I don't have any data to back this up, so I'm just speaking out my ass here. But I'd guess around 1:30/100m would roughly equate to 20k 5k. That would be a 22:30 swim (1500m), which is faster than most people can do, but slower than any real swimmer can do. Similar to a 20min 5k. But again, I'm just spit balling here.

using a fairly standard rule of thumb (4:1 run:swim distance equivalency) - a 20 min 5k translates to about a 24 min 1500.

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Ooh I like this. Let's go with this. Still 30s off but better than being 2 minutes off!

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
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A mile is not 1500... it's 1600m (1750yd) so that's a 1:20-30 minutes difference... Quite considerable. I'd say the equivalent of a 20 min 5k would be a 22:30ish mile time. Open water is a different though.

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What's your CdA?

the 1500 (or 1650 for my American friends) is often colloquiallly referred to as "the mile" though. We all know it's not really a mile.

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The definition of "good" is obviously subjective, but you've set a criteria of a 20 min 5k and seem to be looking for the equivalent swim performance. The men's World Record for the 5k (on a track) is 12:37. A 20 minute 5k is 158.5% of that. Men's World record for the Long Course (50m pool) 1500 is 14:32. 158.5% of that would be ~23:02. That converts to a ~22:38 1500 for Short Course Meters (25m pool) or a ~22:35 for 1650 Short Course Yards.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I like that analysis. I do wonder though if it's not totally fair to do straight % performance given the much greater resistance of water vs air (hence going 10% faster in the pool is exponentially harder than going 10% faster running in terms of energy required for the increase), but I suspect it's close enough for ballpark estimates.

If anything, it's confirmed that yes indeed I suck at swimming!

If there was a database of what the top triathletes can do in a 1 mile OWS, or maybe a 1500m pool swim, maybe that would be a good standard. I guess it's the same thing as asking what a top triathlete would do in a stand-alone TT or 10k run.

As it stands, there is a SWIMMER database that is kept up in real time. This database has the top times in EACH AG, both genders, in three sizes of pools (yards, short meters, long meters), for MANY years. Visit http://www.USMS.org and look under the "EVENTS" tab and find the top times tracker, and you can get an idea of what the top times are. I will venture to say that these times in the top X% are probably almost exclusively by lifelong swimmers, and not by triathletes. This might be a good idea to compare yourself, in absolute terms, with other athletes of your age and gender in the particular swims. Remember, however, that USMS swimming only covers 1650 yards and 1500m, which is short of a mile. You'd have to adjust your swim distance to get the right time for comparison, or extrapolate backwards.

I don't know if many of the top triathletes compare really well with the top individuals in the particular stand-alone disciplines. The top triathletes are just really good at putting all three together. I doubt that the top swimmers among pro triathletes would even qualify for Nationals in a pool swim, and probably might not in the USA Cycling TT or USAT track 10k. I'm not altogether sure that AG triathletes on the pointy end of the OC would crack the top spots in the USMS ranks. The really pointy ends of all three sports are really pointy and don't translate well to success in other sports. Andy Potts has seen some pretty good results, but not year-over-year results, even though he was a top 1% swimmer in college. Even so, he wasn't Olympic-caliber when it came to swimming, and he never came close to qualifying for the US team. Lars Jorgensen (sp?) did qualify for the Olympics, and he has/had the IMWC swim record, but where was he in the OC for that particular day?

Wasn't Potts 4th at Trials? Or Am I misremembering? Sheila T was an Olympian in the pool, and Carol Montgomery was a phenomenal runner back in the day...

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I get what your saying, and there is more of a technical component to swimming. But aero drag isn't the primary resistance force in running, gravity is. Once you have a certain amount of technical proficiency in swimming, the physical performance asymptotes are probably pretty similar. For what it's worth, a 22:35 1650y freestyle is just under the USA Swimming "BB" time standard (which means you're only in the top ~35% of your cohort)......for 12 year old boys. The BB cut for 12 year old girls isn't much slower at 23:07. A 22:35 is probably a 25th percentile 1650 performance in that cohort.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Oh boy, I knew that I was a slow swimmer. This just put it in a different perspective. Think I need to go to the cry like a little biatch thread...

I just had a look, and it doesn't even make the chart for the 13-14 boys...

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I don't think running is directly comparable with swimming, because technique component is much less important.
From what I can see there is a wast plateau where majority of non-swimmers land - around 1:30-1:40/100m

So if your time is 1:30, which gives 24 min for real human 1600 meters - that's a good time.

Just like breaking 20 in the 5k, sub 30 is of similar efforts for me. Hard to find a proper distance 1 Mile ows. Usually end up short. There is only one here in SD I have to wait for every year that is legit ( channel crossing swim). My best 30:04

I think many triathletes land there because that's where the rate of improvement for time and effort invested starts getting shallow, and the yields are better putting that time into running and/or biking. If they put their sole focus on swimming, they'd continue to improve. For IM/HIM, a 1% improvement in the bike is worth more than a 4% improvement in the swim. At a certain point, I can see why many triathletes throw in the towel on improvements and just swim to maintain.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I agree: it's the best ballpark I've seen. It conforms for me that I suck at running tho. Not that that is news to me

Those three are pretty good exceptions to the rules. Potts was 4th at USA Swimming Olympic Trials in the 400 IM, about .98% off making the team (behind the 2nd place finisher). Of course, top 4 at USA Trials is in itself is a huge achievement, and I can't even claim to have qualified for Trials, so maybe I can't talk. Potts was also a Trials qualifier in the 1500m, and he was 9th in prelims, just out of finals. Taormina was a gold medalist in the 4 x 200 FrR.

And at least in terms of Potts and Taormina, they were top national-caliber swimmers BEFORE becoming triathletes. I guess I was trying to say that I'd be pretty certain that no one in the midst of their triathlon career would be able to qualify for US Nationals in the pool now. Probably few people, if anyone at all who was a national-level swimmer-turned triathlete dropped triathlon and returned to swimming would have a chance being within 1-3% of the top swimmers.

I would look at the distributions of Age-grouper splits and OC in an Olympic tri. I'd say the extremely pointy end of the swim, discounting NYC swimming downstream in the Hudson, would be in the 19:00-21:00 range for AG's up to about 45 years. Take that 19-21, then subtract another maybe :30-:45 for it being a pool swim (flipturns plus it's the only event you're doing that day), and you get a pretty good indication of a good pool swim time. But note that the top USMS swimmers are still in the 17-18 range in those stand-alone pool events, and we're talking some pretty good distributions. If you want to compare what the top PRO triathletes are doing, there is absolutely no comparison to what the top swimmers in the world are doing.

I think most guys under 50 can break 20 in the 5k if they really want to and are willing to get rid of excess bodyweight. To me it seems like the biggest obstacle in swimming is technique. I personally have a hard time interacting with the water and it took a lot of videos of me and explanation from my coach before my spatial awareness in the water even slightly correlated with reality. Now that I understand what I am supposed to do, I still need to work on one or two things at the time to get it right. From what I see in the local pool there are a lot of triathletes who have the same problem(s) as I do.

So I guess it depends. Some non swimmers will never crack 2.00/100m, some will be able to do 1.20/100 in a short time. But unlike in running, except for some extreme cases, coordination, mobility and spatial awareness are limiters in swimming.

Bare mes 0.02$

Well...really it's 1760 yards or 1609 meters.

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#swimmingmatters
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The Doctor (#12)

As someone who has took up triathlon later in life and has had to learn to swim. The difference between running a sub 20 min 5k compared to holding 1.30s for a mile is so far away from each other for me. This is my first ever comment on here I'd like to just thank use all for the wealth of info I've gain from the forum..

A good swim time is one that wins your age group. It's informative and fun to see what really good 20 and 30 year olds can do but when I hit my sixties the only thing I really care about are the guys my age. I just checked out the masters records for 65-69 year olds 1 mile cable swim, 22:53. I still have some headroom on improvement!

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"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders

yeah, but a 20 min 5k is also makes you a below average runner among serious 13-14 boys.

For triathletes...
50m LC pool? Holding around 1.30's.
25yd pool? Around 1.25ish.

And then for a comparison, the 5k USATF record for M65-69 is 17:31. (Geez that' crazy fast!)

https://www.usatf.org/...=65-69&sport=LDR

Anyone want to say if a 22:53 is closer to a 20min 5k or a 17:31 5k?

Actually, very few people swim that "1-mile cable swim" and that record is not really appropriate for comparison to the USATF 5000 m record. We really need to compare WRs in the pool and on the track. The FINA WR for the 65-69 AG for 1500 scm is 18:54 (1:15.6/100 scm or about 1:08/100 yd), which is about 34% slower than the WR for 1500 scm of 14:08. The WR for the 65-69 for 5000 m is 16:39 (5:21.6/mi), which is about 32% slower than the WR of 12:37.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Evaluate as a percent of world class. Can be applied to any sport and score.

World Score / Your Score

Our ocean mile was won @ 23.16 by a South African beast. Canadian National-level club swimmers were also in that time 23.xx. The times vary a lot depending on current, wave action and course length.

If you are 70-80% of best or world class score that is pretty good for amateur or triathlete in my books.

Example running 14.5/22.5 for 5K nets 64% - running is tough.
14.5/20 is 72% I took 14.5 for 5K from Justin Kent local Canadian runner, won the West Van & Sun Run here.

Also can be applied to cycling times/speed, anything.

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Exactly, can be applied to any sport that is timed. I prefer to use the reverse of your calculation though, e.g. for the 20 min 5K, 20.0/12.62 = 1.585 or 58.5% slower than the WR of 12:37. Your method does have the advantage of giving a "score" though, which is comparable to test scores in school. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

If you mean 1500m, anything below 20mins is good.

You do not get many weekend warriors (so you can't use averages) in swimming and 18 year olds normally finish a 1500m in a pool between 16-18mins, which is significantly faster than I would see someone do in open water.

22mins is probably the equivalent of a 25min 5k

20mins is 21min 5km

18mins is sub 20min 5km

16mins is sub 16min 5km

Just a personal view, I can run 5km in around 19 minutes, and swim 1500m in around 23 minutes. In a triathlon I will usually place higher in the swim than in the run, so this makes me think that a 23 minute 1500m swim is "better" or at least rarer than a 19 minute 5km run.

Just my opinion, but I would equate a 20 minute 5km run, to a 25-26 minute 1500m swim.

Whether those times are "good" depends who else shows up!

I'm guessing that the "average athlete" is a lot better at running and cycling than swimming. Those of us who put in some effort or had the luxury of being able to swim everyday for fun developed muscle memory and a feel for the water that is hard to reproduce in the later years. So yeah, no weekend warriors makes for an easier field for those who still get in the water.

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"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders

For what AG? 20 min 1500 gets you ranked 5th on the 45-49 Canadian men’s rankings for 2018. There are a lot of guys who are faster than that who don’t swim the event, but even so, 20 mins is a pretty decent time, especially for someone without a youth swimming background. There are plenty of guys who are pretty dedicated who never crack the 20 min barrier.

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Very good point Jason. I'm not sure on mature swimming.

I was 20mins at 15 years of age, have never broken that 20min barrier my whole life tbh but I knew friends who would keep a 75sec pace per 100m for the 1.5km. So they were like 18-19mins at 17-18 years of age

Swimmers tend to get faster up until 22-25 and then start to slow down. HOWEVER!! 1.5k is borderline endurance and technique will see people keep going into their 40s i would suspect but can not prove without looking at the masters events.

I would take my times below 30 then. If you were swimming 6-8 times a week at 25. You should reach 20mins. I don't think triathletes train as much in the water.

I think I may be coming at this at too much of a purest pov

This is the one I think that's closest
The thing is in swimming,, a factor is swim background as a child or as an adult onset swimmer
To improve running as an adult is just easier than learning to swim from scratch.

Hmmm.

I'm a complete math geek, so, here goes:

The men's 5000m WR is just under 12:36.

How "good" is a 20min 5000m run?

Well, 12:36 divided by 20min is 63%.

What would 63% be in the 1500m swim?

Well, the SC WR is 14:08, divide by 0.63 and you get 22:26.

So, in my geeky math brain, a 20min 5km run is "as good as" a 22:26 1500m swim (in a 25m pool).

As a slight aside, my swim goals all revolve around the 59% level. :)

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I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.

excellent analysis, I think it produces a very solid answer that aligns well with intuition.

Agreed. I like the formulas that were brought to the question, comparing times to the world 5K record as compared to a 20:00 5K and so on.

But given that this is a triathlon site, I also think we should consider what the word "good" means in our sport. The closest we would get to a mile would be 1.2 miles in open water in a 70.3 and we could decide that "good" could mean something like the 66th percentile. Look up any age group that you care about.

In triathlon context at 1.2 miles, I think that we would often find that "good" is in the mid to high 30s for most age groups.

(I think that "good" can be a long way off from "winning" or front of pack in the swim).

Here’s a link to the USA Swimming National Motivational time standards for age group swimmers. If I remember right, the quad-A standard represents the top 1% of swimmers and the B is around the 40th percentile.

Hope this helps. https://www.usaswimming.org/...ionaltimes-top16.pdf[/url]

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Swimmers are silly. One length of the pool is a 'lap' and 1500 is a mile.

I once ran a 3:57.9 1500m.

Hey!! I'm a SUB4 MILER!!!

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I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.

Ok, lets compare apples to apples. In triathlon, best swimmers have a 16 flat PB in 50m pool. Best runners have a 28 flat in 10k. If you run 4m/km you are exceeding 43% their times. So, excced 43% of 16m and then you have 22m.50s for 1500m in a 50m pool. If think 22.30-23.00 is the figure more or less equivalent to run 4m/km.... this does not mean at all that if you run 4m/km you have the potential to swim that, or the inverse. Not all the 16m guys in the pool (Varga, Gomez, Polyaanski) can run 28 flat or 28.30. Of course, the best ones can (Luis, Gomez, Schoeman, maybe AB)...but the vast majority cannot. That´s the best of this sport...you can almost "suck" at swimming like Peter Robertson and win 3 world championships.

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Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Agreed. What really matters is how you do relative to others in you AG. At this point I'd be happy with under 28-29min (50+yo female) for a mile! Under 32min for 1.2.

It is relative. But with an honest mile, open water race conditions 28-29 is a great time. The top club (nationals) swimmers/open water masters champs do the mile in around 24min. We race every year in the ocean on Vancouver Island.

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Background in any event is key, (especially swimming) but I'd say most people think "pretty good" might be:

1500 swim: 24 minutes

20k bike: 30 minutes

5k run: 20 minutes

Summer Macintosh is 14. She went 16:15 LCM. : )

If I recall, Potts was 4th in 400IM

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I've been consistently under 17:10 SCM in 2017 (40), 2018(41), 2019(42) no opportunities in 2020 where I only had 1 meet and 800/1500 were not on offer.

For 2020 I was ranked 3rd in the World in M40-44 for the 400 IM...

For context my lifetime opener 1500m Free was a 21:35 (scm) at 11 years old.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

The low 17 minute range is excellent on a 1500. What was your 400 IM time?

4:51.32 (Feb 1, 2020).


I swam 4:50.81 in April 2017 when I swam 16:58 for 1500m the previous day. I had to rush to another pool to officiate my kids meet after that IM.

Solid race for early in the season without a taper. Just a few extra days off weights and some race prep sessions.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

That’s a very good time on a 400 IM. Just really good.

Really worked on my breastroke, it takes the pressure off the other splits and allows for a more even effort through the race. Growing up I front loaded the IM to make up for my breastroke.

200 IM - 2018 Nationals
I went super easy on fly, build back, long pullouts on breast and hang on for dear life in free.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

This almost makes me want to start running, just to see what kind of improvement I can get. I have little to no history of running. I have run one Half Marathon (2013) and a few half-ironmans. No serious running in the last 5 years. A few weeks I ran after my shoulder surgery last year. Would be an interesting self experiment some time. Maybe over the winter when it’s uncomfortable to ride, but fine to run.

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"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5