Summary from Messick's answers on Kona 2023 mens:
we tried,
we couldn't,
don't make non-refundable travel (we might screw you up again, basically!!)
I don't know

At least he showed up, but I'm struggling why ST interviewer (Ryan) was so basic in his questions.
I wish he could have asked, what happen to those athletes that already KQ, paid for the slot, schedule flights and booked lodges (all non-refundable)
Is IM going to refund the slot at least if the athlete wish for it? if not, why?

Because that question was already answered in their FAQs. You can defer to 2024 Kona.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

and refund option? non-fundable lodge and air tickets?
I just wish you could have put Messick in the spot and have a proper response to athletes, or have the decency of apologizing at least.

I’m sorry, but we’ve covered the idea of non-refundable travel before. Don’t do it.

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I wish you had asked for more clarity and on when they started having doubts. It sounds like it was right after this year’s race. Why did they persist in selling slots to a men’s race in 2023 they knew was unlikely to occur?

Dozens / hundreds of men booked flights, paid for rooms, etc. based on their falsehood that a race was taking place.

They couldn’t do their jobs properly, then they lied to buy time, and now their customers are screwed.

Is there clarity that the 2024 event will even happen? Or is Messick announcing unofficial information again?

The guy needs to take his multiple Golden Parachutes and walk away already.

Oh right - I had to have hand surgery due to skiing injury in Feb 2020. I submitted a claim before the surgery with the race and travel insurance I bought through IM as part of my registration. They kept denying claim saying they did not issue claims against covid cancelled races..... The race was Cancelled in March....Back and forth back and forth and got nothing... How convenient.... Good luck

Did you have any off-line conversation about the rumors of Nice, France for the men? Are they considering Nice? Is Europe the Men's likely destination? Did you ask if they would rotate to other places in the future (like maybe back to St. George)?

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

Did you ask him what flavor ice cream he likes? How about the bu$ine$$ drivers in the decision?

He plays the Victim all the way to the bank.

I get the anger at Ironman. What I don't get is that there are many alternatives. Challenge, Extreme or whatever it's called, etc.
It's not like the behavior is new. And ultimately they listen (a bit). It took what, 20 years to be able to transfer or defer races?
Vote with your money if you don't like it.

Not to put words in their mouth, but my read was:

—they received commitment to two days in Kona before this years race and made decisions as such.
—they saw the comments from the mayor but remained optimistic that with changes, they would be accepted; and
—it was only recently it was confirmed that it was one day available in Kona.

At which point, you’re left with three bad options:

1.) cut slots to make it one day again, despite having promised those (and all the registrations driven off of them).
2.) rip the whole thing out of Kona.
3.) do what they came up with.

At which point I think this is the best “bad” option they have. There should always be a WC race in Kona.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Wherever 2023’s second venue is, it will be a two year agreement.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

We had a lot of catching up to do. But mostly about family stuff.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

‘We have a sense of obligation to the men who are not going to be racing in Kona in 2023 to tell them don’t make non-refundable travel. ‘
This is a joke. Disgusting

I hope the PTO is watching. They should host a Pro and AG World Championships race with large Pro purses Sep next year. Hawaii Venue other than Kona or? Hold a few AG qualifying races - Partner with Challenge? Time to strike....

But should there?


Sometimes orgs outgrow their birthplaces. They move, move on. Find different pastures that let them grow bigger, stronger.

At least this time they didn't fuck the women over by moving them (or the men by changing the date 28d out)

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I think for now, we do. It's probably too much to handle to move it all out of Kona -- I can only imagine what *that* would look like.

I don't know whether this is the trial for beyond 2024 that brings us to a rotating two day world championships, or if it makes Kona miss having everyone, or what. As Andrew said -- anything is possible.

My reading of the tea leaves is they wanted to wait until they could announce the actual location -- based on that January date, they'd just have needed to push through WA. That also seems, at least to me, that they were still holding out hope that they'd be able to figure out an amicable solution in Hawaii up until very recently.

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I predict in 2026 we are back in Kona for 1 day event. 2000 athletes, men and women. Back to being hard to qualify. All will be right again.

Not a chance.

Qualifying isn't getting substantially easier -- at least for men. It brings us in line with the number of slots that were available at races in that 2007-2013 time frame. At best a couple extra in your most populous age groups.

And they will not ever go back to one day.

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correct me, but was it not ironmans stance last year that either kona gives us 2 days or we leave ....

also why announce 2 years 2 days in kona when something is not set in stone. thats not common for ironman do to. so what made them change their usual procedure to announce things that are set in stone , especially when for an outsider it did appear they really tried to pressure kona into 2 days when the community was not with them.

I think the way to get at that issue is to ask something like:

As you likely know, many athletes are frustrated by the move away from Kona. Even some who are open to a change of venue might not like the way it was handled. This includes athletes who registered for Kona and have already booked travel as well as those who have registered for an IM race with the intention of qualifying for Kona. On the ST forum, it's common to see complaints that IM has an indifferent approach to customer service, that it cares more about money than athletes. The fact that this announcement was made after hundreds of athletes already signed up to race in Kona is likely to feed fuel to critics' fire. How do you respond to those critiques?

From the interview:

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By listening to the end consumers complaints and adjust the business model for customer success.
But wait IM is sorta monopoly as it’s the most popular tri races world wide , so why they should care in answering.

Yeppers. Threw him soft balls

Ryan: my life has been substantially enhanced by my experiences with Ironman through the years. Some of my and my family’s most cherished experiences have revolved around the 30+ Ironman branded races that I and my son have participated in through the years including 4 wonderful trips to Kona. It has been a very positive force in my life that has helped me to lead a healthy, productive and happy life.

I’ve also had the privilege of getting to know many of the WTC employees personally and have been consistently impressed by their passion for our sport, their pride in their company and what they do, and the quality of the service that they have generally provided. While, I don’t know him well, in the several interactions I’ve had with Andrew, he has struck me as a reasonable business man who listens and understands the passion that we all have for this great sport. I also thought he was dealt an almost impossible hand with CoVid and he has admirably guided his company through this tough time and they have continued to put on many incredible events.

Further, I’ve frequently thought that many of the criticisms leveled against the company here on slowtwitch seemed unbalanced and on some occasions were based on a foundation of incomplete facts and a poor understanding of how capitalism, larger businesses, and the investment community work. Many Ironman haters view the company through a set point of view and will always find fault and infrequently find merit.

That said, what has happened with this situation seems like a set of extremely poor and in some cases unnecessary business decisions that have alienated a large part of the Ironman ecosystem including Kona residents, many loyal volunteers through the years that are now very upset, and many Pro and Age Group athletes that make their business possible. This may very well be a existential crisis for the company that they will either learn from and pivot to a brighter future or will be an inflection point that will not allow them to continue to be the company they aspire to be. There are many alternative entities that are for sure plotting how to make the later happen. I also think the Board must be taking notice of this and discussing if they need to intervene in a major way.

What really puzzles me is why ST, which has always been, in my view, the pinnacle of rationality, seems to be jumping in front of this nightmare train for no apparent reason. WTC has really made a mess of this. A very large number of ST’s loyal constituents have expressed outrage over how this has unfolded over the last two-three years, and not just the haters, but it seems that ST has circled the wagons and is now reflexively defensive, when I would have expected ST to continue its long history of balanced objectivity. I worry that ST is following down the same alienating path that Ironman is currently on. There is a lot of legitimate negativity here that doesn’t seem like it’s being addressed well by either IM or ST…


Having said all of this, I recognize that I have neither the facts, experience nor industry relationships that you all have. (And as an aside, I had my knee replaced yesterday and my brain is probably scrambled a bit by the pain and meds). But I find this all quite puzzling.

My apologies if my comments are unfair or misinformed. They are intended as respectful thoughts about two organizations I have admired deeply…

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

I think a better question is how many people on the other thread actually will qualify for World Championships in the current window.

Anyone else needs to back away. It is only impacting those people that can actually qualify and will miss doing Kona in 2023.

I also havent read any comments from Kona qualified women that are upset about this either

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it doesnt matter what you say, someone on here will pick a fight over it.

Very fair point. The only person I know who is qualified is an athlete I coach and he’s debating racing Nice or wait 2024 but not upset at all. Not a climber and not a good descender so worried about Nice.

Ultimately, here's where I sit on the matter.

1.) My reading of the tea leaves is that, well, IM got told they could have a two day race by Hawaii, up until they got told (after the race this year) that that was no longer on the table, no matter how much negotiation IM was offered.

2.) That puts IM in the unenviable position of either:
a.) pulling back on the number of slots they had on offer to revert to a single day race;
b.) ripping everything out of Kona;
c.) coming up with the solution being architected here.

Ultimately I think this is the best of those bad decisions. You think men who registered for Kona would be outraged...what about the women who flocked to races with WFT slots now being told "on second thought, those don't exist?" It's for the first time, really, men are being inconvenienced by IM decisions.

But if we're really looking for the root issue -- IMO, everyone's directing their anger in the wrong direction.

3.) As said elsewhere in this thread -- it's my understanding that it was not until very recently that IM was made aware that Kona was full bore no-go. I think that they've been working for a while on potential alternatives while still holding out hope that they could come to a two day in Kona resolution. In retrospect, I think they'd like to have potentially made an announcement along the lines pre-November races of "all WCs for 2023 TBD, slots will be allocated via email once determined." But I also think that they honestly thought they'd get to an amicable solution with Kona for two days by now versus what we're seeing the last few days.

4.) As I stated elsewhere -- we have written about athletes needing to be flexible with building travel plans -- when women's races were changed in St George, through COVID, etc. I didn't think that was a particularly pressing question given we did the same line of questioning last year.

5.) I think a *lot* of the issue is the lack of confirmation on the final actual location. Which is understandable.

I don't think IM was going to win no matter what they did.

I appreciate your feedback. I do find it somewhat amusing that people seem to not remember my exploits from 2015, which ultimately led to me working for Slowtwitch. I guess it makes me about as balanced as I can be when it comes with IM.

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They could totally do this. And charge $6000 to race in Kona.

Would those complaining then be happy as the tradition of racing Kona as the World Championships would continue?

Ironman as a business would make money. And those wanting the World Championships to stay in Kona would get what they want.

But we all know, the same people would complain and expect entry to be cheaper. Most likely people that cant qualify anyway.

Splitting is the best option for all.

Ironman makes money as a business. Tick.
Athletes can still race in Kona. Tick.

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it doesnt matter what you say, someone on here will pick a fight over it.

I think that’s very fair Ryan and I appreciate your transparency. The thing that I think WTC is missing is that some formerly very loyal customers no longer believe what they are saying on many important issues. There are many examples in this and the other thread (and others) so I won’t belabor them here. I think it’s a mistake to generally ignore some very reasonable concerns (and some very unreasonable concerns) that their customer have raised which it feels like they are increasingly doing. I think this is a potentially dangerous path for IM. It feels different now…

When I was in school (back in the 1800s) we studied a bunch of corporate communication crises and this current IM controversy feels like some of them. Sometimes, it’s better to be more of a fellow human recognizing the anger, confusion, disappointment and empathetically engage in a messier conversation where you demonstrate that you hear the complaints and that you may have may have made some mistakes than corporate executives delivering well prepared, soothing, but ultimately unhearing corporate talking points.

The litmus test is whether or not the anger, confusion, etc is really addressed and if the customers are ultimately willing to grant a pass and stay customers. IM has been such a positive to me for so long I’ll continue to give that pass because they earned it in the past. I’m worried that many will not and this might get away from them.

I sincerely hope this won’t happen. It would be a shame because IM is the heart and soul of our sport….

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

I think IM recognizes that they had a bit of a credibility problem here, just given how much the rumor mill was already churning before the tri-today.com report. It's why they gave Andrew media availability today to talk through some of it.

Ultimately, I think one of the things that we have to also recognize, beyond the customer side, is that there are humans on the IM side having to make decisions that they know are going to be deeply unpopular or cause pain to their consumers. It's a thankless task, made even more difficult by the fact that this is, by and large, an event that many people define themselves by.

My takeaway is that -- they hear you. They're hurt, too -- I don't think they ever wanted to have IMWC's outside of Hawaii. I think they got the raw end of the deal out of the County after being told "yep, you're good to go forward."

It's going to be an interesting couple of years.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Ultimately, I think one of the things that we have to also recognize, beyond the customer side, is that there are humans on the IM side having to make decisions that they know are going to be deeply unpopular or cause pain to their consumers. It's a thankless task, made even more difficult by the fact that this is, by and large, an event that many people define themselves by.

Having worked at IM for a handful of years, I can attest that there are humans on their side, but I can 100% guarantee you, all they care about is revenue, profit, and not loosing their own jobs. They don't care about the communities, the sponsors, the athletes, their fellow employees. I know personal friends still there at the VP level and they had no clue about what has transpired the last few days. These decisions were made by a very small group of folks (one of whom should be fired for leaking this story) based on personal ass-saving tactics and how can they as individuals show to ownership how much more revenue they are able to generate. And not to belabor it but shame on Andrew for announcing in July that the 2-day format would be back in 2023. I have 0 trust in this organization and I would not put it past them to move the men's race out of Kona in 2024 and F those already registered/qualified/ etc. again. And guess what? They don't care.

You had me in that first half of your post, I will give you that :) But still, I agree with you overall and appreciate that post.
My only "but" is that I think we are overestimating the loud voice of the "nay-sayers" or haters of these decisions from WTC.

WTC / IM has a very good daily indicator, which tells them how well they market their product and their company (and decision to make changes to same)
That is simply just "Number of daily race sign-ups", i.e. the demand of their product. I do not know this number or trend for same, but my impression is that it is going well, it is on the rise. They are beating the competition.

Hence, as a business, you will recognize that YES, there are some negative voices out there, but overall you are still on the right track decision-wise and the money-machine (which is what a privately held company always is) is doing well.

The old "guard" of hardcore, ripped KQs is pissed (incl. myself) that Kona is loosing its magic (let´s say that is a max of 1000 AGs & Pros), but the general AG public, those 100000s AGs who pays the bills, are silently happy and buying more WTC / IM.

Just my 2c

“I think they got the raw end of the deal out of the County after being told "yep, you're good to go forward."“

Sorry, not buying it. This is 100% the result of Ironmans push for clearly unsustainable growth in the location.

It didn’t take a rocket scientist to look at Kona this year and say “this isn’t gonna work long term.” But that didn’t keep IM from their “commitment” to not “going backwards.”

If IM wanted to keep the race in Kona, they could. They chose not to. Truthfully, they made that decision long before Kona told them they would only allow a 1 day race.

Whether it’s a good business decision or not remains to be seen. But don’t act like Kona made the decision for them. That’s what bothered me most in the article… don’t let IM point fingers. You make a decision, own it!

Here is (IMO) a good read on the topic from Tri247

Not surprised that Mark Allen is between "meh" and supporting his employer ...

I too don’t understand why people take what he says at face value.

Messick is saying, in effect, “we had a deal with Kona and were screwed over”. It might not even be true. It could be “20% true”, as in “the mayor said he would do his best to keep the two day format and we had to start selling slots so we assumed he’d get it done”.

I understand that Ryan and Messick are on a good footing and I don’t want to be too harsh, but one problem that doesn’t exactly evoke trust is that Ironman were forced to come out with their statement by a leak and the Tri Today article. People were booking flights and rooms and buying qualification race entries and committing financially in other ways while Messick was already aware there might be a problem with the venue. Almost as if some IM employees had reached out to Tri Today out of exasperation as they were watching people be deceived (this is solely speculation on my part! But that’s the impression and it weighs on his credibility).

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

that is very different than saying we had singend a contract for a 2023 2 day event .... which is the usal time ironman announces venues.

This was my take as well. That article forced their hand. They had no intentions making the announcement this week. It’s scary to think that they would have likely waited another 4-8 weeks and how many more races to say anything publicly. Messick’s comment on wanting to let the athletes know is bs. He got caught with his pants down and this is him trying to save face. And he did a pretty poor job at it. He would gain a ton of respect for me and he just came out and said… “we screwed up”.

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blog

So well written Randy.

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member CupCake Cartel

I think it’s fair to say that they got forced to act by a more reputable source (remember, Tri-Today was probably the first site with sources — everything else was “we’re hearing” or “rumor”). And I think it a fair critique that they should have had something out along the lines of “we are working through logistics of the 2023 IM World Championships. During this time we would recommend not booking travel, especially non-refundable items.”

And, well, the media availability with Andrew probably should have been *before*, not after, the release. Because I understand why it looks like they’re in full blown CYA mode.

That all being said—it is a standard, customary practice within race production to open registration when you have preliminary agreements in place (whether verbal or written). As other places have reported—IM had that in July, 2022 for 2023 when announcing the qualification cycle. (That’s also been confirmed by other sources not named Messick.)

But I also think Messick’s in a delicate spot there. He can’t say “they screwed us!” unless they decide to rip everything out of there—still need to be able to go back and work with this team. And I believe them to be cognizant of how important Kona is. But ultimately, do you:

a.) piss off everyone who registered for races with the expectation of there being two days worth of slots, or
b.) piss off those already registered for Worlds

And, well, they chose B.

I think they expected a deeply unpopular initial response. And I don’t think it’s wrong to say that they wish they had a mulligan on timing. But I also think they did everything they reasonably could to keep it in Kona—including splitting the race dates by six months. Kona wouldn’t play ball.

And yes I am in total agreement with Messick—they couldn’t go back to one day. Too much earned media with Sodaro. Too much work around Women For Tri. I think we’d see far more outrage media from that decision.

It is interesting that, in other forums, this decision is being praised—particularly in women’s only groups and those that are more Euro-centric

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You'd think after the past couple years, folks would have clued in to this. But no, they book the cheapest non refundable airbnb and airfare they can find and then bitch and moan when shit goes sideways, regardless of why.

I may be wrong and somebody please confirm/correct me if I am but it's my memory that the mayor was at the IM banquet in Kona and confirmed the two days there also.

I’m not sure I fully understand this angle. Will this actually be good for women and get them more viewership and also increase IM’s overall participation/viewership? History from other sports would indicate the viewing will be lopsided and everyone will tune in to the men’s race and forget about the women’s, especially with the races being in different months rather than same weekend, netting them even less exposure and attention than with the traditional formats.

Maybe it’s just me but if the goal is to get more women to compete or have more attention/ad revenue etc. drawn that way, the blunt force approach doesn’t actually work if the attention isn’t going to go that way naturally.

I enjoy watching the women’s side of the sport and want to see it so well, maybe I just don’t understand how things work, but separating the races from a gender aspect feels like a fast track to unintended consequences to me.

1.) I believe this is why it was critical that the women's race was in Kona for year 1. It gets the historic date and venue. We, as journalists, have an obligation to tell more / better stories out of that experience. It's different. It forces us to be different.

2.) We're just going to have to find out in terms of viewership. The numbers towards the end of the women's race on Thursday were about as strong as they were at any point on Saturday for the men -- which leads me to think that by giving them a proper Saturday race date, you'll see better engagement.

Will there be unintended consequences? Maybe. As I told Dan on the phone the other day, this has an opportunity to be a broader "Title IX" moment for the sport, especially in places where there, in theory, *should* be more female participation. But we'll see.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

2.) That puts IM in the unenviable position of either:
a.) pulling back on the number of slots they had on offer to revert to a single day race;


In my opinion, this would have been the fairest solution. Then 2024 onwards come up with whatever new solution they find optimal and communicate that in time for people to make informed decisions.

I don't think that's particularly fair to the thousands of customers who had chosen races based on prior slot allocation -- which is, just doing some back of the napkin math, a larger cohort than those who had already claimed slots (and the subset of those that may have already made travel arrangements).

Ultimately I think keeping two days was the better of the bad options when trying to satisfy the most number of customers.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Does he know that all economy fares are non refundable? Or has he lost completely touch with reality? Does he expect every athlete to fly business to Hawaii?

I fly main cabin, for the most part, on Delta. I have middling status with them. But I can cancel a flight and still retain credit on that airline to fly to another destination. I might get dinged for a change fee, but I can still take that money I already paid and apply it to another trip. It's what we're doing for our week in Utah -- we had ~$750 in flight credits from a separate cancelled trip to burn up so we're flying Delta with the baggage fee less than what we'd normally do (fly Southwest).

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Never ever happened to be on intercontinental flights. And I fly lot. On domestic ones, yes, and maybe in that case they should state in the t&c that athletes should always book non refundable flights

I have the solution:
1 day event in kona, 2500 athletes, $2000 registration fee. IM makes the same money as in 2022 and only have to handle one event, overall profit increase ;-)

In terms of numbers maybe, in terms of doing a shitty thing I disagree. Changing something that is promised and agreed and you have already made arrangements for vs changing some speculative easier Q-slot, I have to say I disagree (btw. were the slots allocations per race already announced even).

Anyway, interesting experiment. From my perspective losing the allure of Kona, splitting the fields and high cost of entry (if that is kept) I find really hard to believe that WC in other locations would be very attractive. Say, doing Nice as WC vs. just doing IM Nice, not sure if I would be willing to pay any thing extra for the WC. But maybe, IM should have better grasp of their clientele than I.

Obviously that is just from my perspective, I never in any race felt like I was competing against anybody in particular (just myself) so competing was never a reason to go to Kona, so it must've been the allure/mythos/whatever. I was thinking there would many (like 80% of the WC fields) like me, but I can of course be completely wrong.

The main issue in my view is that declaring today that you should have booked non refundable (if the option even exists) represents an ex post change of the terms and conditions we all accepted when we paid for the race, and opens up Ironman to legal liability for the financial hit to so many people. Not for me to involve lawyers (have got no time for that) but trust me, somebody will!

Yes, slot allocations at all the events had been previously announced.

I know that both my wife and I had made our decision on our racing calendar off of those slot allocations.

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I respect your opinion, but I think you're being too charitable to IM.

There are two questions I would raise. First, why are you taking IM completely at its word? IM is making it sound like it did everything possible to stay in Kona, but the locals changed their mind and reneged on their (informal) agreement to have a two-day race in 2023. "Blame the powers that be in Kona"-- that's the message. As others have pointed out, we have no idea if that is true. For all we know, Kona authorities were more equivolcal about 2023; more "we'll see" than "yes". Did any local official ever state publicly that 2023 was a go? Did IM ever get any kind of agreement on paper?

Second, why didn't IM communicate the uncertainty to its customers who were already paying money and planning for Kona? IM talks about how it lives in Kona and is closely connected to the community, so it had to know that a two-day event in 2022 could be a straw breaking the camel's back. There is 0.0 chance that it was surprised that Kona said "no". Given that IM had no formal agreement and knew it was pushing the limits of what the community would accept, the prudent move would have been to communicate more honestly and openly with its customer base. All those who KQed before the announcement should have been told they were signing up for a WC in a TBD location.

The last thing I'll point out is that this kind of action is not new to IM. My own similar experience occurred with IMTX in 2021. All winter there were rumors and signs that Montgomery County was not going to grant a permit for the bike course given its COVID restrictions. It was pretty clear that an IM field exceeded permissible numbers for a gathering. That whole time we heard not a word from IM (other than the constant emails encouraging us to buy something). They just kept indicating "the race is on". Then, about six weeks before the race we get notice that the race is cancelled because the county wouldn't grant a permit. Same playbook-- "sorry guys, we did everything we could, but Houston screwed us".

Was it the end of the world? No. But it sure sucked to train and book travel for a race that was unlikely to occur. As is the case with the Kona move, the more customer friendly approach would have been to communicate the uncertainty and give people the option to go elsewhere much earlier. But that's not how IM operates. Why? Because for all intents and purposes IM is a monopoly. It does what it can, not what it should.

So, Messick learned that a handshake deal is worth the paper it's written on

No. He learned that a paper deal (contract) is more valuable than a simple handshake.

Here's Tri247's hard hitting Q&A:
https://www.tri247.com/...kona-plan-fell-apart
Messick
“expectation [a pretty high bar before we made the announcement and before we started qualifying athletes to a two-day Kona ] in July: two days of racing in 2023

“We thought we had a plan . . . we did have a lot of belief. So clear position going into Kona in October

“during Kona week . . the Mayor was fairly candid with the real-time feedback that he was getting
. . . a lot of pressure right now.

"the amount of feedback we were getting from the community was a lot more than we had expected.

"for any race community anywhere in the world, there is a balance between the economic benefits and the social benefits of a race and the inconvenience that the constituents and the members of that community feel

[By late October] "It was clear that two days simply wasn’t an option in Kona in 2023."
Find out how the next six weeks panned out and what options were weighed up before this week’s announcement in part two of the interview

Sounds to me like you were too busy interviewing a best friend (or wanting to be best friends) to ask the hard questions that your readers were expecting.

Don't accept this as anything other than a smart business decision. They know the men's field will sell out no matter where it is. They want the women in Kona this year to drive the increase in entries they sell in qualifier races, where they'll have 500 slots or something.

I’d like to know what questions you wanted asked.

The 30 mins consisted of:
2 mins of off the record catching up on family stuff (first time we’ve talked in 18+ months)
25 mins which produced the front page interview (transcribed while on the call)
3 mins of confidential talk.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Messick puts the entire weight of the decision that the 2-day format does not work in, and for, Kona on the local government. What work/research does WTC do to determine capacity? What responsibility does WTC have, as the leading triathlon steward, to do some research and come up with racing plans that are sustainable for the communities they are guests in?

I wonder what other governmental figures that host IM brand races are thinking about their relationship with WTC after reading Messick's responses in this situation. I imagine that their thinking, "if things don't go right here, we're going to get the blame."

I recognize that conducting interviews is difficult and I don’t think ST asked softball questions. I would like to see IM confronted with some of the criticisms that are commonly expressed.

I posted a sample question earlier in this thread, but in general I am curious as to how he’d answer a question like, “How would you respond to your critics that say X?”.

Maybe he’d give a standard answer along the lines “we did the best we could”, but maybe he’d say something like “We recognize that some athletes are not 100% satisfied with X and we acknowledge we can do better. We’re doing Y to try to improve in this area”.

I know that I’d feel better about IM if there was at least an acknowledgment that it has some agency and/or could have handled the Kona announcement better. The sense I have had is that IM is almost playing the victim: “all we wanted was to let the women shine and we thought we could do that but then Kona yanked the rug out from under us and we had no choice”.

The one question that I had on my list, that didn't get asked simply due to time, was "what would you say to the athletes who had already qualified expecting to go to Kona?"

But I'd also thought that he'd kind of expressed that sentiment around how they'd need to break the promise of everyone in Kona, and that they'd really had a hard time deciding which of the two promises (Kona vs two days) they were going to split off of.

Appreciate your feedback, though.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Messick should have just told Kona to suck it up and accept a two day event or he would yank the race and walk to where they will do it.

The reason why St. George was not desirable was Kona was on deck later. With Kona on deck every two years the other year elsewhere event becomes less desirable. If you moved it all to Nice or St. George or Frankfurt or wherever the value of the location would grow and everyone will forget Kona in a few years

The sport is bigger than Kona

I think the town would have told him to go pound sand.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Yeah, a zero sum approach would have likely resulted in Kona fully rejecting IM, which based on the 70% or so that think Kona is the heart and soul of IM, would have been a disastrous outcome.

I think the result, despite the slight pain felt by those who pre-paid non refundable stuff (why on earth anyone would do that after the last 3 years is beyond me), is the best outcome for the sport considering. Kona still sits right in the center and it also allows a better race location to bring higher quality racing for many every other year.

I am very excited by this change, as I raced Kona 3x and found it to be my absolute least favourite race (even compared to IMTX 2018).

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

It's funny I know folks who feel exactly like you do and I'm the opposite. I've done it 3 times and I only do an IM to get a spot to race in Kona. Also all my friends say the same about IMTX as you and yet I still signed up for it, LOL.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

1000% agreed on this dev. There is more to this sport than kona. Everyone always talks about history. But the younger generation cares less and less about history as the years tick on. And they are the future. The sport does not need Kona.

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blog

Zero chance that would have happened. Some locals may hate it but the businesses that profit speak loudest and they’d have the towns ear.

Agreed Dev that the sport is bigger than Kona, but not necessarily IRONMAN the company. If they walk away completely from Kona I think a) they lose some prestige and b) another company could go in and run an IronDistance race there and steal customers from IRONMAN the company.

Yes some people at first will still want to race their races because at the moment they are seen as holders of the World Champion Title, but that mantle could easily change to a) PTO or b) Challenge or c) whoever is running a full distance triathlon in Hawaii (Kona).

Tri247's John Levison had a go (Tri247):
"Asked how much of that is a business decision, Messick turned the question around a little" - good euphemism.
https://www.tri247.com/...n-kona-why-the-split
Asked about 'whether Nice' he said "I can’t really talk about this, but look, this all had to come together pretty quickly. Our focus was on communities with whom we had relationships and confidence and trust."
So reasonable to infer that the men's WC 2023 will be at an established IM race venue (signs point to Nice, but whatever). What are the other options in late September in Europe? Has to be 2 weeks before 14 Oct (2 week gap for logistic if no other reasons) and 2 weeks after is too late (weather/temperature risk).

I’m not sure they would. I recall reading a newspaper article when I did IMTX saying that event was one of the larger money makers for that community each year. That amazed me to see the economic impact ironman had on a community. But, Houston (and surrounding communities) are not a known tourist destination, whereas Hawaii is, so they effect may be quite different. Still, IM coming to Kona every October has to be a massive economic gain for the Kona area (for many)

Ryan: quick follow up. I know most of the focus is on the move of the race from Kona and whether or not that’s a good thing. This is understandable, given how central and special Kona is to our sport. At a personal level, it really doesn’t bother me. I understand why they had to do it and why it’s probably net/net better for IM and maybe the sport. Change always creates tensions with those that cherish tradition. For me I’m all for it, but I’d probably get upset if 2023 was going to be my first Kona and given I was lucky enough to have had the privilege of racing there before, my pov on this topic maybe isn’t as relevant as many posting here.

That said, my issue is with what IM is saying in a number of areas related to this and how some really hardcore triathletes and the local Kona community are hearing it. For example, in your interview IM talks about how much the Kona team worked with the community to help them prepare for the new 2-day format yet you have the senior police folks complaining about the last minute notice and how that created significant challenges for the community. Further I know folks that are senior in the volunteer community and the 2-day format was “news” to them, especially the part about it being for both 22 and 23 (a typical comment I heard was it may not work, why announce your doing it for 2 years?).

For me, it might have been better for IM to say that it did not do a good enough job of prepping the local community and that they own at least part of the negative reaction from the community….

I think this (and similar disconnects) may be impacting their credibility and that’s the issue I’m more concerned about. I could be over reacting and it frankly it may not have made any difference with respect to this issue.

I always believed that IM was different and that it operated at a higher plane from a relationship with the community perspective….I worry that I may have been guilty of seeing everything through those rose colored glasses and if lots of folks have similar reactions it might be bad for the company. This is my core concern.

Does that make any sense or am I once again missing something?

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

With as much assistance a race needs and works w community (volunteers/police/ems), you actually think a race and organization of that magnitude wouldn’t let the police in on “oh yeah it’s 2 days this year Thur Sat”.

I ain’t buying that part of the story from the police side.

This race basically shuts down the island and you think the police didn’t know it was 2 day event.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Triathlete article talking about how the 2 day ‘22 event planned out….starting post StG with an 4-5 month lead time.

The first step was going to the county, the mayor, and the local agencies to ask for their support,” Frey says. “They knew we had this backlog of athletes. But they also knew the economic impact of this race, so we got the support from them right away.”

https://www.triathlete.com/...nd-bigger-than-ever/

(Posting from phone so sorry if link isn’t active)

This sounds like revisionist history so that the 2 day race is all the fault of IM. It completely sounds like the island balked on the future of a 2 day race, whether there was already a contract/handshake deal/ verbal deal / or TBD. Which is understandable if rumors are correct I think the mayor sat in traffic on Thur for over 2 hours. Like I can totally see why they wanted to bail on the idea. The fault I place on IM is awarding KQ slots to athletes seemingly knowing that wasn’t a done deal for 23. Now that’s not a ton of athletes affected but it’s still bad biz practice.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yeah, that thought crossed my mind as well…seems a bit crazy.

That said, I think it does tell you something about the relationship between IM and the Kona police. In my experience, relationships tend to be two-way streets.

I’ve tended to reflexively defend IM as well, but I thought it worth noting because it does make me wonder (when I really haven’t before), which is the main point I’m making.

While I don’t know the police in question, I do have some long, personal relationships with some sr. volunteer folks and they expressed surprise and confusion and I can not think of any reason they would be making things up.

Respectful question: do you think IM has no or very limited blame here and things happened to them that they had no control/influence of? That was my position in October. I’m questioning my position now….maybe it’s just my issue though! (I’m still on some pretty heavy meds post knee!)

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Why does there have to blame anywhere?

Why can’t we just say the island can’t sustain a 2 day event that supports IM’s needs. End of story

Whether the police had enough notice or not, they were stretched thin, the volunteer situation was a mess, the “hatred” whether exaggerated or not is real. I just think it’s hard to believe that PTB in this were “surprised” that ‘22 Kona was a 2 day event. My bullshit meter ain’t buying that.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I have to agree with this. They moved the date of Worlds in Abu Dhabi after I'd booked my original hotel and flight... stuff happens that you can't control. Don't book anything non-refundable if you can avoid it at all. Also, given what I've heard of scarcity there, I would imagine anyone who's booked accommodation in Kona should be able to transfer it to another athlete.

Sorry for the choice of words. Stuff happened. What caused it?

If I hear you right, you are saying there was no way Kona would ever support two days. It is what it is.

Fine. How do you know that?

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

this may be the way to sanity.

we could make a list as long as my arm of IM's sins, but maybe this latest development is just ... one of those things that happens. it's outgrown the small island in the middle of the ocean. things have changed.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I'm with you, but have only done it twice. Deferred my spot this year in FL because fitness wasn't there to KQ and now I'm not terribly excited to race there. If I qualify I likely won't go to WC anywhere else. I'd far prefer doing a Challenge race elsewhere in the world, where I don't get the feeling I'm being used for my cash and treated like an annuity. I've already signed up for a Euro Challenge race for next year and I KNOW it will be far less expensive than the inflated costs IM brings to a race.

I also hear of some stating how much fair to have the same number of women go. Why? They are a far smaller number in the sport and obviously the overall field will be far less in ability. Perhaps they've realized the success of USAT/ITU WC races where the quality of the TeamUSA athletes is a joke. For sure, DNF and not making cutoffs will soar in the larger women's field at Kona; is that a real plus for the sport?????

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Kiwami Racing Team

IM has simply put grown the 2500 1 day Kona. If it wants to go back to that to have all parties together but it just seems logical that 2 days is just too much of a burden on the island. (Or at least 2 days in a very short time period)

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

What do they say about history? It’s written by the winners.

The island and locals “won” and kicked out big bad IM brand from their 2 day event. I don’t believe for a second that IM was lacking in communication or X PTB was suddenly “surprised” that it was 2 days instead of the normal 1 day. I even would wager there was an “agreement” prior to this event and then post event, after reviewing it, funny how the locals were loudest with “wait a minute we don’t have ‘23 squared away yet”.

And I don’t think it has failed because IM’s lack of communication or triathletes are suddenly tri snobs.

I think the island simply wants no part of 2 days after actually going through with it and IM has to kinda save the relationship so in fact they are the ones bending the knee. I actually thought IM would tell Kona to pound sound instead of the other way, event wagered $1k but no one would take me up on it.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Without the race one can even actually travel to Kailua Kona. I'm sure glad I don't have rental property there as rates will plummet without the race. Long term, did the locals actually win?

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Kiwami Racing Team

Fair enough!

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

You call that an interview?

I’d guess a lot of people who own the condos aren’t locals.

Agreed but,


They don't need to go back 15 years just go back to what it was before this year
Meaning the (pre covid) 2019 race which had 2368 athletes

It's Hawaii
A limited quantity
Rentals rates plummet without a 1 or 2 days race???
Rents & pretty much everything else is expensive 365 days a year in Hawaii

Understood; but the cash cow may be gone, so rates back to normal. Also, you think just 1 or 2 day rentals? How many travel and train there for longer periods. Similar to IMWI here in Madison, there are many people who rent and travel to train on site. Kill the race, those are gone. Frankly, it's a tiny community with little other than coffee plantations up the hill. Better waves and tourist spots on other locales and other islands. The golden calf of Ironman brings quite a bump in the economy; not just on that day.

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Kiwami Racing Team

Here are some questions you could have asked:

Why were you selling hundreds of slots to races less than two weeks before you announced there would not be a men’s race in 2023? You must have known by then there was a very good chance it wasn’t happening.

You told everyone there would be a two day Kona in 2023. Given the exorbitant costs for attendees in 2022, wouldn’t it be prudent for athletes to make plans early? Couldn’t you have forewarned them that you did not have a binding contract?

You claimed in the Tri 24/7 interview that you had a great plan for dealing with inconveniences of Kona locals in 2022. In hindsight, did your team do a poor job managing traffic and other logistical issues?

Over a four year period, pro and AG men will have had one opportunity to race in Kona. Have you and your team failed in any of your basic job requirements, as evidenced by this?

Please describe how your new owners prioritize maximizing profits relative to serving as stewards of this sport.

How should your owners assess your job performance?

Do you believe your actions expose you to a class action lawsuit?

I think what gets me is not that they likely can lawyer it up to win against any lawsuits. It's the fact that they put their own customers in that situation to begin with. Like if I was Messick, I would be beyond embarrassed to the point of making sure they took care of those customers, even if they dont *have too*.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I understand why someone would think that but truth is it is a drop in a big bucket

For instance this is first year they had 5k competitors but lets use that more than double average as a base
5000 athletes & say they each & everyone has 5 additional support with them That is 5k+25,000 = 30,000 visitors
Yes some come early to acclimate...support/viewers don't

The Big Island gets 100,000 to 175,000 a month not even counting the summer hump

Trust me I agree Kona is nothing special & I always wondered why tourists love it but they do.
It is also why some of the most expensive resorts chose that coast with its abundance of sunshine. Unlike Hilo where you rust hahah
But for sheer beauty the oldest island of Kaui is much more beautiful IMHO

I hope Ironman continues as it always did in Hawaii. I remember the Oahu days & being in my VW bug behind riders thinking WTH?? :)

Move it & someone will quickly fill that void under a new name & folks will come it is the Original Ironman & that does resonate with many

.
If it isn't an M-Dot event it will fail. The Ironman Cult is strong.

I think Ironman (WTC) has a window right now where they could have just walked from Kona entirely. This is because Ironman is stronger than PTO or Challenge. In ONE year, PTO nor Challenge would be able to cut a deal with Kona to put on a "world championship" there, with a qualifying series. It would just be a crappy backfill race like Challenge Penticton after Penticton effectively booted Ironman out.

Then by next year, Kona would come back begging to Ironman. I am sure St. George or Nice could easily be the two day event in 2023...by 2024, Kona would come back begging for the 2 day event. Guaranteed. Or we find out that we no Kona on deck, a 2 day worlds elsewhere takes off.

We have precedent. Most of you are forgetting that Ironman was on Oahu, not Kona. Oahu had the "history". Now everyone has forgotten about Oahu. It barely took a few years before we moved onto Kona. Move it elsewhere and we will forget about Kona. It is not the venue, it is the people that make the event.

Remember, Walter O'Malley moved the Brooklyn Dodgers out of NY to LA. If that can be done, this is easy. This sport is way beyond a town on an island that really does not want us.

I love it in Kona, but time has moved on. It is like when a couple grow apart because the aims of each have diverged. Sometimes it is better to cut ties.

Do you really think Messick would answer a question asking any CEO if his actions expose his company to a class action lawsuit? Of course Ryan can't ask that but everyone is free to drum people up to do that.

As for only one opp for men in 4 years, that is convenient question anking. The right question is 1 opp for men in two years since we can't count the other two. The answer Messick can give this, "over time we offered something like 80,000 men the chance to race in Kona and only 20,000 women....this is our way of making it right...we have to start somewhere and the time is now. The guys can be patient, we can't make it all happen for everyone and for the last 40 years we prioritized men".

Oxygen Addict podcast interview which reiterates info already shared.
Roth: "We like ONE day (a Saturday)." "Do you want me to say that again/"
"We will [reveal men's venue] in Early January."