Should we start the rumors of the return of Ironman Canada?

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Matt

It's now officially done... https://www.castanet.net/...ge-triathlon-no-more

I'm shocked!

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I wonder if those that strongly advocated that Penticton wouldn't miss a beat with losing/giving up the IM brand and going with Challenge will finally admit they were naive and wrong? Probably not as many of them haven't been around here in a very long time anyways.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/.../IMC_rumor_P4122291/

Let's just stop with this crap.


Ironman CdA is dead. IM Whistler only survives because it has a 70.3 to keep numbers up.
Ironman in Penticton would have been on a slow decline (and maybe death) as well had it stuck with the brand.
Of course, it didn't help that Ironman scheduled races on dates to crowd Challenge out of the market.
But still, triathlon participation is WAY down.

By what measure? Because races aren't selling out like they did in the past? You don't think that has anything to do with the dilution of participants as WTC contunues to jam more races into the year?

Way smaller sized events - but it seems like the local races (Cultus, Oliver, etc) are all selling out
I think something more moderate will do OK in Penticton, but the days of like 3000+ people are probably over

Axel's Fondo gets 2600+ now for a cycling event. This event didn't exist 10 years ago. I'm going to assume that at least some of the Fondo participants have foregone a triathlon vacation for a cycling vacation in Penticton.

Single sport events seem to be on the rise at the expense of triathlon. Ultra running is booming right now too.

You'll have to go look for the stats from the national federations, but 2015 was peak triathlon and numbers are down since then, at least in North America.

Triathlon participation is way down, you are right about that. Catastrophically so, it would appear, at Challenge branded events here in NA.

Seems premature considering they just penned a new 3 yr contract with Whistler this summer.

^This. After Penticton got a renewed taste of large crowds at this summers ITU Multi-sport Festival, the thought of going back to rinky-dinky Challenge must have been too much to bear.

IM CdA, in it's final year, could only get 1100 athletes. It used to sell out at close to 3000. Participation was down catastrophically, it would appear.

I'm not about to gloat or anything because I wish no ill will on Challenge or any race for that matter. Having more races and more options is always a good thing. I have been extremely critical of Challenge when it comes to how they handled their entrance into the North American market. Their business model is just bad. I said from day one that the Penticton race wasn't going to be successful. I also said, even in that original thread you linked, that there were an awful lot of people that were way underestimating the power of having the Ironman name in the title of the race, and way overestimating Penticton as the draw. Challenge fell into that trap, the powers that be in Penticton fell into that trap, and a lot of ST posters thinking emotionally, and not logically, fell into that trap. I also predicted the race was done when they announced all the ITU stuff for 2016-2017. By the same token they could move the race from Whistler, and put it in Toronto and call it Ironman Canada and it wouldn't really change the registration habits at all. It's the branding way more than it's the location. I really can't see how people didn't realize that 5 years ago. I remember reading the initial press that Penticton was dropping Ironman and going with Challenge and my immediate thought was, "That's pretty fucking stupid!"

Me from 2012 in response to someone thinking the Challenge race would do as well as the Ironman race:

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This was so damn predictable I can only laugh at those who ripped me a new one 5 years ago when I said it was a huge mistake to lose IM in Penticton.

CDA spent many of the last 10+ either struggling to sell out or selling out after 8 or so months. Penticton always sold out immediately because anyone who did that race had a very strong attachment to it. It had that sweet combination of IM branding and a very unique location that is difficult for me to explain to those who never did that race.

Sure, branding definitely makes a big difference but I've done many IMs over the past 13 years and there was something very special about Penticton. For me, the only location that came close to Penticton was Kona but that had a completely different feel about it and for very different reasons.

Thanks, Chris

Ironman Coeur d'Alene could only get 1100 athletes...changing market.

Challenge Pentiction could only get 360 athletes/teams...changing market + decision to boot WTC and bring in Challenge.
(Half - 126m/89f, Relay - 32 teams, AquaBike - 27m/20f, Standard - 29m/37w)

This reflects how I kinda feel myself at the moment; jaded with training SBR for an Iron dist every Spring/Summer. I find myself eyeing-up Fondos & Audax rides more & more, plus the 'Ride Across Britain' also looks like an interesting diversion.

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29 years and counting

Ironman CDA's big drop in participation numbers had much to do with the date change, they moved it from late June when it was the only full for a month either way to late August around when most races are. Ironman Canada when it was in Penticton competed with how many full distance races? There are just so many full distance races in North America, and only so many people who will do them.

I never had the opportunity to race IM Canada before it moved on from Penticton so I jumped at the chance to race the ITU long course champs there last month and see what the big deal was ... except it wasn't. The water was nice, the scenery was beautiful, and most of the people were friendly, but the town certainly wasn't special. In fact, having done IM Coeur d'Alene, I would say that was a better venue. All I can gather is that Penticton offers something (?) that attracts some people...but what it is I have no idea. I'm glad I went to Penticton but once was enough, thank you.

My wife and I had a totally different experience. We loved the place and would go back for another multifestival race anytime!!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

That's not relevant Dave. You are saying you would go back for a specific event that is not likely to return for many years if ever. The question is will you go back next year for whatever race they put on to replace Challenge Penticton? Will you go back and do Ironman Canada if it returns to Penticton?

I do not do long stuff anymore so nope, no IM's for me. Too old. (Just hope they never bring Tahoe back :) )

So does not matter if Challenge or IM. I am a short course guy!!

And, I have zero desire to go to any location to race if only one event. Way too much money and way too little racing for me.
Getting 4 races in 9 days at Penticton was the best bang for the buck possible. One plane cost. One bike transportation cost. Just a few
more days of hotel costs.

One of many reasons I had zero interest in Rotterdam. Again, all that money for a single race. No way.

Even though I am qualified for 3 races in Denmark, and hope to get a ranking spot for the LC tri for the 4th, just struggle if I want to fly that much and
be out of NA. Plan tickets are only 1K round trip so that is not bad. Seems the hotel costs would be around the same as Penticton. Just not sure yet what
that weather might be like, and is it a "nice" place to visit? Bike shipment costs will probably be nuts so renting might be a better option. And need to see if they will do a Multisport Legend program like Penticton did.

Another big positive for Penticton is the way the community closed down their main roads for the races!!!! Was total first class, and it was in the heart of the town.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

So if they give you a participation award you would increase your chances of going. All along I thought participation awards only mattered to Millennials.

If you think my legend belt buckle I have is only a participation award, why do you not try to race 4 events at race effort in 9 days in Denmark?

I am getting my belt for my buckle on Sat so I can wear it. What will I be called then? :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Again, let me emphasize, unless you've done the race prior to 2012, you won't relate. Like most things in life, proper assessment is all about having a holistic perspective that includes the right ingredients and having IM there at the time is one of those ingredients. I've raced IMCDA 2x. It doesn't even compare to old IMC. Even my wife (a spectator) thought CDA was a joke compared Penticton.

Anyway, that's clearly my opinion based on my experience but I honestly haven't met a single person yet who liked IMCDA more than IMC. That said, I'm certain those people exist out there. If you're more of an uptight, overly-anal type of person (plenty of triathletes are) then IMC probably wasn't for you. It was a very laid back environment. Plus, the legacy of having IM in that town for 30 years was very evident.

Thanks, Chris

I like the comments at the bottom of that article...

Please NO MORE CLOSED ROADS for these annoying sports events.
WE DO NOT WANT YOU HERE
GO AWAY

Did you have to win the events, place well or just finish. I'm not taking away from your personal results, just curious if some-one was to finish DFL in all 4 events if they would also get one?

Again - not saying you didn't have a good week, just trying to understand the bar to get the award.

You've made my point Dave. Penticton is not special enough for you to return without meeting your unique conditions. I also like how Penticton closed the main roads, but if you read the comments by locals on the announcement about kicking out Challenge you will see that it certainly wasn't popular, and a segment of the community are tired of hosting athletic events. My wife witnessed several drivers that moved barricades and yelled obscenities at volunteers as they drove across the "closed" course in their cars.

Off topic: If it weren't for IM Norway, I would go to Denmark in a heartbeat just for the long course race. Doing just one event leaves more time for travel in a foreign country. And there are far more interesting things to see within a short driving vicinity of Odense/Fyn than there was in Penticton. You've got some time to make your decision, but I'm going to guess that in the end you will pass on the opportunity because you've already identified too many barriers (long flight, missing the neighborhood picnic, might not have legend award, Denmark might not be "nice", not sure if you can rent a bike there, etc., etc). That's perfectly fine since you apparently don't get as much out of travelling as I do ... it's your money and you need to spend it on what makes you happy!

?

I don't remember them doing that when it was Ironman. Or at least I seem to recall some white knuckle biking with big campers blasting past us at 50mph.

Your response shifted the emphasis on what is special from the venue to the race it once hosted. I was impressed how Penticton memorialized the 30 year IMC history in the park with a placard laid into stone identifying the winning man and woman from every year. But without having done IMC I could only say what I thought about the town itself and CDA was a nicer town with more to do for the family. That's not anal, that's not uptight, that's just my opinion. And make no mistake, IMCDA is nowhere near the top of the list of venues I've done. IMSA, IMSUI, IMRG, IMCOZ, and IM Kalmar were all vastly better than IMCDA, and orders of magnitude more fun than Penticton. Just as your wife was suitably unimpressed with CDA, my wife rated Penticton with a "meh".

Only in town. There were certainly cars - and big campers too - on the roads outside of town, but in most cases one lane was reserved for the athletes.

I liked the old (2011 and prior) bike course at CdA that went up around Hayden. IMC Penticton, in my mind, got a plus for the spectators on the final yellow lake climb, but minus for that stupid out and back section over the grooved concrete.

If you want to look at the event from half full, technically, you just had to finish 4 events, which unless you have tried, still is not trivial, but you probably disagree.

Even so, only 19 our of 3600 athletes got Legend status.

I am proud that I qualified for all 4 events I did for TeamUSA. No open waves. I bet only a few met that criteria of the 19.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, in any community there are always a few that are me, me, me. But when like 60% of the residents help, wow. And it brought in an amazing amount of money for the community. I know they will be trying to get it back again, and if so, I will be going.

Yep, you touched on most of the reasons I am struggling with Denmark. But the main one is what does my wife want to do, and at the moment, Denmark and Spain do not excite. She was SO excited to go to Penticton. We love Canada.

But what I want is what the wife and family wants to do. Was talking to one of my kids a few minutes ago about taking them and her comment we for that much money we could all go again to Disneyland.

Life is short. I love doing family stuff, so will see.

But yep, does not matter where a full IM is, or cost, health wise, I just know for me, not smart. I paid the price enough for the LC race at Penticton.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

@h2ofun: I have only done one race in Europe (Barcelona) but I really did feel like the attitude towards cyclists is different / more positive over in Europe.

I've also raced in New Zealand and Western Australia. I'd say overall if you do decide to race on a different continent, a little advance planning makes all the difference. Arrange a storage unit for your bike somewhere near the airport after the race so you can continue the rest of your vacation unburdened. And if there's a language barrier, consider paying the premium to use one of the sports travel companies.

(and I am by no means criticizing North American races - just giving a perspective on some of the travel races I've done)

left-side driving countries still throw me off :)

Makes sense.

Since my wife and I do not travel during these trips, we look at it differently than most.

I also love a place that speaks the language. Germany was tough for me. And since I am a picky eater.

I love the idea of the challenge to race 4 events again, but am a tight with money. And the thought of a 12 hours plane fight is not my favorite thing to do.
But, will see.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

WIth you 100% there, dude.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
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You should be proud. Assuming you qualify for 4 again - does not having an award take away from your accomplishment? That is the point I was making...

I liked the swim and bike course of Penticton much better than CDA, but the run course of CDA more, but my wife(doesn't race) was bored in Penticton and after two trips refused to go back- but she is always happy to go to Whistler or CDA

The old IMC was special. I spectated for over a decade, but for various reasons only competed in it once.

What always blew me away was how people were so quick to abandon the event that essentially just had a different logo on it the year after.
They loved Penticton, they loved the course...
Sure there were no Kona slots, but is that all people came for?

No, but I love chasing things. I know my friend who also get Legend would have not gone to Penticton and raced if not for the legend challenge. He raced two as opens.

I have qualified for 3 already, and should get the 4th via rankings again, so that is the pull for Denmark for me. BUT, I will only do what the wife wants to do. She will go for me, but not good enough. So, it might be more trips to Disneyland on my dime. :(

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Sure there were no Kona slots, but is that all people came for?

Most people race for either Kona slots or finding a course where they can get a PB.

Can one say lemmings?

But WTC does put on a show. I love doing their races

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

except the distance of your 4 races is still probably shorter than the distance of one "our" races.

Well lets see.

Race 1 Sprint du 5K run, 20K bike, 2.5K run
Race 2 Standard du. 10K run, 40K bike, 5K run
Race 3 Aquathlon 1K swim, 5K run
Race 4 LC tri 3K swim, 120K bike, 30K run

So total around 2.75 miles swimming, 112 miles biking, 31.9 miles running.

First 3 races at short course red line speed.

So, what distances is the "our" race? :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Anything to contribute to the topic, or just another h2ofun bragging fest??

..no fuckin' kidding, eh?? ...but, his uhmmm 'buckle' is, in all likelihood, shinier than most... well ...95%

Given that you go on about your advanced age, I am curious about how you 'race' these 4 events in 9 days? I'm half your age and would struggle to flat out race two events 9 days apart and wouldn't dream of 3. Even after a standalone 5k, I'm not race fit for 4 or 5 days.
Participation is a different kettle of fish however....

I absolutely love Penticton, and would move there in a heartbeat if the US fell apart (my wife is Canadian). I did IM Canada in 2010, Ultraman Canada in 2011, and Challenge Penticton in 2014. We drove through there last year on our way to Alaska, and stayed with friends. It's not Kona (I've raced there as well), but as a race venue, it's pretty awesome.

I'm sure part of my draw to Penticton is having friends who live there. Finishing Ironman in Penticton was something special. Even the smaller Challenge event had a wonderful atmosphere coming down Main Street. I feel the same way about Taupo, New Zealand.

Ive been around ST opinionating. And, i moved here to PEN 2013. And did 2 Challenge events here & volunteered at all others. I also did ITU & have raced an IM in that time.

I admit I thought Challenge could work until the city then turned it to a non profit society. They implemented exactly what got them broke pre Graham Fraser in early 90s. They then gave full refunds year 1 and lost 500 registrations to Whistler. These sequence of decisions And in the subsequent 5 years participants are down across board, races are closing...sport contracting, put this race down.

This said ITU festival a big success. Mike Brown still committed to tri in Penticton. Just needs to get away from an expense line with no return (license fee of Challenge)

I predict cool things coming 2018 & beyond!

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@rhyspencer

That's kind of a summary of the $64k question. The psychology around this one is rather fascinating to me and not one I pretend to really understand.

I assumed I was somewhat unique because Kona was admittedly important to me and I was incredibly fortunate to be competitive there. I'm not entirely clear as to why IM had and still has such attraction to those who could care less about Kona. Possibly it's just a chain of "connections" where the MOPers are connected to the FOPers and the FOPers are connected to a goal like Kona. Mind you, it clearly works in both directions too, i.e., FOPers are also very dependent on the camaraderie with MOPers, et al.

Thanks, Chris

Luck. But also seems it could be training. I keep my weight at race weight all year. And I try to train 2 to 3 hours a day all year long. But the number 1 thing is staying healthy.

Plus a lot of it is mental! When I did the triple at Bend, meaning, 3 races in 24 hours, if I were to just listen to the body, I was toast after 1 race. But mentally, I just got to the starting line again and was just able to do it. Now, once the races are done, I am toast, so this again might be the mental part.

Give it a try, is a lot of fun.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I tried to tell you guys 5 years ago that it was all about the M-Dot logo being attached to the race. The tea leaves were there, you just needed to know how to read them. Once again, not gloating but I struggle to see why you guys struggle or struggled to see that. The M-Dot logo is that powerful.

Kona slots are not really a draw but for maybe 20% of the field. 5-10% that realistically have a chance on a given day, 10-15% delusional people. The other 80% just want to race an Ironman event.

I feel the same way about Whistler as many of you do about Penticton. I love Whistler. It's one of my favorite places on the planet. I'd be super bummed if Ironman Canada moved to another location. I know it basically wouldn't miss a beat when it comes to registration numbers for the new IMC. I also know Challenge Whistler or Rev3 Whistler or whatever wouldn't be a success.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

10x

Done both IMCdA 2009 and IMC 2011. IMCda was beautiful as it was my first IM but absolutely no comparison to the Penticton IMC. I've done IMWI 2x as well but IMC Penticton holds a very special place in my heart that I wish I could race again. Everything about the experience was epic, especially 1x swim, bike and run legs. Haven't done a IM for 6 years (family, job, dog, etc.) but I'd drop everything and anyone in a heartbeat to do the IM-branded IMC Penticton again.

And for me, it is about it being an IM-dot branded race - Challenge and Rev3 simply don't hold weight with me.

I totally agree Penticton is an amazing place to race at. Hoping the ITU multisport festival is back in 5 years.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

My first IMC '97. Penticton was a special place back in the day... on race week. Businesses totally shut down on race day, the throngs of spectators in town, on Richter / Yellow Lake, Steve King, the scene outside the Hog's Breathe / and signing the race poster. Raced it 4 or 5 times, spectated probably just as many times.

I remember people crossing the line and going to sleep outside the hotel on the sidewalk to make sure they got in the next year. My last race there in 2011, there were over 3000 people, after an immediate sellout onsite.

I hear ya.

Steve King is an AMAZING announcer!!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Selling out? Seriously?

For that to be the case would have required a max limit of 220 athletes at the Oliver Half Iron (Results here) and a max limit of around 60 athletes Cultus Lake (Results Here).

Oliver had around 1,200 when I first did it 6-ish years ago.

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https://www.pbandjcoaching.com
https://www.thisbigroadtrip.com

the small races are definitly not selling out!

that said, cultus lake was closer to 500 participant..... over 5 or 6 races on the same day. 60 is low balling ;)

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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60 in the half.

I didn’t count spectators.

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https://www.pbandjcoaching.com
https://www.thisbigroadtrip.com

triathlon here ( west coast) certainly seems to be on the decline. Yet there is lots of interest in the extreme type tri's. Maybe the draw for many was/is doing something really tough and unusual. The courses now are easier/more common. The bragging rights are diminished. If you want demand create scarcity. when there were only a handful of IM events in NA there were line ups and it was something just to get in let alone finish it. The lure is lost when the experience is common perhaps.

This probably deserves a new thread but Super League will take the traditional end of August date in Penticton:

https://triathlonmagazine.ca/...athlon-heads-canada/

I wonder what kind of crossover in participants with the Kelowna Apple the weekend before.

Sounds like a win for Penticton. Super League has to carry a lot more panache than Challenge.