I should have the HED stinger by wednesday. I've ridden, the 07 zipp disc, blackwells, and the old HED 3 Disc.

Not the sub 9 though. i'll let you know how it compares to the others.

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Grant
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I find it interesting that people always bring up the price difference between Zipp and HED, but nobody ever discusses *why* the price is different. I often get the sense that people honestly think that they are the same wheels, but one company can somehow get away with an extra 100% in price. One of the really, really, really big factors is the hub. Zipp hubs are among the very best in the business, made in the US to extremely precise tolerances as opposed to HED's hubs which are made in Taiwan; I do know what their manufacturing tolerances are. Another quite interesting thing is how the hub is centered in the disc. That's not such an easy thing to achieve as you might think, which is why HED's disc are simply a spoked wheel with a full cover, it is much easier to make. Centering a hub in a disc is a very complex problem, and one that Zipp solves very well, though at a significant investment. It's a single machine that does this - and only this.

I would be very, very interested to see not only how the wheels compared in grams of drag, which is one measure of performance, but also, more importantly in my opinion, how they stack up in terms of watts to spin a given speed. The second measurement factors in drag, but also takes the hub into account. Aerodynamically, I would expect the wheels to be quite similar. Maybe the dimpling helps a bit. Maybe one company's rim profile is slightly more advantageous. But from a performance standpoint in terms of grams of drag, I'd wager they were quite close. After all, HED had the Sub9 to refer to for quite a while before the Stinger disc was released. But I wouldn't be at all suprised if the watts to spin were quite a bit different than what the drag profile of each indicated.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

have you found the lateral stiffness of the sub-9 to be a problem? IIRC a lot of bigger riders complain about this during cornering and out of the saddle efforts.

How much do you really think the difference is in a pair of hubs? I'd guess it's minimal for most decent quality hubs as it doesen't take a lot of watts to spin the wheel itself to begin with. Aerodynamic performance of the wheel is way higher up the list.

To the op, I think you should maybe take what both Jordan and I say with a grain of salt since we're sponsored by Zipp and Hed respectively. Having said that, the overall performance of the wheels are probably very close. The bottom line is that regardless of the manufacturing cost the end result is that you have two wheels with very similar performance where one is half the price. How much it's worth to have a wheel with a more expensive build process is up to you of course.

And one last benefit of the Hed Stinger disc is that their design allows for a stiffer wheel which is important for some riders (including me).

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

I'm with Bjorn on this one, How much can the differences between the hubs really make? Assuming the hub does make a difference is it really a 700 dollar difference. I have a hard time believing that it is.

Hence the reason i chose the stinger. Aerodynamically its very close/better/worse then the sub 9. Depending on whose numbers you belive at a fraction of the cost. Seems to make sense to me.

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if you really want to nitpick, you could get a Stinger 9 and get ttflywheels.com to make you a disc that is still cheaper than a stinger disc and probably lighter too.

Well sure i could buy a box rim and send it to them too that doesn't mean its worth a shit in the aero department compared to the sub 9 or stinger

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I don't know how to define a 700 dollar difference. But I also don't think you should necessarily say that you don't believe it's a 700 dollar difference either. It may not be for you, but then again, it might be since by that same logic, a Mavic Open Pro on a good hub (chris king, for example) and a Wheelbuilder cover is more than 700 cheaper than a HED Stinger disc. And I don't really think that, performance wise, there is much difference between that wheel and either of the wheels mentioned. Or, put another way, I'd submit that the difference between HED and Zipp hubs could easily be equivalent to the difference between a Stinger disc and a wheelcover wheel.

Hub quality is not just about drag, but also about stiffness and several other "ride quality" related factors. Look even with Zipp's own wheels the improvements between the 08 and prior hubs and the 09 hubs is marked.

Valuation is always a tricky argument. The Stinger disc is way more than even the Stinger 90 + a wheelcover would be. That's why I try not to play the valuation game. My point is that I believe Zipp's hubs are better than HED's hubs. That's part - a big part - of where the price difference comes from. So they are not the same wheel. Which wheel is a better value? That's totally up to the individual. But when you consider overall performance, BOTH wheels are way more expensive than just putting a cover on your existing training wheel, something to keep in mind, especially if that rear training wheel has a powertap. A wheelcover over a powertap wheel is a much better invesment than either of these wheels, if you really want to bring it down to a value judgement.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Yeah, but the price difference between a stinger 90 + wheelcover and a Stinger disc is way less than the difference between Stinger disc and Sub 9 and you actually do get noticeable improvements in weight(more than 300g) and build quality with Stinger disc vs Stinger 90 and cover. Regarding a regular rim with cover it's not really comparable becuase you don't get the same rim shape and that's something that could actually make significant difference in aero drag.

As for stiffness of the hubs and the "other ride quality related things" I don't know that it matters considering the whole Stinger disc setup is stiffer anyway.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

pls explain the large difference in cost that still exists when they both offer Powertap Discs? i.e. stinger PT disc versus sub 9 PT disc? I have had 2 zipp discs- a dimpled one and the model before that- with their wonderful hubs- and both were not as true as my old standard HED disc (no longer made)- OR my powertap JET disc- that is dead on true and light. Also- the JET PT bump disc DOES fit in my P3.

PLUS the JET PT disc is MUCH stiffer laterally than both the zipp discs and the old style HED disc (which they no longer make).

That's absolutely fair. I'm not necessarily saying it is a $700 difference, since that's a personal decision. It's absolutely your prerogative not to think that Zipp wheels are worth more than HED. I disagree that the difference between hubs is negligible, based on my own experience. As for centering a hub, it depends on how you build your discs. I find it interesting that HED now chooses to make their discs without molding the hub into the center of the wheel. That being said, I don't know if the hub shell was ever molded in, even on the old HED discs; it seems that it could have been glued in after the production of the carbon form. For obvious reasons, I have a lot more insight into the manufacture of Zipp's wheels. I'm just giving some insight into the cost of the wheels, since I think there is a relatively common misconception that a Zipp disc and a HED disc cost the same to make but that one companies somehow gets away with gouging the consumer for an extra $700. Now, whether you think the increased price is overpriced or underpriced based on the value is up to you. But one thing I don't buy (to borrow a phrase) is that you have any actual insight into the production costs of either company, and that as a result, your assessment that Zipp commands more "because the [sic] can" is pure speculation.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

A Zipp hub is more expensive to make than a HED hub. The wattage savings maybe one or two watts or more, but it a savings. The wheel itself is more expensive to make since they do not take shortcuts that HED does. Whether it is worth the price for maybe 5 to 10 seconds over a 40K, only the buyer can decide for himself.

Its like buying a 911, for $76K, you get entry. Not bad for 4.7s for 0-60 mph and 180 mph top speed. But for for $194K, you get 3.6s and 204 mph. Is the extra $118K worth the 1.1 second decrease and 24 mph top speed increase? Only the buyer can decide for himself.

That's actually pretty easy. HED's PT discs are spoked PT wheels with a carbon cover over them. That's a relatively easy process to do. Zipp molds their hubs into their discs, which means they had to make a custom hub that housed the PowerTap torque tube & electronics. So HED's PT discs have a PT hub at the core, which is a decent or pretty good (depending on whether you have the newer or older style axle) Taiwanese made hub. Zipp's PT discs have the exact same Zipp internals as their other discs (there is absolutely zero difference in the mechanical workings) but they incorporated PowerTap's electronics. Zipp designed this whole hub from the scratch, since mating their mechanicals to the PT electronics was obviously not straightforward. But at the end of the day, you get the exact same hub quality as you'd get if you had bought a regular hub.

I have four Zipp discs. Each one of them is perfectly true. I've seen a ton more, and I've yet to see a disc that is not true, but that is simply my experience with Zipp wheels, not a statement of universality. In all cases, I'm sure everyone has horror stories about HED, but not Zipp. And somebody else has had a terrible experience with Zipp wheels, but not HED. I only have my own experience and that of people that I know to draw on. That's obviously not everyone in the world.

If the Jet PT bump disc fits your P3, a Zipp clincher disc likely would as well. The variance in terms of whether or not the disc will fit is related to the wrapping of the lug joints in the P3 where the rear triangle is attached to the seattube lug. The amount of carbon wrap and paint there is quite variable. That is why the same disc will fit on some P3s but not on others. It is a function of the frame, not of the wheel. The variance in Zipp's disc wheels is, IIRC, .004 of an inch, so it's not wheel variance that causes problems with the fit on the Cervelos. I am also not sure of the max width of the Jet bump as opposed to the 900 clincher bump as opposed to the Sub9 bump. If an 808 fits in the back of your p3, a 900 clincher disc will as well.

As for lateral stiffness, is that your opinion or is that from something published?

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

pls direct us to data that show's it's worth 5-10 seconds over a 40km. HED's data says they are more aero (not surprising)- but it sounds like you have independent data or are drinking zipp koolaid

Or maybe you drank the HED Kool Aid. I though we have already discussed on other threads how the data on the HED website does not match any other data in reference to Zipp wheels. At least the Zipp data has been consistent with magazine data. Cannot say that as far as HED data.

The only problem with this is with cars its alot easier to see the gains.

Cars have engines and you measure them by KW, torque, top speed. 0-60mp/h
With bikes its not that simple

It might be true that producing a Zipp wheel is more expensive that the production of a Hed wheel, however I also feel that Zipp's customers are paying for a massive marketing budget. I fairly sure that the massive ammount of money they have spent to get "all" the pro-tour teams on Zipp wheels plays a major factor in the difference.

last time I checked, which was while watching the GIro a few minutes ago, THE BEST PRO TEAM (there is no debate) was riding Bontrager/Hed wheels. Not to mention the teams that ride Campy/Lightweight/etc wheels (LPR, Liquigas, Milram)

It's called a sponsorship. What pro teams ride says very little about which equipment is best. It says a lot, however, about which manufacturers are paying/equipping them.

i too would also like to be pointed to the results that you have seen(or not) that zipp hubs will be 5-10secs faster over 40k than hed
you blown the trumpet of zipp wheels is fine but when you make claims that they are better than another wheel i think it is valied for somebody to ask you to prove it instead of just accepting your word as bible
i do think that hubs can make a difference but havent seen prof that zipps are better than hed i know my jet disc hubs spin forever

Don't know if this helps but I found it pretty interesting. Not to say HED doesnt do this but still interesting video on how it all comes together.

http://www.testrider.com/...t=player&video=3

...I think you might be off by an order of magnitude or so...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Bingo, that and because they can. Having known people who work for zipp and been off and on of the products for years. The extra cost is all marketing and because they can. When the prices jumped up a couple years ago is was all because they could. They were selling discs as fast as they could make them so they jumped the price up and they still sold them as fast as they could make them.

I highly doubt you'll be able to tease out anything that will let you say a Hed or a Zipp wheel is better than the other overall. It's depends on to many factors, one wheels may work well in one frame another may work better in an another frame.

One thing to remember and it applies to bike, or cars, or nuclear physics, just because it's the fanciest coolest engineered way to do something, doesn't mean it's the best way to do something for a given application.

Hed's Web site claims:

"We’ve been making our own hubs at Hed for since the beginning, and they’ve always been very good – but in 2009 they go way beyond We’ve lavished attention on them and believe they’re the best in the industry." (http://www.hedcycling.com/...s/Hed_sonic_hubs.asp)

And I'm still surprised at so many threads that imply that something made in Taiwan is understood to be of suspect quality. Taiwan makes parts for Boeing, Airbus, not to mention hard drives, where the bearings actually spin at 10K+RPM and manufacturing defects actually result in stuff blowing up. Taiwan can hold its own in manufacturing. Not to say that a lot of crap isn't also made in Taiwan, but the days where you could dismiss stuff made in Taiwan out of hand ended sometime back in the 90's.

I was more making the implication that Taiwanese hubs are cheaper, not necessarily worse, than hubs made in the US. I have no issue with Taiwanese made product, but if you trying to tease out why product X costs more than Y product which is "similar," then where things are manufactured is a part of it. Apparently, though, in this case, the location of production is not a factor. I stand corrected on that. I suppose for some things, though, I am still biased. I worked restoring vintage and historic race cars for about 6 years as a summer job. We got all our bearings from SKF or FAG. I don't think we ever used a Taiwanese bearing. I guess that sort of mentality is still lodged in there somewhere, as much as I know it isn't really right.

As for the claim on the HED website, I do find that a bit odd since when they first reintroduced the Stinger's in 2004, they were built on rebadged American Classic hubs, which are of course made in Taiwan. I know this because I owned a pair of these wheels. I wanted to swap out the freehub, so I wrote to HED and said "your hubs look exactly like AmClassics hubs. Are they? And if so, can I change the freehub bodies in the same way?" The answer was "they are AmClassic hubs and yes you can." Not saying they weren't making some hubs in the US, but HED has definitely made wheels with hubs that were not made by them. It does appear that ALL their wheels are NOW made on their own Sonic hubs, but that certainly hasn't always been the case. I just bring this up because I find it odd because that if they were making there own hubs and they were really good, why didn't they use them on the 04 Stinger 50s?

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

   

Does anyone know why the Scott Plasma2 which in Australia is a build only that comes with a 1080 and 808
however these wheels don't come with zipp hubs, oh no they come wth DT swiss hups. what does this mean

Jordan,

I agree that Taiwanese products are not any worse than products produced elsewhere. It is just a fact that manufacturing of products are being globalized, and in my opinion it is more important that Hed (or Zipp) are strictly controlling the quality of the manufacturing overseas, than that they perform the manufacturing themselves. It also seems like Hed has done numerous changes to their hubs this last year, but I don't know enough about the changes that I can argue pros or cons here. However, it would be interesting to know if you agree that Zipp's marketing budget plays a major role in the price difference between the two products???

Ragnar

Here's what I will say about marketing. One is "in general" and the other two are as it applies to Zipp.

1) Zipp has a far, far larger engineering department than they do a marketing team. Do you have any real idea as to how much Zipp spends on marketing (including sponsorship, etc.) and how that number compares with what they spend on engineering? And, are you sure that in terms of percentages, that it is less than HED? I don't think you do. Rather you see bigger ads, more exposure under pro tour teams, etc. with Zipp than you do with HED. But Zipp also sells more wheels. And is a bigger company. Is Microsoft's advertising budget bigger than Apple's? Yes, but it's a bigger company.

2) As a rule, marketing should offer a RETURN on investment. I.e., marketing is what you use to sell things. Take Lew wheels. Lew wheels are really, really, really expensive. Same with Lightweight wheels. Let's imagine they invested in a well thought out marketing campaign that doubled their sales. Do you think that the cost of that marketing campaign will overrule the reduced cost that should accompany that sort of increase in volume. The more wheels you sell, the more carbon you can buy, the more raw materials you can buy, the more you recoup your investment in machinery, etc.

3) In Zipp's case, they've settled on a price point that it seems the market will bear. They could obviously make the wheels better, look at the ZedTech wheels with ceramic bearings, dimpled hubs, and impact-formed spoke holes (instead of drilled), but those wheels would be more expensive. So, Zipp could make the exact same wheels as they made in 2004, and use the marketing to sell those wheels, and drive the price down. So you could get a 2004-technology 404 today for a cheaper price or you could have an improved 404 at roughly the same price. Some companies (WalMart, for example) use growth to drive down prices while offering an equivalent product. Other companies roll that money back into development. "How many features can we cram into a wheel costing $X?" That is the question they are always asking. I know because I've been a part of those discussions. It's not, "how much can we get for a wheel that has Y features?"

Let's take HED as a counter example. Look at the H3 Deep. That wheel would (or *should*) be lighter, stiffer, and and equivalently aerodynamic if, instead of sticking a Jet90 fairing onto a H3 (which already had a deep-section rim that you are covering over), you simply cut a new mold that had the 90mm rim profile instead of the ~50mm profile of the standard H3. However, the cost of doing that would be substantially higher than just bonding on a fairing. Personally, I'd rather have that wheel purpose built as a 90mm wheel, but I know that would cost more. HED probably also feels that they have a price point that they want to operate to, and a fairing on the H3 is an easier way to hit that target.

So no, I don't see marketing as the major driver here. Marketing allows Zipp to sell more product which allows them to develop better products. If you don't advertise, you don't sell. And if you don't sell, you can neither make better products or cheaper products.

As a final note to your "...(or Zipp)..." Zipp doesn't make anything overseas that they oversee. Everything is made in the US, except for things that they buy direct from suppliers - like bearings, which they get from Switzerland, or spokes, which they get from Sapim. The one exception to this is the Zipp Tangente tire, which is made for them by Vittoria on a dedicated mold for that they designed. This is also excluding soft goods like water bottles, transition bags, etc. I'm talking about core products here - wheels, aerobars, cranks, stems, etc.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

and still i wonder when the proof is goin to come that zipp makes much better hubs than hed hence the $700 difference ????
the thing is now we have hed claiming to have the best hubs in the market ?????
me i think i will stick to the bargains of hed rather than buying the zipp line of dimples and then covering them with their stickers or i almost forgot their superior hub
:-)

Zipp publishes all the information about their hubs. Maybe the onus really ought to be on HED to say something other than "we use ABEC 5 bearings and have improved our hubs for 2009 by tightening up our tolerances." Zipp has written a great deal about their hubs. Now, you are welcome to perceive that as marketing, but it's still out there and available.

I also find it really funny that people pick on the stickers over the dimples. Not that long ago, Zipp put the stickers underneath the clear coat, so that the dimples were fully exposed. They had all kinds of complaints from people about 1) not being able to remove the stickers for that "stealth" look and 2) the yellow tint that the stickers got from being underneath the epoxy. So now they put them on top - make them removable - and people complain that the stickers cover the dimples. If people really cared about what was fastest, they would have left the stickers underneath.

HED claims to have the best hubs in the industry. Zipp actually provides some data to support their own claims.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Just so I understand this correctly, the time savings quoted by these manufactures is purely the aero savings right? This doesnt include what you could save by the use of a higher quality hub?

Zipp has written a lot about their hubs, but let's face it--there hasn't really been much besides 'saves up to one watt' in terms of a quantifiable benefit. I'm really curious about the testing protocol which determined this, so if you have a link, I'd love to see it--seriously.

That said, while I don't doubt that a brand new Zipp hub may save 'up to one watt'(OK, I do doubt it actually) over competing hubs, I'm pretty curious about how a 3 month old Zipp hub ridden in varying conditions would compare? I know that the bearings feel pretty crunchy after that, and there's so much play in my hubs that the rim is actually rubbing the brake pads during hard accelerations--on the FRONT wheel (as well as the back), and there's no provision to adjust out the play (besides replacing the bearings). There goes my one watt savings... (I'll save you the keystrokes-I know they've addressed these issues for '09).

I agree with you that their engineering costs and manufacturing costs are higher than HED, and this drives up their prices. I never got the 'marketing thing', as it appears to me that as a % of sales, it appears at least that HED spends at least as much as Zipp.

I have no pig in this luau, I have wheels from both companies and I like them both--but claming that the hubs are 'faster' seems a little specious. Personally, I think the Dura Ace hubs put them both to shame.

You and me both! ;-)


If you don't doubt it, I think you might be off by an order of magnitude or so as well...



Aaah yes...the "joys" of cartridge bearings with no play adjustment...<rolleyes>

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I think your order of magnitude is correct. Comparing even between Zipp's steel bearings and ceramic bearings. Also comparing the changes between Zipp's 08 and 09 hubs, the new Zipp hub actually allowed them to drop the spoke count on the wheels on all their wheels to 16/20. So that's yet another way that hubs can affect the overall package.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp