Yes.
Do it!
Im going to try as well; I just turned 52. Buddy of mine clocked a 4:48 and his is a big guy that is 53.
Weight is going to play in...try to keep your weight as low as you can; and being older means more recovery, and less volume if you want to hit the marks and stay injury free (or so I have found). My 'favorite' ramp up is 12 x 400 on 65 or better (at least try to shoot for that) with a 200 or so rest...it sucks; but it is a great telltale.

Stephen J

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I've run 4:54 and doing 2x2 mile at 5:20 pace sounds like a workout I might not have been able to complete. For reference my open 5k was around 17:45-18:00 at the time I did a handful of 4:55-5:00 miles in T&F.

Are you going to train specifically for this?

I’m the opposite of you, I’m a diesel. At that time I could run 5:20 all day but the equivalent 400s or 800s would wreck me.

E

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Ouch, that sounds hard. I really don't have the speed.

E

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At some point I will have to, but I have an IM this fall.

There was a time that I felt like I could be in year round 5min mile shape with my tri training but not anymore.

E

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Who is your buddy? That is rarefied air at age 53. Would put him top two or three nationally 50-55 age group (for people who run track).

I was a miler in my college days during track season. I don't remember doing large volumes of weekly mileage (40-65mpw), but we did do a lot of fast track work in spikes (200m to 800m repeats), and hill repeat after hill repeat. Once you get towards the pointy end of the stick, I believe the mile is all about top end and muscular endurance. 400m to 1200m hill repeats were a great way to get whipped into good mile shape. Once you're in shape, pacing becomes key. I couldn't crack 4:10 until I stopped going out so fast and learned to pace the first 800m.

My guess is no, you won't be able to do it because the mile was not your specialty when you were young. Malcom Gladwell ran 5:17 at the age of 57 in a celebrity match last year:

Oh snap, that’s like the Oprah of marathon times.

Will have to bear Gladwell.

E

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Yes, know plenty of 50 year olds who have gotten there & even gone quite a bit faster.

FWIW Gladwell was 57 as it says in the video & hadn't been doing a lot of training for that particular run. He also ran fast in his college days so I would actually say that result should be seen as encouraging. His talent hasn't gone away. Someone who is willing to train & just turned 50 has a good shot.

Thanks!

E

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For me at 53 i am not sure i could get the speed back to do it. My endurance is good but speed seems to be departing as i get older.
Works out to 3:08 per km i think. How do i get all these pacers that Gladwell had?
I will be impressed if you can do it. MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!!

I agree - the guys who are running sub 5:00 at 50plus are almost all old track guys who were running sub 4:15 in their heyday. There are outliers for sure, but to PR in the mile at 50 under 5:00 is very unlikely.

A 5:00 min mile at 50 is age graded to about a 4:22. If you didn't have the capability to run a 4:22 at your best, then it would be very tough to get there now in my opinion.

Similar background here, so I'm delighted to confirm this is entirely correct.

Specificity is key, so be prepared-both emotionally and physically-to spend some time on the track running repeats.

I'm the same vintage and think this is an audacious but achievable mark-good luck!

The real trick is avoiding injury with this type of training. Short, fast intervals are no one's friend after 50.

I hope there's a typo in here somewhere, because that workout as written is insane. For context, I'm currently running 15:50ish for the 5k (and think I could do a 4:38ish mile right now), and there's no way I could do that. 200 jog? Nope. 200 walk? Probably not. 2min standing rest? Maybe. A 400 rep in 65 is probably pushing 800m pace for most people near to a 5 flat mile, and 3 or 4 reps at that pace with 3 or 4 minute rest is brutal.

Now, if you're talking 75 as target pace with 200m walk or between 60 and 90 seconds standing rest, that's more realistic for a 5:00 miler. I'd still bet that most people without a lot of recent time spent at high speed would still struggle with 12 reps and are better off nailing the pace and only doing 8 to 10.

Using the WMA age-grading calculator a 5:00 mile for a 50 year old scores an age-performance % of 84.83 while a 10:40 2-mile scores an age-performance % of 84.78. Since you did 2 x 2 miles at that pace recently (I assume) I think you should be able to run a 5:00 mile in September.

This is a very very tough workout for a five minute miler. and it is something only a very few could do in their 50s. However, it sounds like Stephenj runs in fast company (his buddy is a 4:48 guy at 53), so he may be at the pointy end!

Not sure wether you Can pull it off or not, But if you could run like at 10k (you said all day) at 5:20, you could could easily do a 5min mile. Or should be able to. Just do some more High intensity workouts. I would go 400s, I’d do 1k intervals, just to get used to the higher HR, since it feels like you’re going to die, doing a 1mile effort

This is also entirely correct. It's hard enough when you are a young person, but at this age it's much harder to bounce back from these sessions.

Youth is wasted on all the wrong people!

Stephenj's buddy is indeed very impressive, with a time that's the age-graded equivalent of a 4:06 mile. I hope to be that good at the same age! I still maintain that the workout as originally described is not doable by a 5min miler. To me, the classic 400 repeats with roughly equivalent time rest is a mile pace workout (see Jack Daniels rep/R pace), and I'd expect most people doing that workout to do between 8 and 12 reps. The high end of that is already a "very very tough" day. For the 5min miler, that's 74-75 seconds on a 400m track. Running 65 second 400m reps (4:21-4:22 pace for the full mile) is nuts. By comparison, 15 year old me could do 8 or 10 reps in 74 when I ran a 4:55 1600m, 18 year old me was probably in the range of 68ish for 10 or 12 for a 4:36 mile, and the me of today (30 years old) is again at that 10 to 12 rep count at 69-70. This only gets worse for older athletes, who tend to lose a higher percentage of their speed sooner.
In short, if you show me someone who can complete 12 x 400m in 65 with 200m jog, I would bet good money they currently run a sub 4:30 mile, and more likely closer to 4:20. My prediction for a 5min miler who tries that workout to actually split something like 65, 70, 75, 80+, give up/puke.

I agree. You have the fitness already.

vdot of 60 for the 2 mile of 10:40

and the equivalent mile time is 4:58


Time to train for sharpening. Oh, and that last 1/4 is really, really painful.
Be ready.

*(I trained for a year to do my fastest mile back when I was 47, but I am not a runner- doing lots of 400's and 800's will help get you ready for it, though)

good luck!!

I used to do that exact workout, we would do them in sets of 4. Something like 60 seconds between intervals and 2-3 minutes between sets. It was brutal, and someone shooting for a sub-5:00 doesn't need to do 12. 4-6 intervals is fine at 72-75 seconds each. The hardest workout I remember doing was 4x800 in 2:00. The rest was like 5-6 minutes and we'd jog a bit. Then again, we had three guys running 4:04 to 4:07. You really need to be careful doing speedwork like that. You'll hurt in places you haven't hurt before, including every fiber of fascia in your feet if you wear spikes or flats. 2-3 mile slow warmup and plenty of dynamic stretching before doing stuff like that!

I totally agree with your analysis. I was trying to leave the door open for outliers because someone always comes out of the woodwork and says they did it no problem. But yes, maybe 10x400 in 75 for a five min milers is more what I recall from back in the day for the five min squad.

As a more general comment, I think there are a ton of people who are not yet 50, who don't understand just how slow we get around that age. It is absolutely stunning! When I was in my 20s and running 4:10s for the mile I would have bet a million bucks I could have run sub 5 at 50 off the couch. I'm not even close.

I ran with a bunch of fast guys when I was younger. Almost none of them can break 5 at 50. People just get bloody slow and the drop off happens quickly (and of course life gets in the way for most of us)

People also forget that 5:30 is really far away from 5 for the mile. So a lot of people just assume that with a bit of extra training they will get there - it rarely happens.

People also think a strava or garmin or road race is accurate. There is a big difference between actually running a mile on the track and interpolating one's potential mile time from a road ten km for example.

If you believe the various masters ranking sites, each year only about 130 guys in the world break 5 in the 50-54 age group. And they are people who train specifically for this event.

I wish anyone luck who tries it, but I have personally seen way more people that assumed they would get there and didn't, than those that do.

I bet you can!

I recently ran a 5:55 on my 55th birthday at 5:55 PM (which is also the time of day I was born). Then I went to Vegas and bet 5s :)

Seriously though, while not a sub-5, this was done about two years post lumbar fusion surgery which has slowed me down a bit, mostly out of caution as opposed to aerobic capacity.

Good luck!

I tried this at age 48 and failed miserably.

My PR for a half marathon was 1:20:30.
I had occasionally run fast in triathlons also.

I am not convinced that the task was impossible.

But very, very difficult.

What I learned:
1) A mile is not a good distance for me. (Maybe not for older guys)
400, 800m- are actually OK.
10K, 13.1, 26.2- also
OK.
mile- sucks

2) The mile is a sprint marathon.
I would need to do marathon mileage with short intervals & tempos.
Instead- my training was good for the 800 (a marathon sprint).

3) I would probably need a real race. And a year of specific training.
(Not just a couple of months and the track by myself).

Thanks Mark. The 2x2mi was in 2015 during tri training on a random Tuesday or something. I’ve taken two long running breaks a since then.

E

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Never mind. ;) Best wishes should you choose this quest.

I bet you can do it, or come close. The one workout mentioned earlier (12x400 w/ 2 min off at 65) though was total crazytown - way, way, way too hard and also, probably too long and thus too high injury risk. I've been fit enough to run far sub-5 minute pace for 5000m and for me at my very fittest middle distance shape, that workout would have been a near race level effort. And I am also a 'diesel' slow twitch guy as well so I know where you're coming from.

My advice would be to stick with lots of 150m to 300m intervals (occasional 400's) and keep the quality workouts relatively short. Especially if you are a slow-twitch guy, you can and will improve quite a bit with consistent, short, quality workouts, and will keep your injury risk low(er). Examples - 10-12x150 hard (sub-mile pace) with generous rest, 12-16x200 at mile pace w/ 200 jog, 6-8x300 descend, etc. Some slightly longer workouts at ~3k pace are not a bad idea either but I'd focus on these as 3rd priority. Second priority - once every 7-10 days do hill sprints toward the end of an easy, short run. 2-4 of them, tops, 8-10 seconds on a steep hill, HARD. Jog down, wait a minute or two, repeat. Jog a a half mile to a mile to cool down. At first these will make you very sore.

Do all this for a couple months and you might be surprised how much your speed develops. Keep us posted with your progress!

No one mentioned doing a lot of pace work over 100m and 200m. Get the legs applying the force without the cardio distress that builds up over 400's and 800's. At least build up the foot speed without legs turning to rubber and then getting injured. Eric has a lot of ways to drive up the cardio load with swim and bike doing 75 second intervals in those sports (16x100m swim is approximately like doing 16x400m running from a cardio output angle). My gut feel is he can do it but he may injure himself getting there. Not sure that risk on the way to a fall Ironman prep makes sense. From what I recall, a mile uses 25% or so fast twitch fiber contribution, so this is a different world from an Ironman that is 99.99% slow twitch

I think so. NYRR had a couple of books out in the 1980s/1990s that were encyclopedic and had a variety of training plans including a very good one specifically for a 5-minute mile. I *think* it was in their Complete Book of Running, but I am not 100% sure on that title. But they only had 2 or 3 books out back then, so it should be easy to find. They have probably all been pdf'ed out to the web by now, so check the usual places like Scribd and Google Books.

The sub 3 marathon should prove an easier target than the sub 5 mile.

I hope you nail both. Please keep bumping the thread as you progress. I find these endeavours so inspiring and entertaining to follow.

I know a guy who has recently run a 65+ state record for 1500 metres with a 4:46. That's about 5:06 mile pace. He has a 2 year plan to take as many of the state, national and world records for 800, 1500, mile, 3000, 5000 and 10000 as possible. He needs to run 4:56 for the mile WR.

My goal is to podium at Kona before my 80th birthday... if I keep fit I might have a chance!

LOL

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Thanks for this, I'll check it out. In the meantime I'll try to do some fast 100s in addition to the 30" of 12.0mph at 4% incline I've been doing on the treadmill.

E

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60-64 world record holder did 4:49 at age 61. No reason you can't do a 5 being 11-12 years younger. I aqua jog with him each week as a run supplemental workout--shows you even a world record holder respects aqua jogging as a vital component of training and usage as recovery. So yes, you can do it.

Thanks! I’ll definitely swim as part of any 5min attempt.

E

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Well, the dude who holds the M55 world records for 1500 through to 10km is a bare-footer, so you might want to do that too! ;-)

Seriously though, the age records are so impressive. There's an particular awe and fascination with watching older athletes run seriously fast, when you simultaneously realise what is possible yet still incomprehensible.
List of world records in masters athletics - Wikipedia

Not swim, AQUA JOG. FWIW, Tim DeBoom used Aqua Jogging regularly while he was winning Kona (verified since we went to the same pool & I know him) & at one time considered the fastest marathoner in Ironman at his time of reign (or at least heard them say he was the fastest on the TV broadcast--not that the commentators were experts in knowing that necessarily).

Several of my team mates over 50 have run under 5 min this past year. One was 52 & ran 4:46 last season in USTAF meets (ranked #1 for his AG in the mile for most of the season). I would not say it is impossible since I watched one of them doing it no less than 3x of the ones I could make it to watch. Pretty inspiring to see the older dudes going those speeds. Lots of speedwork done...weekly.

Try to do this in the same year as an Ironman sounds like a bridge too far. At age 35 I bettered my uninspiring college PR while living in a big compound in Iraq with months of training and a couple of months of specific speedwork. At age 43 to 48 I coached my children in track and mostly just ran with the kids (minimal cycling and no swimming) and by doing that, I was always in sub-5 shape, but I lost about 10 seconds over those five years from 4:40ish to 4:50ish.
When I turned 50 I was hammering myself to set some post-50 PRs and getting ready to try out some college kids along with my son who was starting track--in the spring of 2020. Well, those meets went away along with my motivation.
At age 50 the speedwork required will really be tough on your body. When I was doing mega-volume in my 30s I could roll out of bed and run sub 5 with no speed, but that sort of speed leaves me crippled these days with out a patient, incremental build-up.
To your benefit, the new super shoes might be able to make the difference. I bought a pair just to see what it was all about and found it was good for about 2-4 sec per 400. With them, I approached 1:15 in a 400 repeat for the first time in years.
Your 2x2 miles at 10:40 is no joke but if you are heavier or injury prone, then recapturing that is going to be difficult without some very specific work.
Just because winter is less pleasant, at time, for cycling, I tend to focus on running more over the winter. You have nearly motivated me to give this another go.

THIS is good advice. You really have to prep yourself for race pace. I'll be 49 this summer and am hoping to run around a 5 min mile when I turn 50 and can compete in the Senior games. I am a consistent 18:45-19:00 5k'er now and did an early season (Jan) conservatively run 5:32 Mile at a middle/highschool meet that allowed Masters/Open competitors. It was fun toeing then line for the fist time in 30 years and getting smoked by tiny 12-14 year olds. Anyway I have found that my foot speed is terrible and the ability to maintain the requisite paces needed to get low 5's is even more terrible. To fix, I have been mostly working on being comfortable running sub 37.5 200's (sets of 10-12 with 1-1:25 walking rest and if I can't make my goal time the work out is over) and then working on pushing those to out to 300's. Some track days I'll do 6-8 400's in current (not goal) Mile pace + 3-5s with 2-3 minute rest. Some longer threshold work is also needed 800-1200 at estimated 3K race pace (slower than mile but faster than 5K). With all the speed work and intensity you probably will need to cut your mileage way down on your other runs. The advice I got was to cut my long runs down to 5-8 miles and recovery runs to 3-5. Another good bit of advice I got from the Masters Miler's FB group is to rethink the 7 day cycle. Instead of trying to squeeze in a long run, a track run and a threshold type run into 7 days moving to a 10 day cycle might be better to allow more rest/recovery days.

I really enjoy the intensity and shorter workouts that come with the Mile training. To me a 30-45 minute intense workout is more fun than a 2.5 hour long run. Just be careful about the intensity and start conservatively. Before I got some advice I was doing the 7 day cycle that consisted of a 10 mile long run, track workouts with middle/highschool kids where I was running way too fast, a 20 min threshold run at 5K race pace + 15s, plus longish recovery runs where I was ending with lots of strides. After 2.5 months of this I burned out and am now experiencing a bit of overtraining syndrome like symptoms (including struggling to break 20 in a recent 5k). I have way more foot speed now and could probably improve on my 5:32 if I gutted it out but it seems risky so I am bailing on the upcoming 2 track meets I had planned on racing at and am just going to focus on my long term goal over the next 1.5 years. We'll see what happens!

Good luck to you and enjoy the ride!

Mile predictor track workout via Nick Symonds. My track buddies did it with me and pretty damn accurate!... 400x8 at mile goal pace on 1 minute rest. Report back here your result :)

This is sort of my point - 4:46 is only 14 seconds under a 5 min mile and it is the national time leader.

I think since sub 5 was so easy at young age it seems like it should still be really easy, but I still maintain it's a lot harder than it looks.

Curious, did you go for the Sub 5 mile and sub 3 marathon this year? Lots of great feedback on the post!

Go for it. Our running group always had the goal of 2hours plus our age for the marathon and 4 minutes plus our age for the mile. A fast mile will help you get faster at all distances.

Sub 5 is never going to happen. I’m more likely to run a 2:37 marathon than a fast mile. I’m a diesel.

E

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Try my workout suggestion ! All sub 2:40 people can crack 5. Based on your 2:55 I am going to guess 5:20. Although Nick Bare went under 5 with a 2:55

Not likely at all. Don't know of any 2:37 marathoners that cannot run a single 5 minute mile.

Without question you can. I was able to run sub 6 doing 4x1 mile intervals on my last one at 50. Maybe one all out I could have gotten 5 low.

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How much would you say run speed falls off from early 20s to early 50s

This may be a good workout for faster Mike running

Dan King in CO ran 4:49 at 61. Granted it’s the world record for that age group but it’s also over 10 years older.

For comparison at 53 the WR is 4:19:59

https://timesofsandiego.com/...d-record-mile-at-53/

Holy crap!

From Mile trivia:

• The oldest person to go under four minutes was Eamonn Coghlan of Ireland, who was 41 when he ran 3:58.15. The oldest person to break five minutes was Derek Turnbull of New Zealand, clocking 4:56.4 at age 65. The oldest under six minutes was Scotty Carter of Massachusetts with a 5:57.2 at 75. The oldest under seven minutes was Harold Chapson of Hawaii with a 6:43.3 at age 80.

Double holy crap.

David Carr set the M90 WR this year, running 8:21.3

David currently holds the age records for 1500m, mile, 3000, 5000, 10000 and 2000m steeple, all set his year. He's running an 800 metre this evening, and it's a record he's been coveting, he was a little evasive when I asked him on Sunday if he'll be going for it tonight.

If the wind doesn't pick up too much, the weather looks favourable. I might just head down to the track to see if the magic happens.