...🤣🤣

Research papers are often like busses.
If you wait a bit one will come along that will take you where you think you want to go.

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]

Mar 29, 24 12:25

Post #55 of 69 (879 views)

michael Hatch wrote:

We are all confident in ideas that seem to make sense.

For example a few weeks ago LS put out a video saying he was done with carbon shoes because the advantage of racing in them was lost if you trained in them as well. Made perfect sense. I used to do swim practices in a drag suit (which was still faster than the suit I wore as a teenager, but that's another story). So running in "drag" shoes made perfect sense. Out came the Hokas and the Altras of old and off I went. And I now have my first black toes in 15 months......😥

Of course I will still train on my Dutch bike...🤣🤣

Research papers are often like busses.
If you wait a bit one will come along that will take you where you think you want to go.

It’s funny that there is so much unfounded confidence in people who push a particular running style, and then you encounter someone like Dr. Philip Skiba’s take and he cites studies showing experts fail to predict running efficiency. The more you know.

Another thing that irks me is the “run by falling/let gravity do the work” description. Gravitational effects are generally orthogonal (vertical) to the running direction (horizontal), and power is dot(F,v) … which in this case is near zero save for inclines/declines. A natural lean angle arises from having to cancel the rotation due to the static friction force at the contact patch, by having the center of gravity somewhere forward of the contact patch. This makes sense… we lean hard when accelerating from a stand and less so at cruising speeds. In theory a very efficient, low-drag runner would have a smaller lean angle for a given speed than a less efficient runner.

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [Nerd] [ In reply to ]

Mar 29, 24 12:45

Post #56 of 69 (869 views)

Nerd wrote:

my orthopedic surgeon commented to me a few years ago, that he's made a bunch of money from people reading Born to Run and running a bunch of miles in barefoot shoes or doing CrossFit.

Without proof, I speculate that recreational runners get injured more than recreational CrossFitters.

Elite runners and elite CrossFitters are almost always fighting some level of niggling-to-serious injury. Just the nature of being elite that you're pushing your body to the limits of overuse.

One advantage of recreational CrossFit is that if you get a niggling pain in some bodypart, you can just keep on CrossFitting and not stress that part of the body. There are two guys in my gym with niggling shoulder pain from the recent CrossFit Open, and they're just coming in doing all the squats, box jumps, etc, and just going light on the shoulder stuff. Overuse injury in CrossFit is rare since the programming tends to vary which part of the body is being stressed from day to day. With running, every day is leg day.

I know from hard-won experience that when you get a running injury as a runner your training is pretty much hosed. You can sometimes do aqua jogging and stuff...but that's not quite the same.

Last edited by: trail: Mar 29, 24 12:46

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [codygo] [ In reply to ]

Mar 29, 24 13:01

Post #57 of 69 (855 views)

codygo wrote:

It’s funny that there is so much unfounded confidence in people who push a particular running style, and then you encounter someone like Dr. Philip Skiba’s take and he cites studies showing experts fail to predict running efficiency. The more you know.

Another thing that irks me is the “run by falling/let gravity do the work” description. Gravitational effects are generally orthogonal (vertical) to the running direction (horizontal), and power is dot(F,v) … which in this case is near zero save for inclines/declines. A natural lean angle arises from having to cancel the rotation due to the static friction force at the contact patch, by having the center of gravity somewhere forward of the contact patch. This makes sense… we lean hard when accelerating from a stand and less so at cruising speeds. In theory a very efficient, low-drag runner would have a smaller lean angle for a given speed than a less efficient runner.

I agree that the "falling/leg gravity do the work" instructions are dumb, and I instantly tune that stuff out.

I'd push back a little bit on gravity effect being "near zero" except on incline/decline, and the simple power model as description of the the complex kinematics of running Most of the energy expense in running is fighting gravitational force (part of why bodyweight is highly correlated with running performance), and there's some evidence that vertical oscillation of center mass is inversely correlated to energy use efficiency. (source)

X-axis is a measure of mass oscillation over a stride, using the pelvis as a measuring point. Doing mental linear regression, that looks like a near-perfect diagonal line to me.

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Mar 29, 24 18:46

Post #58 of 69 (778 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

ericmulk wrote:

PTinAZ wrote:

lightheir wrote:

The response of 'no injury reduction' is more complex than the studies make it out to be.

Shoed vs unshoed actually get different types of injury. It's definitely not true to say 'they're the same for injuries.' The weightloading from cushioned to noncushioned is pretty dramatic.

It's definitely reasonable that someone who suffers from predominant ankle arthritis but has good knees may do better in a cushioned shoe that relieves the calf/ankle loading, whereas someone with pristine ankles but somewhat limiting knee/hip arthritis might actually benefit from switching to a less cushioned shoe.

Yes someone with a particular medical history may benefit from a certain type of shoe vs another...agreed.

And yes, types of injuries may vary a bit between types of shoes, but prevalence isn't any different. Folks get injured with any and all types of shoes.

Wow, I never realized that 37-56% of runners are injured every year. I guess I must be fortunate then b/c I've run for about 33 yrs and have only ever been injured once. I've never run huge amounts but have run up to 50 mi/wk for 6-7 wks at a time. My long-term avg is about 20 mi/wk, low due to lots of swimming (20,000 yd/wk) and some cycling (70 mi/wk). I've never tried to be a pure runner, mostly b/c I just don't enjoy it that much.

I am guessing your aerobic engine relative to your body weight and is good and your body weight relative to height is trending on the lean side.

If you take an overweight person with also a below average aerobic engine, each stride has a ton of force and if the aerbobic engine is not great, then the muscles can't be supplied with a ton of oxygen. There is a virtuous cycle that happens with a big engine and being light and not everyone has that, meaning they are more likely to get injured than people like you (or I). I got to watch this in action coaching youth sport for 15 years. You knew some kids would be more likely to have injuries while others would thrive because they already picked the right parents and had decent body composition on top of that. Like is not fair when it comes to running.

I am not surprised by the percent of people who get injured. Running is really hard. Here at the pointy end of ST, we don't generally represent the overall bell curve of what is out there.

Ya I think I more or less fit your description: about 6'1", 175 lb, 7-ish% fat, with long arms and legs. Decent aerobic engine, ran 18:55 for 5K and swam 20:37 for the 1500 scm in my younger days. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [trail] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 24 6:01

Post #59 of 69 (708 views)

trail wrote:

codygo wrote:

It’s funny that there is so much unfounded confidence in people who push a particular running style, and then you encounter someone like Dr. Philip Skiba’s take and he cites studies showing experts fail to predict running efficiency. The more you know.

Another thing that irks me is the “run by falling/let gravity do the work” description. Gravitational effects are generally orthogonal (vertical) to the running direction (horizontal), and power is dot(F,v) … which in this case is near zero save for inclines/declines. A natural lean angle arises from having to cancel the rotation due to the static friction force at the contact patch, by having the center of gravity somewhere forward of the contact patch. This makes sense… we lean hard when accelerating from a stand and less so at cruising speeds. In theory a very efficient, low-drag runner would have a smaller lean angle for a given speed than a less efficient runner.

I agree that the "falling/leg gravity do the work" instructions are dumb, and I instantly tune that stuff out.

I'd push back a little bit on gravity effect being "near zero" except on incline/decline, and the simple power model as description of the the complex kinematics of running Most of the energy expense in running is fighting gravitational force (part of why bodyweight is highly correlated with running performance), and there's some evidence that vertical oscillation of center mass is inversely correlated to energy use efficiency..

I didn’t word it properly, but I had initially written about “negative work” required to fight gravity, so I agree that it contributes significantly to the cost of running.

What I was trying to point out though is that unless you’re running downhill, the weight force cannot contribute to work done in the direction of travel — even though it is a force we must perform “negative work” against to keep our bodies from just crumbling to the floor.

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [codygo] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 24 7:26

Post #60 of 69 (693 views)

codygo wrote:

Another thing that irks me is the “run by falling/let gravity do the work” description. Gravitational effects are generally orthogonal (vertical) to the running direction (horizontal), and power is dot(F,v) … which in this case is near zero save for inclines/declines. A natural lean angle arises from having to cancel the rotation due to the static friction force at the contact patch, by having the center of gravity somewhere forward of the contact patch. This makes sense… we lean hard when accelerating from a stand and less so at cruising speeds. In theory a very efficient, low-drag runner would have a smaller lean angle for a given speed than a less efficient runner.

WTF - why are you trying to make running as complicated as swimming. Just Run!

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 24 12:52

Post #61 of 69 (649 views)

ericmulk wrote:

PTinAZ wrote:

lightheir wrote:

The response of 'no injury reduction' is more complex than the studies make it out to be.

Shoed vs unshoed actually get different types of injury. It's definitely not true to say 'they're the same for injuries.' The weightloading from cushioned to noncushioned is pretty dramatic.

It's definitely reasonable that someone who suffers from predominant ankle arthritis but has good knees may do better in a cushioned shoe that relieves the calf/ankle loading, whereas someone with pristine ankles but somewhat limiting knee/hip arthritis might actually benefit from switching to a less cushioned shoe.

Yes someone with a particular medical history may benefit from a certain type of shoe vs another...agreed.

And yes, types of injuries may vary a bit between types of shoes, but prevalence isn't any different. Folks get injured with any and all types of shoes.

Wow, I never realized that 37-56% of runners are injured every year. I guess I must be fortunate then b/c I've run for about 33 yrs and have only ever been injured once. I've never run huge amounts but have run up to 50 mi/wk for 6-7 wks at a time. My long-term avg is about 20 mi/wk, low due to lots of swimming (20,000 yd/wk) and some cycling (70 mi/wk). I've never tried to be a pure runner, mostly b/c I just don't enjoy it that much.

37-56% is a huge range. I'm wondering how inclusive "injury" is. Lots of runners get a slight flare up of their ITB, some shin splints, a sore Achilles, etc. Do those count as injuries? Exactly how sore do my knees have to feel after a run to be injured?

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 24 19:21

Post #62 of 69 (595 views)

I hope nobody in here takes any advice from orthopedic surgeons. They literally make a killing off of your poor running form and are always happy to operate. They are a part of the problem IMO. That being said, increase the cadence, land on your mid foot(yeah it takes concentration) and run in whatever shoe feels good. Moon boots, military boots, dress shoes, or a strap of rubber. Anybody landing on straight legs without using the body as it was meant to mitigate and then absorb that shock through muscles, tendons, and many bent joints VS extended knees is going to get injured. Increase mileage too quickly, and you’re going to get injured. Changing from thick Hokas to carbon race shoes without adapting to them, you’re going to get injured. The body adapts well but TIME is what most runners fail to give their bodies in training. Everybody wants a quick fix.. i agree. Dumb “study”

Last edited by: TonyRad: Mar 30, 24 19:22

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]

Mar 31, 24 9:02

Post #63 of 69 (513 views)

IntenseOne wrote:

This study mirrors results from a 1960 military study on over 40,000 boot camp cadets. Besides assessing incident of injury, they also did force impact studies, and found that with more cushioning came higher impact loads on the legs.
In my own N=1 “study”, at 63 years old this year I finally decided why not at least try barefoot running. For this I did not actually run barefoot, I used a “shoe” from a company named Skinners (http://www.skinners.cc). These shoes are mistaken as socks by most people, as is it essentially what they are, except with a very thin protective material on the bottom- glass, etc cannot cut through. My first run I was very skeptical, and cautious, starting very slowly. It felt much better than expected, and I gradually increased my pace, and within about 1/4 mile was running my normal training pace. It felt great! I limited the run to 1.5 miles, and continued to do this for a full week. Over this week, my feet got noticeably stronger, and I enjoyed running in Skinners much more than my regular mix of conventional neutral shoes.
I have now been doing this for almost 2 months, am up to 45 miles a week in my build up period, and my feet, legs, knees, and back have never felt better.
Before starting this experiment I never thought I could run without some form of cushioning. I am glad I tried, for me, running without cushion is definitely better.
I doubt this would work out for everyone, but I do think everyone should give it a try and find out :-)

I'd be interested in your "5 year review" of the barefoot experience.

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [stringcheese] [ In reply to ]

Mar 31, 24 17:08

Post #64 of 69 (459 views)

We know how this works out already. Late 2000s to early 2010s barefoot running trend. Vibrams and all that horseshit.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Mar 31, 24 17:48

Post #65 of 69 (416 views)

Running barefoot in a grassy field once a week helps to initiate good running form. One of my favorite workouts. Beginner runners strapping on toe shoes and running marathons on concrete was never going to be a good thing. Why do people always think in such extremes? This or that?

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [TonyRad] [ In reply to ]

Mar 31, 24 18:56

Post #66 of 69 (390 views)

TonyRad wrote:

Running barefoot in a grassy field once a week helps to initiate good running form. One of my favorite workouts. Beginner runners strapping on toe shoes and running marathons on concrete was never going to be a good thing. Why do people always think in such extremes? This or that?

I find running on grass or astro turf either barefoot or with vibrams ideal. I still jog slowly a few times per week for ten minutes in the winter on my treadmill with vibrams as I have some nerve damage in my left lumbar spine and doing easy jogging with almost nothing on my feet is good for my coordination.

Other than that, running with reasonable stack in the 35mm range on pavement most of the time. Best of both worlds.

I don't think it makes any sense running with thin shoes on concrete and pavement. As you said, things don't need to be so extreme.

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Mar 31, 24 19:08

Post #67 of 69 (380 views)

Quote:

I don't think it makes any sense running with thin shoes on concrete and pavement. As you said, things don't need to be so extreme.

Yeah, concrete is a man made thing. Not a great running surface in general. Give me trails all day every day over the asphalt jungle. We can learn a lot about running barefoot and then carry that information over to wearing shoes. The shoes by themselves will not solve any problems. Proper biomechanics and running efficiency paired with a host of shoes for different types of runs. Best of both worlds.

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [stringcheese] [ In reply to ]

Mar 31, 24 22:28

Post #68 of 69 (348 views)

stringcheese wrote:

IntenseOne wrote:

This study mirrors results from a 1960 military study on over 40,000 boot camp cadets. Besides assessing incident of injury, they also did force impact studies, and found that with more cushioning came higher impact loads on the legs.
In my own N=1 “study”, at 63 years old this year I finally decided why not at least try barefoot running. For this I did not actually run barefoot, I used a “shoe” from a company named Skinners (http://www.skinners.cc). These shoes are mistaken as socks by most people, as is it essentially what they are, except with a very thin protective material on the bottom- glass, etc cannot cut through. My first run I was very skeptical, and cautious, starting very slowly. It felt much better than expected, and I gradually increased my pace, and within about 1/4 mile was running my normal training pace. It felt great! I limited the run to 1.5 miles, and continued to do this for a full week. Over this week, my feet got noticeably stronger, and I enjoyed running in Skinners much more than my regular mix of conventional neutral shoes.
I have now been doing this for almost 2 months, am up to 45 miles a week in my build up period, and my feet, legs, knees, and back have never felt better.
Before starting this experiment I never thought I could run without some form of cushioning. I am glad I tried, for me, running without cushion is definitely better.
I doubt this would work out for everyone, but I do think everyone should give it a try and find out :-)

I'd be interested in your "5 year review" of the barefoot experience.

“5 year review”…barefoot running or walking should be considered like any other shoe choice, make the correct choice for your application. There is absolutely no question that being in traditional shoes all day, or most of the day is harmful to your foot and overall health. Running barefoot on grass, sand and soft surfaces feels great, but running on hard surfaces for shorter durations can also be a good experience. For longer runs, and higher intensities I prefer shoes with minimal stack and smooth feeling midfoot rocker, such as the Asics Noosa Tri and Asics Metaspeed Edge. Keep in mind that shoe choice is highly individual, and a proper fitting shoe should feel great immediately! This is particularly the case with Carbon Plated shoes, the first 5 I tried were awful (for me). I had actually given up, but tried the ASICS Metaspeed Edge when a good friend with my same size, 9.5, had a pair he did not like and allowed me to try them. Finally a carbon plate that felt just like my favorite ASICs.
So, I will still do shorter recovery runs barefoot, training and racing in a more conventional shoe- but I am immediately out of them when done with the run. Just walking around, hiking (even technical), I use Skinners, which are essentially low cut socks with 2mm of Kevlar for the outsole!
BTW- just doing your everyday walking barefoot or in a minimal shoe will provide the maximum benefit in foot health- great on the knees too :-)

Re: Cushioned shoes increase leg stiffness and amplifies impact loading [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]

Apr 1, 24 5:49

Post #69 of 69 (303 views)

IntenseOne wrote:

stringcheese wrote:

IntenseOne wrote:

This study mirrors results from a 1960 military study on over 40,000 boot camp cadets. Besides assessing incident of injury, they also did force impact studies, and found that with more cushioning came higher impact loads on the legs.
In my own N=1 “study”, at 63 years old this year I finally decided why not at least try barefoot running. For this I did not actually run barefoot, I used a “shoe” from a company named Skinners (http://www.skinners.cc). These shoes are mistaken as socks by most people, as is it essentially what they are, except with a very thin protective material on the bottom- glass, etc cannot cut through. My first run I was very skeptical, and cautious, starting very slowly. It felt much better than expected, and I gradually increased my pace, and within about 1/4 mile was running my normal training pace. It felt great! I limited the run to 1.5 miles, and continued to do this for a full week. Over this week, my feet got noticeably stronger, and I enjoyed running in Skinners much more than my regular mix of conventional neutral shoes.
I have now been doing this for almost 2 months, am up to 45 miles a week in my build up period, and my feet, legs, knees, and back have never felt better.
Before starting this experiment I never thought I could run without some form of cushioning. I am glad I tried, for me, running without cushion is definitely better.
I doubt this would work out for everyone, but I do think everyone should give it a try and find out :-)

I'd be interested in your "5 year review" of the barefoot experience.

“5 year review”…barefoot running or walking should be considered like any other shoe choice, make the correct choice for your application. There is absolutely no question that being in traditional shoes all day, or most of the day is harmful to your foot and overall health. Running barefoot on grass, sand and soft surfaces feels great, but running on hard surfaces for shorter durations can also be a good experience. For longer runs, and higher intensities I prefer shoes with minimal stack and smooth feeling midfoot rocker, such as the Asics Noosa Tri and Asics Metaspeed Edge. Keep in mind that shoe choice is highly individual, and a proper fitting shoe should feel great immediately! This is particularly the case with Carbon Plated shoes, the first 5 I tried were awful (for me). I had actually given up, but tried the ASICS Metaspeed Edge when a good friend with my same size, 9.5, had a pair he did not like and allowed me to try them. Finally a carbon plate that felt just like my favorite ASICs.
So, I will still do shorter recovery runs barefoot, training and racing in a more conventional shoe- but I am immediately out of them when done with the run. Just walking around, hiking (even technical), I use Skinners, which are essentially low cut socks with 2mm of Kevlar for the outsole!
BTW- just doing your everyday walking barefoot or in a minimal shoe will provide the maximum benefit in foot health- great on the knees too :-)

TY

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

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